Last in the League

izlez

We need more toe-drags/60
Feb 28, 2012
4,576
3,462
Pittsburgh Penguins
2003- Fleury- 1st overall
2004-Malkin- 2nd overall
2005-Crosby- 1st overall
2006-Staal- 2nd overall

Chicago Blackhawks
2006- Jonathan Toews- 3rd overall
2007- Patrick Kane- 1st overall

Washington Capitals
2004- Alex Ovechkin- 1st overall
2006- Nicklas Backstrom- 4th overall

What do these teams have in common? They all got better by being really bad.

Also, whether we have Nyquist on the team or not for the next 3 years makes absolutely no difference. We are not a substantially better team with Gustav Nyquist, an inconsistent 2nd liner, who disappears for long stretches (but to his credit can also get hot for good stretches too). Resigning Nyquist does nothing at all, except takes minutes away from a younger player. We have some good prospects up front. Give Nyquist's spot next year to someone like Svech, or Zadina, it makes no difference.
Ugh. Sweet argument

What about teams like Edmonton?

They don't have enough supporting players? Because they don't keep guys like Nyquist? Because their easy to replace?

I'm not going into further argument because it's been done a million times. WE are loaded with kids right now. One of them is better that Nyquist. Players better than Nyquist are hard to find. And we shouldn't get rid of him because you like watching "kids" (that you'll get bored of within a year)
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
I for one would rather spend that money on trying to sign a legit 1st liner or #1 D.

Ok, that's exactly what I said. I'm not lining up to give Nyquist money, but I'm not kicking him out the door by the ass. You have the money available to get a #1D or #1C (see the Red Wings in 2014, 2015, 2016) and then you sign players that you think will improve your team if you miss out on the big fish.
 

Hammettf2b

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Jul 9, 2012
22,489
4,610
So California
Ok, that's exactly what I said. I'm not lining up to give Nyquist money, but I'm not kicking him out the door by the ass. You have the money available to get a #1D or #1C (see the Red Wings in 2014, 2015, 2016) and then you sign players that you think will improve your team if you miss out on the big fish.
I just wouldn't feel comfortable signing Nyquist on a long term deal is all. He's only hit 50 points once and he's at the tail end of his prime.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
I just wouldn't feel comfortable signing Nyquist on a long term deal is all. He's only hit 50 points once and he's at the tail end of his prime.

Right. Me neither. We are closer to agreeing than you think. But if he wants to stay for a couple more years, I have no issue with it. I don't want to sign him for the contract he is likely to command.
 

Hammettf2b

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Jul 9, 2012
22,489
4,610
So California
Right. Me neither. We are closer to agreeing than you think. But if he wants to stay for a couple more years, I have no issue with it. I don't want to sign him for the contract he is likely to command.
And this is why I think he should be traded regardless. Doubt he signs a short term deal
 

RedWingzz

Everybody loves Raymond
Apr 14, 2009
9,095
4,685
Canada
WHAT YOUNGER ASSETS?

We already have plenty of ice time to go around for young players as it is. We are losing Vanek next year. That's another spot opening up. Witkowski will eventually be let go. I mean, we had Wade ****ing Megan up here. Christoffer Ehn was getting a decent amount of time.

Zadina will be up next year. Probably in Vanek's role.
Svech can't keep himself heathly (which sucks, I think he'll be good)
Dominic Turgeon is a dime-a-dozen guy like Glendening.
Givani Smith still needs time and he's gonna slot in for the Witkowski role anyway.
Berggren won't be ready for another couple years.
Veleno probably needs another year or two himself.

On D, Daley is gone in the next two years, Ericsson, Kronwall, Jensen, etc.

And if they struck the jackpot and got Hughes and some other top pairing D or whatever, they move out one of the old guys at the draft.

Again, what younger assets are not getting NHL playing time that deserve it? Because a way that you make sure that you keep yourself on the treadmill to nowhere is to put players who have no business being in the NHL in the NHL because "Oh, all young players are fine and should learn on the brightest stage"

I missed your point because it is an inane one that shouldn't be made. Younger does not equal better. You aren't doing a better rebuild because your average age is 23.5 instead of 23.9 or 24.1

Also, I'm not saying that they should roll out the red carpet for Nyquist and give him 6M+ to keep him around. Just that it is lunacy to want to chuck him out to just get a roster spot and get something inconsequential as a 6th rounder for him.

I am saying that I don't want them to give Nyquist 6+ mil, because that is what he will get on the open market. I honestly don't understand why me not wanting our GM, who has been famous for dishing out loyalty contracts, (cough Danny Cleary), to sign Nyquist to a 4 year deal worth 24 million dollars is such an issue. If we have all of the younger assets already playing in the lineup, play Matt Puempel for all I care. Play some AHL journeyman. Signing Nyquist to a longterm contract for 6 million per year is not what we need right now. These longterm loyalty contracts that Holland dishes out are hurting the team more than helping it.

If you can't comprehend that I don't want Nyquist on the team anymore because it doesn't make sense, well this discussion is going to keep going in circles. I would rather give young players bigger roles, and I would also rather have Puempel or Chris Terry or "insert journeyman AHL player here" on the team making 600,000 than Nyquist on the team making 6.5 million. Spend the 6.5 elsewhere, or don't spend it at all.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
1,402
1,877
I can't get behind cheering for this. Last in the league is heartbreaking. For me, a high pick is the silver lining NOT the goal. We're not as bad as our record indicates. Get a few real D on this team and we make a push for the playoffs soon. Add another top notch C onto that and we could make some noise.

This coming draft will be huge, one way or the other. If we do pick TOP 5 we CAN NOT miss. Draft a bust this year and it's a major set back.
 
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SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
1,607
1,037
I can't get behind cheering for this. Last in the league is heartbreaking. For me, a high pick is the silver lining NOT the goal. We're not as bad as our record indicates. Get a few real D on this team and we make a push for the playoffs soon. Add another top notch C onto that and we could make some noise.

This coming draft will be huge, one way or the other. If we do pick TOP 5 we CAN NOT miss. Draft a bust this year and it's a major set back.
We need a whole lot more than a few good D. Look at how stocked we are at all positions in GR.
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,390
1,556
This is the dream. We were always going to be a non-contending team. I don't care if we were 17th and just missed the playoffs. There is no victory or honor in being so close with no realistic chance at competing for a Cup. The single greatest boon we could hope for is the best possible pick we can (#1 OA), a shot at a potential generational talent at C or D (Hughes), and a long and very instructional season of playing time for our young nucleus of players with little to no pressure or consequence for them to learn how to play and operate in the NHL.

If we were skirting a potential playoff spot, we would have way more time cycling vets with no long term future with the team into the lineup and on key shifts, we would be buyers at the deadline instead of sellers costing us picks and prospects, all to accumulate juuuuust enough talent to see the Lightning in the First Round and be swept. No, Thank You. Time to hope for the worst and pray for the best pick and look forward to a potential core of:

Hughes, Larkin, Rasmussen, Zadina, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Veleno, Berggren, Smith, Cholo, Hronek, McIssac, etc. plus whatever ever else we draft in 2019 with the 33rd pick and the additional 1sts and 2nds we grab from trading away our vets.

That's a core that can win in 3 years and the one we should be hoping for.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
This is the dream. We were always going to be a non-contending team. I don't care if we were 17th and just missed the playoffs. There is no victory or honor in being so close with no realistic chance at competing for a Cup. The single greatest boon we could hope for is the best possible pick we can (#1 OA), a shot at a potential generational talent at C or D (Hughes), and a long and very instructional season of playing time for our young nucleus of players with little to no pressure or consequence for them to learn how to play and operate in the NHL.

If we were skirting a potential playoff spot, we would have way more time cycling vets with no long term future with the team into the lineup and on key shifts, we would be buyers at the deadline instead of sellers costing us picks and prospects, all to accumulate juuuuust enough talent to see the Lightning in the First Round and be swept. No, Thank You. Time to hope for the worst and pray for the best pick and look forward to a potential core of:

Hughes, Larkin, Rasmussen, Zadina, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Veleno, Berggren, Smith, Cholo, Hronek, McIssac, etc. plus whatever ever else we draft in 2019 with the 33rd pick and the additional 1sts and 2nds we grab from trading away our vets.

That's a core that can win in 3 years and the one we should be hoping for.

Agree with everything but the last bit. The team still needs a goalie and to rebuild the defense before there is a core that can win. But the forward core featuring Hughes/Larkin would be a great first step towards a real rebuild.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
1,402
1,877
We need a whole lot more than a few good D. Look at how stocked we are at all positions in GR.

I disagree. Look at the impact Mike Green alone has on our record when he's in/out of the line up.
Now replace Big E and Daley with upgrades and see what this team does. Our forward core is young, puck hungry and gritty but the problem is we cant get them the puck from out of our zone. This team with a true #1 Dman and another TOP 4 D would be dramatically different. Add a #2 C into that mix and we're making noise.
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,390
1,556
Agree with everything but the last bit. The team still needs a goalie and to rebuild the defense before there is a core that can win. But the forward core featuring Hughes/Larkin would be a great first step towards a real rebuild.

Oh, I very much expect more pieces than that to round out the group but that listing right there is essentially just our current crop plus Hughes. I'm confident that the Wings would have added another 1st pair D or more depth to the D Core through FA or Trade and find a serviceable G at that point.
 

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
1,607
1,037
I disagree. Look at the impact Mike Green alone has on our record when he's in/out of the line up.
Now replace Big E and Daley with upgrades and see what this team does. Our forward core is young, puck hungry and gritty but the problem is we cant get them the puck from out of our zone. This team with a true #1 Dman and another TOP 4 D would be dramatically different. Add a #2 C into that mix and we're making noise.
To make a run in the playoffs, it is all about depth at each position. Look what happened when Green was out this year.

Agreed, we would be better. But, this team will not make a serious playoff run without significant depth.
 

Go Wings

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
6,161
4,125
Chatham, ON
We need and should take a center.

Whatever center we draft this year plus Larkin will be a great 1-2 punch. Two potential PPG centers?

Yes please.

I fully recognize that but with the way Byrum is playing and Veleno, Detroit will consider the dman as well.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
1,402
1,877
To make a run in the playoffs, it is all about depth at each position. Look what happened when Green was out this year.

Agreed, we would be better. But, this team will not make a serious playoff run without significant depth.

I mean, I'm saying the exact same thing except I feel the depth is there and we need the top end to complete the team.
#1 D + TOP 4 D + #2 C. To go along with Cholo, Hronek, Green, DDK, Larkin, Bert, Mantha, AA, Ras, Zadina, Veleno.
 

obey86

Registered User
Jun 9, 2009
8,013
1,274
Pittsburgh Penguins
2003- Fleury- 1st overall
2004-Malkin- 2nd overall
2005-Crosby- 1st overall
2006-Staal- 2nd overall

Chicago Blackhawks
2006- Jonathan Toews- 3rd overall
2007- Patrick Kane- 1st overall

Washington Capitals
2004- Alex Ovechkin- 1st overall
2006- Nicklas Backstrom- 4th overall

What do these teams have in common? They all got better by being really bad.

Also, whether we have Nyquist on the team or not for the next 3 years makes absolutely no difference. We are not a substantially better team with Gustav Nyquist, an inconsistent 2nd liner, who disappears for long stretches (but to his credit can also get hot for good stretches too). Resigning Nyquist does nothing at all, except takes minutes away from a younger player. We have some good prospects up front. Give Nyquist's spot next year to someone like Svech, or Zadina, it makes no difference.

Yeah, but basically every team in the NHL has been really really bad at some point over the last 25 years outside of Detroit (until the last few seasons). So if every team in the league has been really bad at some point (and therefore had the high picks you mentioned), of course the Cup winners are going to have high picks on their rosters, unless the Red Wings won the cup every single season.
 
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Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Oh, I very much expect more pieces than that to round out the group but that listing right there is essentially just our current crop plus Hughes. I'm confident that the Wings would have added another 1st pair D or more depth to the D Core through FA or Trade and find a serviceable G at that point.

So far Detroit hasn't developed a true top pairing D-man since Kronwall nearly 2 decades ago. Cholo/Hronek may plateau as #2/3 guys, but, that still shouldn't inspire confidence in the process. And that's to say nothing about making actual trades to add high impact roster players.
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,390
1,556
So far Detroit hasn't developed a true top pairing D-man since Kronwall nearly 2 decades ago. Cholo/Hronek may plateau as #2/3 guys, but, that still shouldn't inspire confidence in the process. And that's to say nothing about making actual trades to add high impact roster players.

I mean, we can take it further than that - outside of Kronwall and Lidstrom, homegrown defensive talent has been suspect at best (notwithstanding freak accidents with Fischer and Vlad - who were very much on their way to being top flight defensemen). The laundry list of mediocre players is long back into the 90s (Quincy, Meech, Wallin, Bykov, Kindl, Smith, Oulett, Sproul, Pushor, etc.)

Our top pair has always had some kind of free agent or trade we grabbed to fill the spot - Murphy, Coffey, Schneider, Chelios, Hatcher (ha), Rafalski, and now Green.

So I guess to further your point, I'm not really counting on the Wings developing a stud and hoping we'll grab one with a trade or in Free Agency. Hah
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
I mean, we can take it further than that - outside of Kronwall and Lidstrom, homegrown defensive talent has been suspect at best (notwithstanding freak accidents with Fischer and Vlad - who were very much on their way to being top flight defensemen). The laundry list of mediocre players is long back into the 90s (Quincy, Meech, Wallin, Bykov, Kindl, Smith, Oulett, Sproul, Pushor, etc.)

Our top pair has always had some kind of free agent or trade we grabbed to fill the spot - Murphy, Coffey, Schneider, Chelios, Hatcher (ha), Rafalski, and now Green.

So I guess to further your point, I'm not really counting on the Wings developing a stud and hoping we'll grab one with a trade or in Free Agency. Hah

I hope they do, but I don't see, unless there's a truck of money involved or mitigating factors (like Trouba wanting to play in Detroit over all other places), that Detroit is likely to snag a #1 d-man from free agency. First, because they only reach free agency once in a blue moon, and second, because when they do they will get overpaid. So, that leaves making a trade, which the only way I see that happening is Yzerman takes the helm. Failing that, Holland hasn't done a roster player for roster player involving major players since Hasek.
 

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