LD Bowen Byram - Vancouver Giants, WHL (2019, 4th, COL)

[Avaholic29]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

Your sample size is 1, maybe 2 games and you are going to say Byram was overrated and shouldn't of been ranked higher than heinola? Lmao come on man, atleast lie so you don't sound ridiculous

 

[wetcoast]

Bowen needed to dominate for us to keep him up, Connor Timmins has been a revelation (offensively and defensively) and took that final spot. On a team with a worse blue line, he would have gotten the 9 game try out at least.

Like Ottawa?

BTW he is going to be a great player for the Avs and now the giants are the best bet from the OHL for the memorial cup this year.

 

[wetcoast]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

What are you even talking about?

What recent disappointments?

Perhaps Olli Juolevi?

Bryam is the real deal, this post is going to look embarrassing in the future.

I like Heinola as a player but Byram was easily the better prospect in last years draft.

 

[Goulet17]

 

[Goulet17]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

 

[Pip]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

Clueless

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

Try to actually watch him... obviously you have no idea what so ever you are talking about. What a clueless and embarrassing post this is.

I'm thankful scouts dont make their decisions after 1-2 games. So so embarrassing man

 

[Zaddy]

Try to actually watch him... obviously you have no idea what so ever you are talking about. What a clueless and embarrassing post this is.

I'm thankful scouts dont make their decisions after 1-2 games. So so embarrassing man

I mean, if we're going off pre-season he's not wrong. Pre-season in general doesn't mean much and doesn't predict future success but I think it was at least a little bit noticeable that guys like Heinola, Björnfot, Harley, Söderström all seem to have outplayed him so far and according to scouts and media guys pre-draft none of those guys were even close to Byram and not in the same tier as prospects. I think those guys are already starting to prove the scouts/talking heads wrong. The gap between those prospects and Byram was mostly imagined. If you only look at offensive upside, sure there's a bit of a gap, but there's more to hockey than putting up points, especially when it comes to defensemen. You have to be able to make quick decisions under pressure, you have to be able to move the puck, you have to be able to defend. Byram is lacking in these areas and it was pretty glaring in the games I watched.

 

[Zaddy]

Two assists in his first game back in the WHL yesterday.

What were the assists like? Because that clip really doesn't say much. Everyone already knows he's great at skating the puck up the ice and creating scoring chances that way. I would've been more impressed if I saw a long stretch-pass for a scoring chance than that, but it seems like his default is to skate it up the ice. That's not going to work nearly as often in the NHL.

 

[Dominance]

What were the assists like? Because that clip really doesn't say much. Everyone already knows he's great at skating the puck up the ice and creating scoring chances that way. I would've been more impressed if I saw a long stretch-pass for a scoring chance than that, but it seems like his default is to skate it up the ice. That's not going to work nearly as often in the NHL.

The best transition defensemen in the NHL are those that excel at skating the puck to pressure and setting up the attack. Byram does this extremely well. I am consistently confused by how you criticize and question as weaknesses areas that I see as his strengths. I don’t know how you’ve come to the conclusions you possess, but I’d ask you to reassess them. Watch an entire Giants game. Suggesting that he has decision-making problems with the puck (as you have in the past) and is limited to rushing the puck himself (as you stated above) is just so vastly at odds with everything I have seen over the past couple of years.

 

[Zaddy]

The best transition defensemen in the NHL are those that excel at skating the puck to pressure and setting up the attack. Byram does this extremely well.

Really? How long does it take to skate up the puck vs feathering a long pass? Which is the quickest and most efficient option? I don't know how you can say that the best transition defenseman are those that skate the puck up. Transition is literally about moving from defense to offense as quick as possible, that's not what Byram does or at least not 'excel at'. I'm also not sure if his skating is good enough to consistently carry the puck up like that. It's not bad but it's not elite, like say Quinn Hughes. Easier for a guy like Hughes to get away with / succeed more often with those types of plays than it is for Byram.

I am consistently confused by how you criticize and question as weaknesses areas that I see as his strengths. I don’t know how you’ve come to the conclusions you possess, but I’d ask you to reassess them. Watch an entire Giants game. Suggesting that he has decision-making problems with the puck (as you have in the past) and is limited to rushing the puck himself (as you stated above) is just so vastly at odds with everything I have seen over the past couple of years.

I try and re-assess my stance every single time I watch him, like I do with any prospect but particularly those that I am harsh on, to see if they will change my opinion, but he consistently does the same things every game, which means my opinion is not going to change until I see evidence of him being good at the things I'm criticizing him of.

 

[Dominance]

Really? How long does it take to skate up the puck vs feathering a long pass? Which is the quickest and most efficient option? I don't know how you can say that the best transition defenseman are those that skate the puck up. Transition is literally about moving from defense to offense as quick as possible, that's not what Byram does or at least not 'excel at'. I'm also not sure if his skating is good enough to consistently carry the puck up like that. It's not bad but it's not elite, like say Quinn Hughes. Easier for a guy like Hughes to get away with / succeed more often with those types of plays than it is for Byram.


I try and re-assess my stance every single time I watch him, like I do with any prospect but particularly those that I am harsh on, to see if they will change my opinion, but he consistently does the same things every game, which means my opinion is not going to change until I see evidence of him being good at the things I'm criticizing him of.

Emphatically disagree on the first part. You keep talking about “transferring to the NHL”, which is why it’s weird you would take this stance. NHL-level systems are all FAR too tight for stretch passes to be constantly or even substantially relied on for transferring to offence. I’m a Pens fan, so I saw this acutely last season. You can have all the offensive talent in the world, but if you don’t have guys who can get your offensive studs not only the puck, but also room to enter the zone, you’re not going to have a good time.

In each period in the NHL, there will probably be less than a dozen passes made from deep in the defensive zone to the far blue line. The best play driving d-men, from Karlsson to Hedman to Burns to Jodi and on and on, all excel at moving the puck into positions where defenders are forced to move to engage them, and then moving the puck into the newly cleared space.

The continued questioning of Byram’s skating is just ridiculous. His mobility in all directions is probably his greatest strength. We’ve been over this before. If you’re holding everyone to a Hughes-level standard, not many are going to fully measure up. That doesn’t make him a bad, no, doesn’t make him not a very good skater.

 

[Ivan13]

We can attribute it to Byram having been overrated for the longest time. Like I said pre-draft, there's no logical reason to have Byram ranked over Heinola. Well, my sample size's 1-2 games here.

Still though, you have to wonder how long we're going to see CHL Ds rated so highly. If we look at recent disappointments, just about all of them are from there. Not that Byram is one at this point, but yeah. Strange.

Other than him being a far better prospect than Heniola, yes there is no reason to rank him higher.

 

[avsfan9]

Come on, just because he didn’t make the team his first year he’s not as great of a prospect? Many highly touted defensemen do not make their respective teams their draft year. Makar is arguably the best defensive prospect in the world and he was not nearly as good as Byram is now when he was drafted. Byram will be fine and will be a top 4 d man for us next season.

 

[CB Joe]

9 shots on goal for a defenseman is insane.

 

[Goulet17]

Byram had a rough outing last night. He went -3 with one assist as Kamloops really took it to Vancouver 6-2. He is back in action today.

 

[Zaddy]

Emphatically disagree on the first part. You keep talking about “transferring to the NHL”, which is why it’s weird you would take this stance. NHL-level systems are all FAR too tight for stretch passes to be constantly or even substantially relied on for transferring to offence. I’m a Pens fan, so I saw this acutely last season. You can have all the offensive talent in the world, but if you don’t have guys who can get your offensive studs not only the puck, but also room to enter the zone, you’re not going to have a good time.

In each period in the NHL, there will probably be less than a dozen passes made from deep in the defensive zone to the far blue line. The best play driving d-men, from Karlsson to Hedman to Burns to Jodi and on and on, all excel at moving the puck into positions where defenders are forced to move to engage them, and then moving the puck into the newly cleared space.

True, but Byram, to me, doesn't even excel at the medium-range passes or any type of passing to kickstart the offense, which still is what you see far more in the NHL than guys skating the puck up. His outlet passing as a whole is very underwhelming to me for a guy that supposedly is a great all-around D and #1D in the making. He takes too long to make decisions, which both limits his options and makes the likelihood of him hitting that pass far lower than it could've been. Honestly I think that's probably a big reason why he loves rushing the puck because that takes that type of quick thinking out of the equation and he can just rely on his tools. Similar to Nurse who is great at rushing the puck up the ice and entering the zone, but is not a very good passer at all. Difference between those two of course is that Byram actually knows what to do in the offensive zone with the puck on his stick, Nurse does not, although Nurse skating is superior so he can more easily make those types of rushes.

The continued questioning of Byram’s skating is just ridiculous. His mobility in all directions is probably his greatest strength. We’ve been over this before. If you’re holding everyone to a Hughes-level standard, not many are going to fully measure up. That doesn’t make him a bad, no, doesn’t make him not a very good skater.

I feel like you kind of have to be an elite skater like a Hughes or Nurse if you want to consistently be able to transport the puck up the ice. Also I've never been a fan of his backwards skating and feel like it gets him in trouble defensively at times. His mobility in all directions is very good as you say, but there's more aspects to skating than that which can be quite vital.

 

[jj cale]

Come on, just because he didn’t make the team his first year he’s not as great of a prospect? Many highly touted defensemen do not make their respective teams their draft year. Makar is arguably the best defensive prospect in the world and he was not nearly as good as Byram is now when he was drafted. Byram will be fine and will be a top 4 d man for us next season.

It's the most cliche and knee jerk reaction you get on hf aside from blaming losses on the refs, that one will always be number 1 but the "he's not as good as player x" after 2-3 games comes in a close second.

It's amazing how many fans do this.

 

[Dominance]

True, but Byram, to me, doesn't even excel at the medium-range passes or any type of passing to kickstart the offense, which still is what you see far more in the NHL than guys skating the puck up. His outlet passing as a whole is very underwhelming to me for a guy that supposedly is a great all-around D and #1D in the making. He takes too long to make decisions, which both limits his options and makes the likelihood of him hitting that pass far lower than it could've been. Honestly I think that's probably a big reason why he loves rushing the puck because that takes that type of quick thinking out of the equation and he can just rely on his tools. Similar to Nurse who is great at rushing the puck up the ice and entering the zone, but is not a very good passer at all. Difference between those two of course is that Byram actually knows what to do in the offensive zone with the puck on his stick, Nurse does not, although Nurse skating is superior so he can more easily make those types of rushes.



I feel like you kind of have to be an elite skater like a Hughes or Nurse if you want to consistently be able to transport the puck up the ice. Also I've never been a fan of his backwards skating and feel like it gets him in trouble defensively at times. His mobility in all directions is very good as you say, but there's more aspects to skating than that which can be quite vital.

Thanks for the responses. I agree with all of the general premises, just have different views on his particular abilities. If I can ask, what do you see as his ceiling? Even if you think it’s just an average 2-3D, do you think the problems you see in his play would be helped or worsened by potentially playing with Makar down the road?

 

[Zaddy]

Thanks for the responses. I agree with all of the general premises, just have different views on his particular abilities. If I can ask, what do you see as his ceiling? Even if you think it’s just an average 2-3D, do you think the problems you see in his play would be helped or worsened by potentially playing with Makar down the road?

I find it somewhat difficult to project Byram. As I've mentioned before one of my main areas of concern with his game is his sometimes slow decision-making. Now, the question I'm asking myself is whether that stems from a lack of hockey IQ or it's just that he needs to start playing with more urgency in his game. Depending on what the answer to that question is the projection becomes a bit different. But if I had to say something I think a high-end #3D, a guy who can drive a 2nd pairing and put up a lot of points is what I'd see as a realistic ceiling for him.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not an expert on Makar but isn't he quite similar to Byram in that he loves rushing the puck and acting as a 4th forward a lot of the time? If that's the case then I don't think they'd be very good partners for each other. I'd probably look more toward playing Zadorov with Makar and Timmins with Byram. That could be a very nice looking top4 for the Avs. I love Timmins' game, those two could be a pretty dynamic pairing.

 

[wetcoast]

I mean, if we're going off pre-season he's not wrong. Pre-season in general doesn't mean much and doesn't predict future success but I think it was at least a little bit noticeable that guys like Heinola, Björnfot, Harley, Söderström all seem to have outplayed him so far and according to scouts and media guys pre-draft none of those guys were even close to Byram and not in the same tier as prospects. I think those guys are already starting to prove the scouts/talking heads wrong. The gap between those prospects and Byram was mostly imagined. If you only look at offensive upside, sure there's a bit of a gap, but there's more to hockey than putting up points, especially when it comes to defensemen. You have to be able to make quick decisions under pressure, you have to be able to move the puck, you have to be able to defend. Byram is lacking in these areas and it was pretty glaring in the games I watched.

Really no one ever cares about preseason, like ever.

Who was the preseason Hart?
Norris?
Art ross?

exactly it means zip, zilch, nada......

 

[Zaddy]

Really no one ever cares about preseason, like ever.

Who was the preseason Hart?
Norris?
Art ross?

exactly it means zip, zilch, nada......

I said about as much in my post didn't I? Still noticeable that guys like Söderström, Heinola and Björnfot looks to be starting in the NHL. That's impressive for 18 year old defensemen and pretty rare for guys drafted where they were, indicating that maybe these guys weren't so far off from Byram after all.

 

[wetcoast]

I said about as much in my post didn't I? Still noticeable that guys like Söderström, Heinola and Björnfot looks to be starting in the NHL. That's impressive for 18 year old defensemen and pretty rare for guys drafted where they were, indicating that maybe these guys weren't so far off from Byram after all.

I really doubt that Söderström plays more than 9 games he just can't get icetime in Arizona with their depth of Dmen.

Heinola is really only going to play because the Jets, for 3 different reasons lost 3 of their top 4 Dmen from last year.

Björnfot is a great story and I liked him at #10 for the Canucks but he also might have the highest floor and lowest ceiling of all 4 guys mentioned.

Also LA is really desperate for Dmen, after doughty there is a huge drop off to Martinez then....

The Avs have more Dmen blocking Bryam than anything else plus they are already going to integrate Makar with top 4 MPG.

It's more situational than any long term assessment, Byram still remains the best prospect among the 4 and easily.

 

[yeaher]

I said about as much in my post didn't I? Still noticeable that guys like Söderström, Heinola and Björnfot looks to be starting in the NHL. That's impressive for 18 year old defensemen and pretty rare for guys drafted where they were, indicating that maybe these guys weren't so far off from Byram after all.

I really liked Soderstrom's game, but he wasn't worth the 4th pick; honestly preferred Dach or Turcotte at 4, alas Dach wasn't available. I think Byram will come good, but no sense in him struggling this year for 9 games. I think Heinola and Bjornfot will be good especially the former, but have very difficult times this season.

 

[wetcoast]

I find it somewhat difficult to project Byram. As I've mentioned before one of my main areas of concern with his game is his sometimes slow decision-making. Now, the question I'm asking myself is whether that stems from a lack of hockey IQ or it's just that he needs to start playing with more urgency in his game. Depending on what the answer to that question is the projection becomes a bit different. But if I had to say something I think a high-end #3D, a guy who can drive a 2nd pairing and put up a lot of points is what I'd see as a realistic ceiling for him.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not an expert on Makar but isn't he quite similar to Byram in that he loves rushing the puck and acting as a 4th forward a lot of the time? If that's the case then I don't think they'd be very good partners for each other. I'd probably look more toward playing Zadorov with Makar and Timmins with Byram. That could be a very nice looking top4 for the Avs. I love Timmins' game, those two could be a pretty dynamic pairing.

Bryam also brings an edge to his game, maybe it's not as important as it used to be but in the playoffs it's still extremely use full.

His ceiling really is higher than just a #3 or second paring guy, you are out to lunch on that (which is really wierd because you post looks like it has some thought behind it).

The reason he was the highest rated Dman in the draft is because he screams all around #1 Dman in the NHL, has offensive, defensive, an edge ect, just ticks all of the boxes for what NHL teams want in a Dman.

girard is also a top 4 dman for the Avs so they could be really deep in as soon as 2 years on the back end, although EJ is getting older and has injury concerns.