"Last Night's Attendance" Thread II

[Ted Hoffman]

A continuation of the ever-ongoing debate about who really is (and isn't) supporting their hockey teams, and why.

Ground rules
1. Make sure you've read the original thead first; we've covered quite a few things there, and it might answer some questions.
2. Keep the discussions civil. Disagree all you want, but leave the name calling back in 6th grade with the other 6th graders (unless you're a 6th grader yourself, in which case ... you've got homework - quit wasting time here!).
3. If you're going to post attendance figures for "last night", you must post ALL of the attendance figures. Being selective about which numbers to post will not be allowed. (How you want to interpret them is up to you - see point #5.)
4. Discussions about TV ratings should go in a separate (and I'm sure equally entertaining) thread.
5. If you're going to make a point, be prepared to back it up. You'll probably get called out on it.

Failure to abide by these rules may result in you being banned from the thread. This is the only warning that everyone will get about this. (And no, if you get tossed you will not be let back in.)

We now fade into the still-raging discussion, already in progress ...

Click to read more...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I just wanted to say, right off the bat, that I love all of you very much.

 

[Fugu]

And since IB locked the other thread, what better way to start with than to clarify the way a company sets a price. Usually they have an objective. It can be several things, including profit maximization (focus on the current vs. longterm), quantity maximization (see longterm costs and experience curves) or revenue maximization (something about market share). There are more! Onwards.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

And that's what I was agreeing with when I said that I agreed with the bolded part. You can maximize profits without necessarily maximizing paid attendance. I apologize for not making that more clear.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

And before we go any further, let's please remember that when introducing average ticket price figures for various teams, it is utterly useless to introduce anything having to do with Team Marketing Report's Fan Cost Index "data" as evidence. It has been covered well on this board. TMR's "data" on average ticket prices is nothing more than marketing material provided by the respective team PR reps... it is NOT an accurate reflection of actual ticket price averages in the buildings. And in some cases, it is way, WAY off. When comparing teams' ticket prices, you are FAR better off examining the different price levels within the buildings and comparing apples to apples. Yes, you actually have to do a little work.

So please, no quoting TMR (or any site using TMR as their source) for ticket price data. (Heck, this could probably be a ground rule too.)

 

[Ted Hoffman]

And since IB locked the other thread, what better way to start with than to clarify the way a company sets a price. Usually they have an objective. It can be several things, including profit maximization (focus on the current vs. longterm), quantity maximization (see longterm costs and experience curves) or revenue maximization (something about market share). There are more! Onwards.

Sorry ... you know, being a global mod, I had to uphold the long-held belief that we always get the last word in without ever giving anyone else a chance to respond. I really didn't want to - but it's there in black and white on the card that spells out the list of duties we must uphold, else face permanent banishment to Eklund's site. Persecute the innocent, show favoritism at every chance, get the last word in before locking a thread, ... well, you all understand - right?

 

[Fugu]

And that's what I was agreeing with when I said that I agreed with the bolded part. You can maximize profits without necessarily maximizing paid attendance. I apologize for not making that more clear.

You can maximize anything you want, provided you're maximizing the item that leads you to the objective. For some it's profit maximization, for others it can be revenue maximization. Would you like to clarify why you are favoring profit maximization? Perhaps some examples of which teams would do better with this goal in mind over another pricing objective?

 

[Fugu]

Sorry ... you know, being a global mod, I had to uphold the long-held belief that we always get the last word in without ever giving anyone else a chance to respond. I really didn't want to - but it's there in black and white on the card that spells out the list of duties we must uphold, else face permanent banishment to Eklund's site. Persecute the innocent, show favoritism at every chance, get the last word in before locking a thread, ... well, you all understand - right?

However it was very kind of you to start another thread where the discussion about attendance and the pricing strategies used to attain business objectives could be discussed.

 

[DevFan-RU-]

This would be a good week to watch Devils attendance. Its post-football season, and a 6 game homestand for this week.

Sabres @ Devils (2/3) : 18,589 out of 19,050.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You can maximize anything you, provided you're maximizing the item that leads you to the objective. For some it's profit maximization, for others it can be revenue maximization. Would you like to clarify why you are favoring profit maximization? Perhaps some examples of which teams would do better with this goal in mind over another pricing objective?

I don't recall a single statement I've made, in this thread or any other, where I've suggested that I favour profit maximization. Would you care to show otherwise?

 

[NJD Jester]

5. If you're going to make a point, be prepared to back it up. You'll probably get called out on it.

Now, do the old rules apply where you can simply say "it's a fact, you know it's true, too" and that will satisfy the "back it up" requirement?

 

[crashlanding]

This would be a good week to watch Devils attendance. Its post-football season, and a 6 game homestand for this week.

Sabres @ Devils (2/3) : 18,589 out of 19,050.

I'm not hopeful for repeat near sellouts. They were playing the #1 team in the East, there are lots of transplanted Buffalonians in NYC, there were ridiculous ticket discounts, AND they were honoring the '95 cup team.

That's a lot of bells and whistles to get probably 3500 more people in the seats. Attendance does get better in the second half of the season, but it won't be that good. Newark should be a lot better for the simple fact that it's a smaller arena (with a much smaller lower bowl) and plenty of good cheap seats.

I wish I was still living there so I could get season tix.

 

[crashlanding]

In the previous thread has anyone posted what "their team's" business plan appears to be? I'm sorry I'm relatively new to this thread since I thought the original was just *****ing before and that's a lot of posts to read! (If so feel free to let me know and I'll delete my post, don't want to be a nuisance)

I'll submit NJ's if nobody else has. They are obviously trying to maximize ticket revenue. From their lease with the NJSEA they get very little (perhaps none) of the parking revenue, none of the concessions, and very little added benefit from packing more people into the arena. Essentially they walk away with most of the ticket sales and use that to feed the business. That's one of the reasons that NJ has terrible looking attendance during broadcasts (and in box scores) because it has a very large lower bowl that is hardly ever 2/3s full. All seats in the lower bowl cost $90 and with such great sightlines from the $35 seats I don't know anyone that can justify spending that much. They also don't qualify for revenue sharing due to their proximity to NYC so this is the only real business model they can attempt.

I think it might be interesting to see what teams look like they're focusing on and how those different models may affect attendance.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Essentially they walk away with most of the ticket sales and use that to feed the business. That's one of the reasons that NJ has terrible looking attendance during broadcasts (and in box scores) because it has a very large lower bowl that is hardly ever 2/3s full. All seats in the lower bowl cost $90 and with such great sightlines from the $35 seats I don't know anyone that can justify spending that much.

This specific part of your post relates to something that has come up in the past and continues to puzzle me--that is, the notion that there is something noteworthy about the prices in New Jersey that makes attending a game prohibitive (even in certain parts of the building). I still fail to see how the pricing situation there is any different (if not better) than many other teams around the league--especially when considering New Jersey's remarkable track record as a successful organization (e.g., winning, drafting, etc.).

 

[Timmy]

In the previous thread has anyone posted what "their team's" business plan appears to be? .

In Vancouver, "We Are All Canucks," so we all have to go to the games, apparently.



It gets a little squishy, but once we got rid of the wheelchair areas and emergency refuge areas, and took out a couple of support pillars, it's all been good.

 

[kdb209]

A continuation of the ever-ongoing debate about who really is (and isn't) supporting their hockey teams, and why.

Ground rules
1. Make sure you've read the original thead first; we've covered quite a few things there, and it might answer some questions.

I'm sure many people will blissfully ignore rule #1 anyway, but it might be a good idea to include a link to the previous thread (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=302896) in the initial post of this thread - just to make their (and our) lives easier. Soon it will drop off of the first page of the BoH board and people will be too lazy to look for it.

 

[HBK27]

This specific part of your post relates to something that has come up in the past and continues to puzzle me--that is, the notion that there is something noteworthy about the prices in New Jersey that makes attending a game prohibitive (even in certain parts of the building). I still fail to see how the pricing situation there is any different (if not better) than many other teams around the league--especially when considering New Jersey's remarkable track record as a successful organization (e.g., winning, drafting, etc.).

It's just a very odd pricing structure, to say the least, in that every single seat in the lower bowl (which probably accounts for close to 50% of the seats) is priced the same. I've sat down there a few times (usually behind the goal or in the upper corner) and I'd much rather have been sitting upstairs in seats that cost half the price. Some of the better seats downstairs (especially near the glass or center ice) are certainly a value at $90, but a good amount of them are not...especially considering what you could have had for the same price. It just seems like a rather large amount of seats to be priced that high.

You have to remember that lower bowl seats are generally bought up by corporations, which the Devils have struggled with. Part of the reason they are moving to Newark (in addition to the amount of public transportation available) is that they are looking to gain more corporate ticket sales by being associated with the city.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

It's just a very odd pricing structure, to say the least, in that every single seat in the lower bowl (which probably accounts for close to 50% of the seats) is priced the same. I've sat down there a few times (usually behind the goal or in the upper corner) and I'd much rather have been sitting upstairs in seats that cost half the price. Some of the better seats downstairs (especially near the glass or center ice) are certainly a value at $90, but a good amount of them are not...especially considering what you could have had for the same price. It just seems like a rather large amount of seats to be priced that high.

Or that low. Have you seen prices elsewhere?

I understand that it might be odd, but it certainly can't be considered more (or even as) prohibitive when that $90 that covers the entire lower bowl is basically the equivalent of only the very lowest price (of several) found in the lower bowl elsewhere.

For example, comparing single-game prices for the lower bowl, so that we're comparing apples to apples:

New Jersey: $90 for every seat

Colorado: $89 for one large subset of seats, $97 for another large subset, $116 for another large subset, $139 for a smaller subset, $202 for rinkside.

 

[AdmiralPred]

This thread just doesn't have the 'kavorka' w/out the ranting Bettman bashers and repeated lists of Atlanta Flames' and Winnipeg Jets' attendance figures.

 

[Raptor]

One game on the NHL's schedule tonight: Detroit @ New York Rangers.
I'm expecting a sellout, it's an Original Six matchup, the only time the Red Wings will be in NY in at least 2 years, it's nationally televised, Sean Avery got traded to the Rangers, and just a tough opponent.
For once, the NHL will get a 100% attendance in one day.

 

[crashlanding]

Or that low. Have you seen prices elsewhere?

I understand that it might be odd, but it certainly can't be considered more (or even as) prohibitive when that $90 that covers the entire lower bowl is basically the equivalent of only the very lowest price (of several) found in the lower bowl elsewhere.

For example, comparing single-game prices for the lower bowl, so that we're comparing apples to apples:

New Jersey: $90 for every seat

Colorado: $89 for one large subset of seats, $97 for another large subset, $116 for another large subset, $139 for a smaller subset, $202 for rinkside.

You fail to recognize that Colorado sells those tickets to every game. If people are willing to pay those prices you better believe they're going to charge that much. However, as I've seen in practically every NJ game I've gone too, NJ fans sell out most of the upper bowl while the lower bowl is a ghost town.

You also fail to mention that lots of arenas provide advantages to sitting closer to the ice. Dedicated concourses, people coming to take your food order, etc. Also when I say the whole lower bowl I mean 9,000 out of the 19,000 seats. For comparison the new arena in Newark will have 6,500 seats in the lower bowl.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

You fail to recognize that Colorado sells those tickets to every game.

I fail to recognize my own point?

If people are willing to pay those prices you better believe they're going to charge that much.

Exactly.

However, as I've seen in practically every NJ game I've gone too, NJ fans sell out most of the upper bowl while the lower bowl is a ghost town.

You also fail to mention that lots of arenas provide advantages to sitting closer to the ice. Dedicated concourses, people coming to take your food order, etc. Also when I say the whole lower bowl I mean 9,000 out of the 19,000 seats. For comparison the new arena in Newark will have 6,500 seats in the lower bowl.

Well, just as an FYI, no one's taking any food orders or serving anyone in the lower bowl here either. And the percentage of seats that are in the lower bowl seems comparable as well.

 

[DevFan-RU-]

Its supply and demand...

For me: Why pay $90 when $20 is cheaper?

Best seats in the Devils' house has got to be center-ice, section 200s, rows 1~15.

These seats costs $70, but with promotional deals, I usually get them for $54... or a bit cheaper.

ColoradoHockeyFan, NJ does not struggle with corporations. In fact. The vast majority of those $90 seats are owned by season ticket holders and corporations. I have only bought $90 seats once, and have realized that no matter how early I buy them, you get shoveled to the top row of the lower bowl.

Everything from the glass up 20 rows is taken and cannot be bought. I have tried.

The pricing plans in the CAA are crap.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

ColoradoHockeyFan, NJ does not struggle with corporations. In fact. The vast majority of those $90 seats are owned by season ticket holders and corporations. I have only bought $90 seats once, and have realized that no matter how early I buy them, you get shoveled to the top row of the lower bowl.

Everything from the glass up 20 rows is taken and cannot be bought. I have tried.

The pricing plans in the CAA are crap.

I'm not sure if you were implying here that I had said that they struggle with corporations, or if you were just responding to what another poster stated. Hopefully, it was the latter, as I never said that (I wouldn't even know).

So based on what you're saying, the lower bowl is pretty much all sold? Combining that with the other Devils fan's claim that the upper bowl is nearly always full, shouldn't we expect reported attendance to be reasonably close to capacity on most nights? How do we reconcile these claims with the frequent low reported attendance there?

 

[DevFan-RU-]

I was replying to crash about corporate support.

As for all the seats being sold, is also an understatement. Just all the good seats are sold.

I would gladly pay $90 for a seat up against the glass. But I can never buy these tickets... EVER. Unless I get season tickets (too expensive) or work for a company/know someone who has these tickets.

The issue here is that most casual fans dont want to pay $90 for seats behind the nets, or at the top of the lower bowl. I don't.

And those are alot of empty seats that just dont get filled. And its quite a large ammount. Lower bowl seats approximately 9,000... and is usually half-filled.

As I said, the best seats for the money are in the upper level, center ice, low rows. Hence why they are always full, and the lowers always empty.

Add to that issues with the Arena itself and its location, competition with other sports, and you have our current situation.