If you gave Karmanos truth serum, he'd tell you that he'd have been better off taking the arena deal and staying in Hartford. With two trips to the Finals and a Cup, and a salary cap, he'd be sitting a lot prettier than he is in Raleigh. A team that good and accomplished could have peeled away a lot of on-the-fence fans in the Hartford-Boston and Hartford-NY borderlands.
If you gave Karmanos truth serum, he'd tell you that he'd have been better off taking the arena deal and staying in Hartford. With two trips to the Finals and a Cup, and a salary cap, he'd be sitting a lot prettier than he is in Raleigh. A team that good and accomplished could have peeled away a lot of on-the-fence fans in the Hartford-Boston and Hartford-NY borderlands.
nomorekids
The original, baby
I'm not going to get involved, because I'd, as a moderator, likely go to a place that would get me into trouble...
but I will say that I'm seeing Gresch throw out "facts" that aren't true, empirically.
Average attendance in Nashville has, since 03-04(the first year the Predators made the playoffs, a series that sold out all three home games within 2 hours of tickets going on sale) actually INCREASED year after year. In the first year back after the lockout, Nashville experienced an increase in AAPG of over 1000...which marked the sixth highest increase from the year before(two years before, because of the lockout) of any team in the NHL. This year's attendance appears to be on pace to mark another similar upward trend. While it looks bad that weeknight, pre-Christmas\football season games(notoriously poorly attended in most of the US non-Detroit\Minnesota\Dallas\Colorado markets) are only drawing 13-14K, it should be noted that these same games, 5 years ago, were drawing 10K. The numbers aren't great now, but they're showing growth for a team that's not taken a first round series to seven games, let alone gotten out of the first round. It's true that not all the games sold out in the playoffs last year, but I think a lot of that had to do with some poorly chosen reports in the media. There are certain Nashville journalists...both print and otherwise...that have been anti-hockey since before the team came into town, and their influence over playing up the "Vokoun is out, the Predators have no chance against the Sharks without him" angle. Not to make excuses, but it was an odd scenario.
Anyway, the only ones that ever seem to report "trouble" in Nashville, or complain about the situation...are reporters that have absolutely no say or clout in the matter, the Larry Brooks of the world. Craig Leipold\David Poile repeatedly say since the luxury tax came in to soften some of the blow, the team has actually operated better than its budget, even considering significant increase in payroll. Nashville isn't dealing with a cash-strapped ownership "group." It's owned by the richest man in the state of Wisconsin. These types of stories are fanned by hopeful sensationalists who won't rest until Nashville\Carolina(never Atlanta, who is always granted immunity in these conversations, for some reason)\Florida\Anaheim are relocated to a more "traditional," or dare-I-say tried-once-before market. It's not likely to happen. In fact, the best chance they have to see a new team in Houston(yeah, Houston...not Winnipeg or Hartford) is a team that absolutely shouldn't have to move in Pittsburgh.
but I will say that I'm seeing Gresch throw out "facts" that aren't true, empirically.
Average attendance in Nashville has, since 03-04(the first year the Predators made the playoffs, a series that sold out all three home games within 2 hours of tickets going on sale) actually INCREASED year after year. In the first year back after the lockout, Nashville experienced an increase in AAPG of over 1000...which marked the sixth highest increase from the year before(two years before, because of the lockout) of any team in the NHL. This year's attendance appears to be on pace to mark another similar upward trend. While it looks bad that weeknight, pre-Christmas\football season games(notoriously poorly attended in most of the US non-Detroit\Minnesota\Dallas\Colorado markets) are only drawing 13-14K, it should be noted that these same games, 5 years ago, were drawing 10K. The numbers aren't great now, but they're showing growth for a team that's not taken a first round series to seven games, let alone gotten out of the first round. It's true that not all the games sold out in the playoffs last year, but I think a lot of that had to do with some poorly chosen reports in the media. There are certain Nashville journalists...both print and otherwise...that have been anti-hockey since before the team came into town, and their influence over playing up the "Vokoun is out, the Predators have no chance against the Sharks without him" angle. Not to make excuses, but it was an odd scenario.
Anyway, the only ones that ever seem to report "trouble" in Nashville, or complain about the situation...are reporters that have absolutely no say or clout in the matter, the Larry Brooks of the world. Craig Leipold\David Poile repeatedly say since the luxury tax came in to soften some of the blow, the team has actually operated better than its budget, even considering significant increase in payroll. Nashville isn't dealing with a cash-strapped ownership "group." It's owned by the richest man in the state of Wisconsin. These types of stories are fanned by hopeful sensationalists who won't rest until Nashville\Carolina(never Atlanta, who is always granted immunity in these conversations, for some reason)\Florida\Anaheim are relocated to a more "traditional," or dare-I-say tried-once-before market. It's not likely to happen. In fact, the best chance they have to see a new team in Houston(yeah, Houston...not Winnipeg or Hartford) is a team that absolutely shouldn't have to move in Pittsburgh.
I totally agree. I was at a bar in Hartford watching the Hurricanes win the Stanley Cup. It was awful because it should have been happening here. I can't even fathom the craziness Hartford would have seen if they won the cup here.
Sotnos
Registered User
You're making some huge assumptions there, and you're surprised you're being questioned? OK
It's all well and good to claim that a team could have sold 18k tickets to this or that game, when in reality they were selling 11k. Not based on any facts whatsoever.
Do you know the details of his lease with Hartford or his one now with the Canes? Maybe he didn't get much of the money from suites in Hartford. Suites can go for as much as 125k a year here in Nashville, I understand that's not just hockey but it is related, especially with Nashville because the Predators get all the revenue for suite sales (so the CMA's, the Stones and Elton John have all contributed to the profits of the Predators).
That's a little unfair to the facts and mild extrapolation I've thrown out.
I'm not going to go back and read what I wrote, but I'm pretty sure I didn't focus on the short-run YOY numbers but instead made the point that attendance has gone down as the team has gotten better. I don't see how you can look at the seven years or whatever of numbers and come to any other conclusion. They drew 16.6 early on and are down to the 13-14 range now.
Where I did misspeak empirically was when I wrongly thought and wrote that the Preds made the playoffs for the first time last year. Unfortunately, that bolsters the point the regular season attendance figures make -- the more Nashvillians experience hockey in both regular season and playoff form, the fewer and fewer seem to make return engagements with the game.
As to the ownership's perception of events, the "trouble" the team is in, the local media, etc., I have no idea and have not said anything. The likelihood of the NHL going back to the three wrongly-abandoned markets is extremely low and I've said nothing else on the subject.
Seth Lake
Registered User
I believe you are thinking of the "corrupt" governor, but I could be wrong. However, if you are referring to Rowland...you are wrong IMO. I'm sure we will have to agree to disagree on this, but...
Gov. Lowell Weicker Jr. is the crooked politician that got the whole train started on the Whalers moving out of town by selling them to Karmanos...who clearly had no intentions of keeping the team in Hartford. Weicker wound up on the "advisory board" of Compuware the year after the Whalers moved to Carolina and I believe he either still remains on the "advisory board" or resigned only in the past few years.
Hartford lost the team due to a lack of an interested owner, lack of corporate support, and an extremely restricted fan base (due to the proximity of Original Six teams Boston and NYR, among other alliegences).
The true hockey fans that remain in the area have either adopted the Wolf*Pack and support AHL hockey in Hartford or have decided to spend their money elsewhere on hockey such as in other NHL markets, the other minor league hockey in CT, and/or the college and junior teams in the area.
The "so-called hockey fans" who commonly are heard about in Hartford are the ones that cannot accept that the Whalers left (however, wrong it might have been) and continue to believe that if they refuse the product that is currently there...then it will go away and things will magically get better.
As a CT native, who spent 12 years living in the city and 23 years total in the State) I jumped through hoops to attend whatever Whalers games I could (loved the Student Rush tickets - probably attended 30 of the home games the final season...including the last)...I was devastated when the Whalers left and very bitter about the game. I have described the reasoning for why I decided to support the Wolf*Pack in several other threads over the past two years and will not here, but let me just say...it was refreshing to support a franchise that was so obviously dedicated to putting a winning product on the ice. I supported the Whalers through thick and thin, but always had to put up with taunts about the Whalers record and their past history.
I moved to Nashville two years ago and am a season-ticket holder with the Predators...coming from the situation in Hartford and experiencing first-hand the NHL experience and markets in Nashville and Pittsburgh post-lockout...I believe that Hartford is not a viable NHL market at this point in time. I may change my opinion in the future, but...at this point I feel strongly about it.
Too many people in the State of Connecticut were turned off by the losing record of the Whalers when they were in existence and wouldn't come and support the team. Even more people were scarred by the saga that was the Whalers moving to Carolina and I believe that many of those people were "bandwagon" fans and would not "jump" at the opportunity to see another NHL team in Hartford. Furthermore, you have large fanbases of Bruins, Rangers, and Canadiens fans in the State that would not attend games unless "their team" was playing.
The major issue I believe is the "put-up" or "shut-up" issue in CT is a new arena. We all know that the HCC is not an NHL arena. It is outdated and lacks the amenities that modern arenas provide. The hallways were built too narrow and never expanded (unfortunately) when the roof collapsed back 25+ years ago.
I don't want to hear about the investor (Larry Goett...) ready to build or about the CDA having studies commissioned or completed. I want to see a plan in place and for the ground to be broken before Hartford can be put anywhere near the top of relocation/expansion lists for the NHL. Nashville did it and was successful in luring an NHL team for 1998 because among other reasons they had an arena ready and the Board of Governors were able to tour the arena on their trip. Kansas City is at the top of the list currently because they are building an arena of their own in hopes of luring a franchise. "Build it and they will come...eventually".
As for the initial article, we have not heard anything in Nashville that Craig Leopold is in financial trouble, nor did Brooks imply that the market was in trouble. What he said was that the "ownership group" (which Trigg so correctly pointed out is...Leopold) is in financial trouble. Who knows what that means and this might sound naive, but...maybe he is in personal financial trouble? Nothing in that article said that the Nashville market is in trouble and many in the multiple threads on this article across the HFBoards have totally ignored that paragraph and discussed the opinion portion of the article itself.
Greshner4, I have been an active member of both the Hartford and Nashville markets. I see a far better situation here than I did in Hartford and believe that with the same time that the other markets you have mentioned got to build their fanbases...Nashville will do quite well...especially with a winning product on the ice.
Keep up your fight to make Hartford a viable relocation/expansion market, but don't actively disrespect the Wolf*Pack or MSG in hopes that them leaving will strengthen your cause. I think Howard Baldwin has it correct that you must build a viable fan base for the current hockey entities in the State prior to getting any real respect from the NHL. Maybe you won't support the Wolf*Pack, but would support another AHL team. But the 40 of you doing so won't overcome the amount of diehard Wolf*Pack fans that wouldn't.
nomorekids
The original, baby
Early on, the team had the lion's share of the city's corporate support. Unfortunately, a lot of the team's biggest supporters have experienced either relocation or complete dissolution, and Steve Violetta, who has hired to come in and get it back..has failed miserably with a series of questionable campaigns. Fan support is probably higher than it has EVER been, and that's backed up by the fact that this year's season ticket holder base is the highest it has been in the team's history.
Granted that yes, early on, the team drew better than it does now...this was before corporate support fell apart. Attendance hasn't steadily declined, though...that's misleading. Instead, it went from really great...to good...to downright awful(as the team was bad for its first five years, culminating in the disastrous failure that was the 5 year pledge) parallel to the team's on-ice performance. In the past three seasons, attendance has slowly been climbing back up, and I think that as that occurs, you're going to slowly start seeing the businesses coming back.
Another fact that's not been mentioned, while the "smallness" of the Nashville market has--Nashville has two of the wealthiest per capita counties in the entire country, Davidson and Williamson(last time I checked, ranked number six in the entire nation) feeding potential suburban attendance. The way they see it...if they can make hockey fans of these wealthy residents(which really shouldn't be difficult, given how many northern transplants there are) then the growth potential is unimaginable. The money is there, the interest is getting there....but these are facts that you just have to "know" or be from Nashville to understand..because Larry Brooks certainly isn't going to mention them. He's not even aware, how could he?
Sotnos
Registered User
The season ain't over. Let's go back to what you were talking about before - averages. As nomorekids already explained:
For good or bad, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, NHL attendance in a lot of markets goes up as the NFL season winds down.
I still live in CT and I think you are wrong. Hockey is my favorite sport by far and even though I don't have an NHL team I will watch any game that's on. I've been to Boston and Long Island and New York..but I watched those games fairly unbiased and just went to see live NHL again. I'm going to Pittsburgh, Philly, and NJ in Feb.
How can any big whaler fan easily adopt the Bruins, Rangers, or the Rangers farm team!?
I don't know if you've been to a Wolf Pack game but MSG is more about silly promotions and Disney concerts inbetween periods rather than selling the hockey game to hockey fans. And attendance shows the disinterest in the current AHL tenant. CT doesn't want to be a NY suburb I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that.
And about the arguement of building up the AHL market to get the NHL...it's never mattered before and I don't see the corolation. It's apples and oranges. With that arguement Wilse-Barre/Scranton and Hershey should be in the running for an NHL team.
Seth Lake
Registered User
And so I'm saying that you are a "true hockey" fan based on your description of your activities. However, based on the statement that you unbiasedly watched games in the NHL after the Whalers left...can I ask if you have given the Wolf*Pack the same opportunity, honestly?
No offense, but...that was not the approach they took early on in their tenure. Thankfully, I was not a party to many of those games with thousands of screaming children, but I was privy to some of those experiences.
They have a great "Scout Night" that includes a game and then a sleepover downstairs in the convention center area (not sure if that still exists) and I think many of the "youth promotions" are to get the kids and their parents into the building with the hope that they will get hooked on the game and come back.
BTW, I was a season-ticket holder from Day 1 of the Wolf*Pack until I moved in the summer of 2004. I believe MSG has been pushed to those silly promotions that you mentioned due to the poor attendance. Obviously they are promotions to boost attendance, even if just for a night. If people simply showed up for the hockey...they wouldn't need those promotions.
If Boston had decided to move the P-Bruins to Hartford when the Whalers left...would you have supported them? Or if the Canadiens had moved their team in Fredricton to Hartford when the Whalers left...would you have supported the team then? Or if Carolina moved their affiliate to CT when the Whalers left...would you have supported them...oh, wait...that actually happened
Please answer honestly, I'm genuinely interested in the answer. Because I probably would have initially, but unless they showed a commitment to putting a winning franchise on the ice (neither did in their markets at the time), my support probably would have waned relatively quickly.
You're right. It didn't matter in Minnesota, but...when the North Stars left Minnesota I would venture to assume that many of the North Stars fans turned their support ($) to college and high-school hockey among the other hockey clubs up there. UConn hockey gets very minimial support despite being a NCAA DI program and I haven't really heard of too much support for Trinity hockey either. Seems to me that the only program growing in the State is Quinnipiac hockey down in the southern part of the State.
If someone has some evidence to support or refute that, I'd be interested in reading it.
Please don't patronize me naming smaller, yet very successful, AHL markets as reasons AHL attendance in Hartford doesn't matter in terms of discussing the market as an expansion/relocation site. There are many other arguments out there that are solid arguments, but that one doesn't serve any purpose.
However, based on the statement that you unbiasedly watched games in the NHL after the Whalers left...can I ask if you have given the Wolf*Pack the same opportunity, honestly?
If Boston had decided to move the P-Bruins to Hartford when the Whalers left...would you have supported them? Or if the Canadiens had moved their team in Fredricton to Hartford when the Whalers left...would you have supported the team then? Or if Carolina moved their affiliate to CT when the Whalers left...would you have supported them...oh, wait...that actually happened
Please answer honestly, I'm genuinely interested in the answer. Because I probably would have initially, but unless they showed a commitment to putting a winning franchise on the ice (neither did in their markets at the time), my support probably would have waned relatively quickly.
First of all yes I have been to over 30 Wolfpack games...but not many in the past few years. I've found other places to get my hockey fix. I have trouble watching the AHL and watching players that would rather be playing in the big city rather than where they are playing. And each season there is a different batch of players so it's hard to get attached. Ken Gernander was great though. A class act.
For your next question New York, Boston, or Carolina would not be accepted well here just because of history. Atleast not for another 10 years or so. You can argue that Hartford had a fued with Montreal so that may be a problem too but I think it's Connecticut's location that makes NY and Boston unattractive options. I don't think I need to explain Carolinas reason for why their AHL team could never play here..
I agree with you college hockey needs to grow more in Connecticut. I am an alumni of Quinnipiac and I was the beat writer for www.USCHO.com for Quinnipiac hockey. That program has grown drastically and the state of the art arena for them will be opened in late January! That's a step in the right direction for college hockey in CT.
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Timmy
Registered User
- Feb 2, 2005
- 10,691
- 26
Apparently I suck at multiple quoting sorry about that.
Well, that's why you don't get an NHL team then.
Seth Lake
Registered User
Apparently I suck at multiple quoting sorry about that.
Use [*QUOTE*] at the start of any quote and [*/QUOTE*] at the end of any quote you want to make. Please take out the asterisks. I couldn't post that without the asterisks otherwise it wouldn't show up.
Seth Lake
Registered User
Yeah, Gernander was/is GREAT. Quickly became my favorite player and I would very favorably put him up there with Ronnie Francis as the greatest hockey figure in Hartford hockey history...although I still would put Francis at the top.
I assume it is harder the past two seasons than ever before to really become attached to a player. Gernander was a really a gem and I'm glad he is still a part of the organization, but with the influx of younger players and the losing record that has accompanied the team this season. Even I think I would have a hard time getting too excited about the club. Although I know I would still have season-tickets if I was there, if for no other reason than to watch live hockey.
That is very honestly the first time I have heard a "Whalers fan", especially a member of the HWBC admit that is true. I have had many arguments through the years with "die-hard" Whalers fans that insist that ANY other team's AHL affiliate would draw much better...including those listed above.
I too am very excited about the development of Quinnipiac hockey and believe that one of the main differences between UConn and Quinnipiac is the support of the school. I'm not talking about fan support, but rather Quinnipiac has shown a commitment to building a strong athletics program that includes hockey, while UConn has repeatedly demonstrated that they do not have any plans for their hockey program to be a major member of their athletic department (at least on the men's side of things - women's hockey is great at UConn).
I would strongly recommend that the HWBC works toward building support for UConn, Quinnipiac, Trinity, Wesleyan, and the other college/high school/junior programs in the State. I believe that this is the true key to building a grassroots fanbase again and expanding the desire to get NHL hockey back into the State.
From an outsiders prospective, I view the HWBC as a group of disgruntled fans who go out of their way to bring negative attention to the sport in the community. I know that is not your intentions or your actions, but there is a lot of venom that comes from posters claiming to be members of or supporters of the HWBC that gives the club a bad name and doesn't do any good IMO.
Hartford and other markets should do everything they can to put themselves atop the NHL expansion/relocation list, but speaking negatively about other cities or trying to compare other cities to their own is not the way to go about it.
Seth Lake
Registered User
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Actually, the decision to move out of Hartford aside... the decision to move to Raleigh was kinda dumb. Raleigh is not the major city in the Carolinas. Charlotte would've been far smarter. Raleigh is an area about 1/3 the population of Charlotte. Coporate oppurtunity is slightly higher in Charlotte, with Raleigh boasting big names like Cisco, RBC Centura, First Citizen's Bank, and Nortel Networks . Charlotte boasts Wachovia (formerly First Union), Bank of America, Duke Energy, Time Warner, Meineke and Lowe's.... not to mention NASCAR corporate, who assuredly would be major supporters of the NHL in Charlotte, just as they are of the NBA and NFL. Charlotte is the 2nd largest financial center in the country after NYC.
Charlotte's desire to be added to the list of big American cities is apparent with the amount of high rise development in the last 20 years, and the fact that they lured the NFL and re-lured the NBA into town. The willingness of the city to build a new arena was apparent with the building of Charlotte Bobcats arena, completed in 2005.
Stupid move going to Raleigh, comparatively? Definitely.
Charlotte's desire to be added to the list of big American cities is apparent with the amount of high rise development in the last 20 years, and the fact that they lured the NFL and re-lured the NBA into town. The willingness of the city to build a new arena was apparent with the building of Charlotte Bobcats arena, completed in 2005.
Stupid move going to Raleigh, comparatively? Definitely.
I understand that and I agree that some members of the Hartford Whalers Booster Club come off as negative. Negativity won't get us anywhere but if you are referring to www.whalerwatch.com and the arguements on that messageboard, some outside posters come in and rile up the message board with the "NHL will never come back. Whalers suck, Wolf Pack is what we have get over it!" attitude that just isn't needed and that leads to negativity both ways. I mean that site is a Whalers message board..leave us alone!
But I think most of us respect all NHL markets and will feel bad if any of the 30 current teams move but we can't help but be vultures slightly. I admit I wouldn't mind Nashville relocating to Hartford but I'm not going to bash the fans of Nashville or the team. That does no good at all.
Nice post.
Now, why don't you actually refute the point.
Is Nashville in trouble?
I hope not. But I wouldn't be surprised.
nomorekids
The original, baby
I refuted the point when I saw that some were actually going to argue it. Refer please to my two subsequent posts.
Seth Lake
Registered User
No, I was not referring to that messageboard...as a matter of fact, I've never been there before, but wouldn't doubt that people come onto the board for no other purpose than to start trouble.
I clearly remember those same people (including those claiming to be from Carolina - but obviously they remained anonymous behind screen names) going onto the Hartford Courant's feedback portion of their site the morning after the Hurricanes won the Cup last season for no other purpose than to "rub it in" and call the Whalers and their fans "losers", etc.
You are right...people need to grow up and stop the stupidity that are posts like that.
At the same time just as you point to those posters going onto Whalers sites and making inflammatory posts, it is the same thing when those of us here in Nashville see similiar posts about our franchise, our fanbase, and our market. Is Nashville a traditional hockey market...hell no...but it is a growing market that is developing their fanbase from scratch. There are many "transplants" here (like myself) that grew up in traditional markets and have played/followed the game since near birth and those folks played a large part in the franchise coming to town (read the book Hockey Tonk...it describes their role in the expansion process), but we are developing new fans all the time. Since the end of the lockout the Predators have done a lot of marketing and have done a lot to get new fans into the seats. I seriously have not met in almost two years a single person that has attended a game that doesn't want to go back. Are they hooked yet or stepping in line to purchase season tickets...no, but they are intrigued and will come back.
Give Nashville time and the market will become stable. The Predators have a great arena lease agreement and with the salary cap are not in financial trouble. Now the Predators can continue to put a winning product on the ice and use it as a selling point. Prior to the lockout, that was not the case.
I find myself rooting for Nashville more than most of the Western Conference teams. They're a pretty likable team and I'm looking forward to Vokoun coming back for your sake and for my fantasy hockey team.
ej_pens
Registered User
You can't be serious that the move of the Nords from Quebec to Colorado, a team that has sold out practically every game played in Denver, hasn't been a benefit to the NHL.
The NHL lost nothing by moving any of those three teams. They were marginally supported over the years, lacked much corporate support, played in old outdated arenas, and were, for the most part, unsuccessful on the ice as franchises.
The glorification of the Jets, Whalers, and Nords on this board is unbelievable.
