Las Vegas Interested in MLB

[atticus]

The thing with baseball, is that part of the allure is the game, and part of the allure is just sitting outside and enjoying the weather on a summer day. This resonates well in Northern Climates, where warm weather is limited to a few months a year, and is why mid-size markets can work in the North, but not in the Sunbelt. And then there are places like California, that have large market cities where it is nice to sit outside year round, and those cities tend to generally draw well too.

But there are also a lot of places, that to be frank, are miserable to spend hours sitting outside in the sun during the summer. These are places like Miami, Phoenix, Tampa, and ..... Las Vegas. The first three all have MLB teams and can't draw fans when their teams are good. Las Vegas would be more of the same. Yes you can build a dome, but a dome kills the atmosphere of baseball, and again does not provide the fun of sitting outside in the summer. Point being, baseball doesn't work in Vegas.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

The thing with baseball, is that part of the allure is the game, and part of the allure is just sitting outside and enjoying the weather on a summer day. This resonates well in Northern Climates, where warm weather is limited to a few months a year, and is why mid-size markets can work in the North, but not in the Sunbelt. And then there are places like California, that have large market cities where it is nice to sit outside year round, and those cities tend to generally draw well too.

But there are also a lot of places, that to be frank, are miserable to spend hours sitting outside in the sun during the summer. These are places like Miami, Phoenix, Tampa, and ..... Las Vegas. The first three all have MLB teams and can't draw fans when their teams are good. Las Vegas would be more of the same. Yes you can build a dome, but a dome kills the atmosphere of baseball, and again does not provide the fun of sitting outside in the summer. Point being, baseball doesn't work in Vegas.

Tampa can't draw, but it has nothing to do with the heat, as their stadium is roofed.

It has to do with location. They're in St Petersburg, which is an hour's drive (including a portion over a bridge) away from the city of Tampa. And that's on a day with petty light traffic.

Which is why they have a tough time drawing. Who is rushing from Tampa to St Pete after a hard day of work to sit rush hour traffic to see the Os play the Rays?

 

[KevFu]

There's so much energy in Portland and nationally into this topic about the perception of something happening sooner (rather specifically the end of the lease in St. Petersburg) that I kind of knowingly chuckled to that. That "energy" is misbegotten. And you might be an optimist, Kev.

If it happens then, or prior, it's because (1) both Oakland and Tampa got stadiums lined up locally, (2) Montreal made more progress, and (3) gosh darn it, they want another international market to accompany Montreal.

I know, not as much interest in public funding for a ballpark or even stable currency in the places MLB could likely go. Plus we don't know where television is headed. But it's probably headed to the kind of setup that could advantage a Ciudad de Mexico.

Or MLB doesn't have to expand. The problem with expansion within USA is that franchises still want serious compensation for the loss of TV markets, never mind the fate of TV.

I think the "fate of TV" part is another reason why MLB wants to expand. Basically the TV territory thing isn't a big deal, because it would be only 2 or 3 teams with their territory effected. I mean, Montreal is for sure one of the two next MLB teams, and making all of Canada joint Toronto/Montreal territory would be the path of least resistance. And CANADA is the largest independent TV territory in baseball. Not to mention that it's entirely possible that the "new territory" agreement after the Expos moved to DC could have included language for Toronto -- i.e., "Toronto gets all of Canada until a team in Montreal comes back, then it reverts to the old territory from when the Jays and Expos coexisted from 1977-2004").

They put a team in Portland and Montreal and only Toronto (biggest territory), Seattle, and MAYBE San Francisco/Oakland (third biggest) or Colorado are affected TV territory wise.


BUT the big thing 32 teams does is allow a maximum schedule configuration for local TV start times. Adding Portland would be fewer games Seattle plays outside of the PTZ and more games they play in it, so while their cable TV commercials reach fewer potential viewers per game, they reach more actual viewers in primetime, so no revenue lost.


Plus, you know, MLBAM is making money hand over fist. The bigger concern than any other sports league revenue is "we don't want to share our MLBAM revenues 32 ways instead of 30" because MLBAM isn't just making money from MLBTV subscriptions, they're the underlying architecture for ESPN, Disney, NHLTV, HBO and others' streaming technology.

 

[KevFu]

My fear is that with 32 teams, MLB would push a radical realignment agenda, which I think would be bad.

I’d advocate for either two divisions of 8 per league, remaining NL and AL with West to East in each league (as in Montreal joins the NL and either the other expansion teams joins the AL or someone like Colorado switches to the AL).

Or if craziness ensures, go to FOUR LEAGUES. AL, NL, PCL, and CBL using revisionist history:

AL: Boston, Baltimore, NY Yankees, Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Chicago White Sox.
NL: Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Atlanta, Chicago Cubs, St. Louis, Milwaukee (Southeastern expansion team like Nashville/Charlotte; or Colorado)
PCL: Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland, LA Dodgers, LA Angels, San Diego, Arizona, Colorado (or Portland)
CBL: Montreal, Toronto, Tampa Bay, Miami, Houston, Texas, NY Mets, Washington.

Four league winners make the playoffs and get home field vs the winner of a wild card game between 2nd and 3rd place.
Four league champs go to the semis, with AL and NL always being on opposite sides of the bracket.


You preserve the AL/NL integrity that’s existed since the 1800s. All those cities had franchises in those leagues prior to 1956 (except one expansion team).

You give the PCL teams almost all games in their time zones.

You have one oddball league (CBL) that’s all pairs of rivals that all have similar history MLB’s first expansion eras.


It’s bizarrely great.

 

[LadyStanley]

I had some clients of mine, who are pretty large gamblers, tell me that Caesars has had an agreement to sell the Rio to a group that plans to build a MLB stadium on that site. I suppose that could be plausible, but also something to digest with a grain of salt.

Caesars itself is apparently on the market. So selling off the Rio property isn't that far fetched.

Rio is on the west side of I-15, away from the Strip, by just under a mile. So close enough to tap into that area.


Las Vegas is THE fastest growing city in the country (as of 2018). So, it might not be that far fetched to reach 3million in less than a decade.

As seen by VGK visiting fans, as least to begin with, fans will flock to visit Las Vegas while their team is playing; novelty travel. With "day" games, that leaves evenings free to enjoy shows, gamble, etc.

 

[gstommylee]

My fear is that with 32 teams, MLB would push a radical realignment agenda, which I think would be bad.

I’d advocate for either two divisions of 8 per league, remaining NL and AL with West to East in each league (as in Montreal joins the NL and either the other expansion teams joins the AL or someone like Colorado switches to the AL).

Or if craziness ensures, go to FOUR LEAGUES. AL, NL, PCL, and CBL using revisionist history:

AL: Boston, Baltimore, NY Yankees, Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Chicago White Sox.
NL: Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Atlanta, Chicago Cubs, St. Louis, Milwaukee (Southeastern expansion team like Nashville/Charlotte; or Colorado)
PCL: Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland, LA Dodgers, LA Angels, San Diego, Arizona, Colorado (or Portland)
CBL: Montreal, Toronto, Tampa Bay, Miami, Houston, Texas, NY Mets, Washington.

Four league winners make the playoffs and get home field vs the winner of a wild card game between 2nd and 3rd place.
Four league champs go to the semis, with AL and NL always being on opposite sides of the bracket.


You preserve the AL/NL integrity that’s existed since the 1800s. All those cities had franchises in those leagues prior to 1956 (except one expansion team).

You give the PCL teams almost all games in their time zones.

You have one oddball league (CBL) that’s all pairs of rivals that all have similar history MLB’s first expansion eras.


It’s bizarrely great.

8 division of 4 works for baseball though. I don't see a reason why they should only have 4 division of 8. 4 divisions of 8 actually geographically aligns the team aka no texas and Houston in the AL west division.

 

[atticus]

Tampa can't draw, but it has nothing to do with the heat, as their stadium is roofed.

It has to do with location. They're in St Petersburg, which is an hour's drive (including a portion over a bridge) away from the city of Tampa. And that's on a day with petty light traffic.

Which is why they have a tough time drawing. Who is rushing from Tampa to St Pete after a hard day of work to sit rush hour traffic to see the Os play the Rays?

I don’t disagree that Tampa Bay’s location is bad, but even if they built a new stadium in a better location (Ybor or wherever), their attendance would still be horrible.

Regular season baseball is almost as much about enjoying being outside and sitting in the elements, as it is about the game in the field. This is also why people hate domes for baseball. Sitting in the elements in the Floridian summer is not appealing. Sitting indoors for three hours in a dome isn’t anything special either.

There is a reason baseball struggles with attendance in the south. And unlike hockey, it is not because a higher percentage of northerners appreciate the sport more.

 

[famicommander]

So Vegas had no top level (as in the top level of play in a given sport) teams forever.

Inside five years we could see NHL, NFL, MLB, WNBA, and NLL. Something tells me there won't be enough fan dollars to go around. Glad the Knights got the head start in the market.

 

[LadyStanley]

It's not the fan $$ (who would just purchase tickets and merchandise) as much as sponsorship $$s that are of concern.

 

[oknazevad]

I don’t disagree that Tampa Bay’s location is bad, but even if they built a new stadium in a better location (Ybor or wherever), their attendance would still be horrible.

Regular season baseball is almost as much about enjoying being outside and sitting in the elements, as it is about the game in the field. This is also why people hate domes for baseball. Sitting in the elements in the Floridian summer is not appealing. Sitting indoors for three hours in a dome isn’t anything special either.

There is a reason baseball struggles with attendance in the south. And unlike hockey, it is not because a higher percentage of northerners appreciate the sport more.

And yet the Rays consistently get local TV ratings better than half the teams in MLB, which is the real reason that no one wants to give up in the market. Not only does it show that there is interest in the team, but local TV rights are a major revenue source throughout the majors, so a solid TV draw is not something they'd give up too easily.

 

[Mightygoose]

OT but the Oakland Port Commission unanimously approved to give the A's 4 year to line up it's ducks to build on Howard Terminal.

Oakland Port Commission votes to approve A's proposed ballpark plan

Still need to negotiate land deals with the city for this and the rest of the coliseum site, plus environmental review and other details.

If this is successful, then Manfred can check a box off and only the Rays will need to be resolved before expansion plans can start.

If the plan fails, the agreement expires May of 2023, A's lease runs through the 2024 season.

 

[Roadrage]

IF it ever happened...how much would it be a kick to the teeth to the city of Oakland if it lost both it's NFL and MLB team to Las Vegas?

 

[generalshepherd141]

The Vegas market isn't big enough to support 3 teams. It is the 39th-largest TV market in the US, and the smallest 3-sport market is Kansas City at 32nd, although soon it will be Cincinnati at 35th. To be fair, this is counting MLS; the smallest 3-sport market excluding MLS is Pittsburgh at 24th. MLB in Vegas would prove to be a massive failure.

 

[Digital Kid]

Tampa can't draw, but it has nothing to do with the heat, as their stadium is roofed.

It has to do with location. They're in St Petersburg, which is an hour's drive (including a portion over a bridge) away from the city of Tampa. And that's on a day with petty light traffic.

Which is why they have a tough time drawing. Who is rushing from Tampa to St Pete after a hard day of work to sit rush hour traffic to see the Os play the Rays?

This sounds exactly like the Arizona Coyotes' issue?

 

[LadyStanley]

Future of Aviators, Las Vegas Ballpark linked to MLB’s plans

MiLB Aviators season ending. Set attendance records for league.

Looking at what it might take to bring in MLB team. Not gonna happen overnight. Need to find "local" billionaire interested in building covered stadium to start.

 

[GindyDraws]

Future of Aviators, Las Vegas Ballpark linked to MLB’s plans

MiLB Aviators season ending. Set attendance records for league.

Looking at what it might take to bring in MLB team. Not gonna happen overnight. Need to find "local" billionaire interested in building covered stadium to start.

For starters, let's look at the issue regarding the Aviators and where would they go.

The Aviators managed to top Charlotte and Indianapolis (my team), who typically are at the top of the MiLB attendance figures, thanks in large part to a rebranding and a brand new ballpark. However, moving to a new city would present challenges for the club, considering High A and Double A ballparks would require upgrades or replacements to meet AAA code, which was the reason several teams had to relocate from the 80s to the early 2000s (and there was a lot of migration). Also, assuming MLB does upgrade to 32 teams, there is a likely solution in store for the AAA level, where they could expand in the Pacific Coast League and merely move Nashville and Memphis to the International League. The end result would likely see the IL make new divisions by putting Memphis and Nashville with Louisville and Indianapolis, and have Toledo & Columbus either with the two Pennsylvania teams (Lehigh Valley & Scranton/Wilkes-Barre) or the two New York teams closest to the Great Lakes (Buffalo & Rochester) with the other two creating a new division with Syracuse and Worcester (the relocating Pawtucket). Only the current IL South would remain pat.

The report mentioned San Bernardino and San Jose. I pissed off several people here when I chimed that the reason why the Seattle NHL team is putting their AHL team in Palm Springs was due to economics and not proximity to Ontario, California (and I still stand by that). However, based upon the 2018 attendance figures (which are readily available), Inland Empire was 2nd in California League attendance, just behind Lake Elsinore (and one notch below the worst Triple A team in Gwinnett), and ahead of several Double A teams, so the region could likely feasibly see 200K annually. San Jose's a stranger issue as that area is still technically (given all of the Athletics disputes over ballpark development) Giants territory, and the Giants currently have the Sacramento River Cats as their affiliate. Swapping affiliates is one thing, but getting the rights is another, plus Excite Ballpark is one of the oldest in the MiLB system, and the California League lost two teams due to aging parks (unless it's Bosse Field in Evansville, which was one of the team casualties in the 1980s, old ballparks are NOT a term of endearment in minor league baseball... heck even 20+ year ballparks can be considered hideous to a team, such as New Orleans moving to Wichita in 2020). And of Tulsa & Frisco, Tulsa would likely be the easier to reconfigure, considering how... "creative" Frisco's ballpark is. It's a frigging amusement park!

Secondly; I still stand by the fact that Las Vegas isn't likely to get a MLB team since I think NHL, NFL, and possibly MLS is the limit for the market.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Once Oakland and TB get new stadiums, I think Las Vegas might have a longer wait for MLB than you think.

Right now, of the 8 teams in the Mountain and Pacific time zones, 5 are in the NL but only 3 are in the AL. I think it would be a better idea right now to move one of the Mountain teams in the NL over to the AL in a 8-division alignment. I favor Colorado to make such a move.

I have proposed the 2 expansion teams be placed in Charlotte and New Orleans. New South Divisions would be created in the AL (consisting of Houston, Kansas City, New Orleans and Texas) and the NL (consisting of Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and Tampa Bay, who also switches leagues). The Central Divisions are renamed North Divisions, and Pittsburgh moves back into the NL East Division.

As far as AAA realignment, I have proposed creating a third league consisting of the teams in the IL West Division and the American Conference teams in the PCL. The IL, now strictly an East Coast league, gets two expansion teams.

 

[oknazevad]

Once Oakland and TB get new stadiums, I think Las Vegas might have a longer wait for MLB than you think.

Right now, of the 8 teams in the Mountain and Pacific time zones, 5 are in the NL but only 3 are in the AL. I think it would be a better idea right now to move one of the Mountain teams in the NL over to the AL in a 8-division alignment. I favor Colorado to make such a move.

I have proposed the 2 expansion teams be placed in Charlotte and New Orleans. New South Divisions would be created in the AL (consisting of Houston, Kansas City, New Orleans and Texas) and the NL (consisting of Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and Tampa Bay, who also switches leagues). The Central Divisions are renamed North Divisions, and Pittsburgh moves back into the NL East Division.

As far as AAA realignment, I have proposed creating a third league consisting of the teams in the IL West Division and the American Conference teams in the PCL. The IL, now strictly an East Coast league, gets two expansion teams.

All of this seems plausible, except for the choices of expansion teams. It would be rather unlikely that New Orleans gets a team. It's not that big of a market, and the Saints and Pelicans pretty much are all it can support. Nashville has been floated as a future market. But it may also be already maxed out with the Titans and Preds (and future MLS club slated to join).

Also, it's pretty obvious that any MLB expansion is almost certain to include Montreal. There's a large contingent of those in high positions in MLB that Montreal was needlessly shafted when it came to the loss of the Expos, and that resurrecting that team is the right thing to do. Ballpark plans there are moving along pretty strongly and steadily. The real question is the other expansion city. Portland is often mentioned, largely because the remoteness of Seattle compared to other clubs makes scheduling travel to their difficult and tiring. A Portland team could make for a travel pair, allowing road trips to swing through both cities. The real question is would it be an expansion team or the place the Athletics wind up if and when they can't get a stadium in Oakland built. Because the Howard Terminal site is already looking problematic in multiple ways, and the only plausible backup plan would be a new ballpark in the parking lot of the Colosuem (which cannot continue to be used, as it is literally falling apart).

 

[Centrum Hockey]

All of this seems plausible, except for the choices of expansion teams. It would be rather unlikely that New Orleans gets a team. It's not that big of a market, and the Saints and Pelicans pretty much are all it can support. Nashville has been floated as a future market. But it may also be already maxed out with the Titans and Preds (and future MLS club slated to join).

Also, it's pretty obvious that any MLB expansion is almost certain to include Montreal. There's a large contingent of those in high positions in MLB that Montreal was needlessly shafted when it came to the loss of the Expos, and that resurrecting that team is the right thing to do. Ballpark plans there are moving along pretty strongly and steadily. The real question is the other expansion city. Portland is often mentioned, largely because the remoteness of Seattle compared to other clubs makes scheduling travel to their difficult and tiring. A Portland team could make for a travel pair, allowing road trips to swing through both cities. The real question is would it be an expansion team or the place the Athletics wind up if and when they can't get a stadium in Oakland built. Because the Howard Terminal site is already looking problematic in multiple ways, and the only plausible backup plan would be a new ballpark in the parking lot of the Colosuem (which cannot continue to be used, as it is literally falling apart).

Do the a's have enough money to buy the whole complex with Oracle and the Colosuem use the existing land for new developments like nyc has done on multiple occasion's . Shea Stadium - history, photos and more of the New York Mets former ballpark

 

[oknazevad]

The A's owners have already proposed buying most of the site so they can redevelop it (which would be the real money maker on the deal). It wouldn't include the arena, but would include the coliseum itself and much of the parking lots, which would become mixed-use residential and commercial. Being right next to a BART station does make it desirable land.

 

[LadyStanley]

MLB commissioner says no plan to move Oakland A’s to Las Vegas

So, they say "no, not happening".


(Now/today)