Confirmed Trade: [LAK/TOR] Jake Muzzin for 2019 1st round pick, Sean Durzi, and Carl Grundstrom - Part II

[Rob Brown]

There is nothing contradictory speculating on what insiders Friedman and Dreger wrote. This is a hockey forum. If I had to dig up posts, yours included, I would wager you would have what can be perceived as contradicting statements. We post to what the information is reported at each snapshot in time of trade speculation. Seeing what I see of Muzzin now, and I will also say I am open to him improving. I would say the Kings got a very good package for him. But again, why care what I think. Kings fans have said Muzzin was a polarizing player on their site. Sort of like how Gardiner is a polarizing player on the Leafs forum. Best to ask them.

I mean...you did contradict yourself. For days you were going on and on about how Muzzin is a top pairing d-man and how the Leafs were desperate and would have to pay up big time by giving the Kings one of those three guys. You didn't mention Grundstrom once. And now that the trade is done, Muzzin is slow and the Kings won hands down despite getting far less than what you originally said was the asking price.

 

[al secord]

Funny, this was you back in January before the trade:

"If its a deal with the Leafs. It would take something like Kapanen or Sandlin, Liljegren would be my 3rd choice plus the 1st for Muzzin. Otherwise the Kings can look at other offers they may be better."

"But you may be one that is fantasizing a B prospect is getting Muzzin when quality D men are scarce and in high demand at the TDL."

"Kings need to up their speed in their fwd group. I can see them insisting on Kapanen + the 1st for Muzzin."

So you were confident it would have to be one of the Leafs best prospects or young players, in one of Kapanen, Sandin or Liljegren because Muzzin is a solid top pairing guy that the Leafs desperately needed. You also said this in the same thread:

"I repeat this was for a impending UFA. Muzzin is signed for next season at a cap friendly number, and he is also a #1 pairing at worst top #2 pairing guy on a contender. "

You have since backpedaled:

"The thing I never realized is just how slow Muzzin can be. Yeah, you nailed it. When the trade happened, some people were quick to chest pump."

And this was called out by a Leafs fan (Liferleafer) before the trade even went down:

"Calling it right now....if the Leafs trade for Muzzin, you will be in the thread saying 2 things:

1. No matter what we trade for him, you will say we lost the trade.

2. The minute the deal is done, you will be calling Muzzin a terrible addition and nothing more than a #4 defender."

So, in summary, you were more than confident that the Kings would demand someone like Kapanen because the Leafs were desperate and Dubas would get backed into a corner. You were not thinking of Grundstrom as a suitable option at all, yet now he's amazing and Muzzin is slow and no good, and Leafs fans were too quick to pump their chest and be happy about the trade. Nothing new.

Glorious.

If you didn't already know...

 

[Osprey]

Muzzin has been credited with 29 giveaways since the trade, compared to only 17 for the next-highest defenseman on the team, Zaitsev. Added to his totals with LA, he has the 7th-most giveaways among defensemen league wide this season. He has also played only the 4th-most minutes per game of Toronto defensemen and he's taken the most penalties (6, compared to 4 for the player with the next most). I think that it's an exaggeration to say that he's been fantastic and a #2 defenseman. He looks like what a lot of people called him: a solid, but polarizing, second-pairing guy who will make good plays and bad plays. The Leafs needed a top-4 defenseman, so his acquisition naturally improved the team, but we mustn't get carried away with the accolades, IMO.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I mean...you did contradict yourself. For days you were going on and on about how Muzzin is a top pairing d-man and how the Leafs were desperate and would have to pay up big time by giving the Kings one of those three guys. You didn't mention Grundstrom once. And now that the trade is done, Muzzin is slow and the Kings won hands down despite getting far less than what you originally said was the asking price.

Not sure how? Leafs did pay a good price for him. A view shared by many. Muzzin should be on the first pairing with Rielly. My opinion has not changed. Babcock does not think so. And again, another shared view by many has been Muzzin has been good and bad since he became a Leafs. TSN's Ferraro agreed. Heck even Leafs fans have said so. I am mentioning Grundstrom now since he scored 2 goals in his first 2 games, and has played a physical game of heavy hockey doing it. Lots to like here. Leafs fans should be just happy about getting Muzzin instead of worrying about the Kings return. Grundstrom is playing well. And naturally people are posting about it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Its a given already that LA picks around that spot ?

Kings picked Kempe not so long ago around that spot. The same for Toronto with Sandin. I see some true gems still available around 20-30 in this years draft.

Kempe and Sandin are 2 cherry picked examples, that doesn't change what the average value of a late 1st round pick is.

 

[Rob Brown]

Not sure how? Leafs did pay a good price for him. A view shared by many. Muzzin should be on the first pairing with Rielly. My opinion has not changed. Babcock does not think so. And again, another shared view by many has been Muzzin has been good and bad since he became a Leafs. TSN's Ferraro agreed. Heck even Leafs fans have said so. I am mentioning Grundstrom now since he scored 2 goals in his first 2 games, and has played a physical game of heavy hockey doing it. Lots to like here. Leafs fans should be just happy about getting Muzzin instead of worrying about the Kings return. Grundstrom is playing well. And naturally people are posting about it.

Once again, I'm not worried about the Kings return because I like Muzzin and was happy for the Leafs to get him, and I also feel like the Kings did well. I'm not even talking about whether I personally like the return or not. I'm not sure how you aren't following, but I'll accept the fact that you will just continue to dance around it.

 

[zeke]

Muzzin has been credited with 29 giveaways since the trade, compared to only 17 for the next-highest defenseman on the team, Zaitsev. Added to his totals with LA, he has the 7th-most giveaways among defensemen league wide this season. He has also played only the 4th-most minutes per game of Toronto defensemen and he's taken the most penalties (6, compared to 4 for the player with the next most). I think that it's an exaggeration to say that he's been fantastic and a #2 defenseman. He looks like what a lot of people called him: a solid, but polarizing, second-pairing guy who will make good plays and bad plays. The Leafs needed a top-4 defenseman, so his acquisition naturally improved the team, but we mustn't get carried away with the accolades, IMO.

Giveaways

1.Matheson 111
2.Burns 101
3.Petry 99
4.Ekblad 96
5.Yandle 93
6.Doughty 92
7.Muzzin 88
8.Heiskanen 82
9.Brodie 81
10.Carlson 77
11.Provorov 76
12.Rielly 74
13.Lindholm 72
14.Letang 71
15.Orlov 70


List of terrible dmen right there.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Muzzin has been credited with 29 giveaways since the trade, compared to only 17 for the next-highest defenseman on the team, Zaitsev. Added to his totals with LA, he has the 7th-most giveaways among defensemen league wide this season. He has also played only the 4th-most minutes per game of Toronto defensemen and he's taken the most penalties (6, compared to 4 for the player with the next most). I think that it's an exaggeration to say that he's been fantastic and a #2 defenseman. He looks like what a lot of people called him: a solid, but polarizing, second-pairing guy who will make good plays and bad plays. The Leafs needed a top-4 defenseman, so his acquisition naturally improved the team, but we mustn't get carried away with the accolades, IMO.

Why don't you mention the Defenceman ahead of him in giveaways. You know, Drew Doughty, Brent Burns, Jeff Petry etc.

Toilets, all of them.

*Edit, beaten by Zeke

 

[Finnish your Czech]

Grundstrom really fits the Leafs long term over someone like Bracco. I doubt the Kings would have taken Bracco in the deal though since it's only been over the past couple months that Bracco has shown to be a A-/B+ prospect

 

[Menzinger]

We don't have any high end forward prospects and while Bracco is more skilled his game may not translate to the NHL . Grundstrom was our best all around prospect and a safer bet so you could have listed him as 1st or 2nd best forward prospect depending on how you much faith you have in Bracco being able to make the next step .

He was he top end prospect on a bottom 5/10 prospect pool. Let’s not pretend he was a blue chip asset

 

[KingPuckChoo]

Why would you bump this thread bragging when you were pumping Muzzin's tires just last month? So the guys you got back are performing well and so is Muzzin lol

each time a bozo that was traded scored a goal for his new team, a thread got bumped no problem

i do it and i get grilled? wtv man... wtv

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Kempe and Sandin are 2 cherry picked examples, that doesn't change what the average value of a late 1st round pick is.

Bull, plenty of good examples to find, nothing cherry picked.

You guys act like you are glad you got rid of a first rounder, just to minimalize it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bull, plenty of good examples to find, nothing cherry picked.

You guys act like you are glad you got rid of a first rounder, just to minimalize it.

But you're not making any sense here my good man.

Picking two names is in fact a perfect example of cherry picking.

Plenty of good examples - of course there are, both good and bad which is why looking at historical averages makes sense whereas cherry picking does not.

I'm glad at getting rid of a first rounder ... um I have no idea what you're getting at here, perhaps you could explain yourself? I'm glad we got Muzzin but I'm not downplaying what we had to give up for him, in fact if anything, I'm doing the opposite by arguing that Grundstrom may well be worth MORE than a typical 1st round pick as opposed to less as you were saying.

 

[zeke]

Bull, plenty of good examples to find, nothing cherry picked.

You guys act like you are glad you got rid of a first rounder, just to minimalize it.

You always want to make sure you're evaluating a draft pick properly, and not just based on fantasy.

For example, if that late 1st rounder turned into a prospect as good as grundstrom at age 21, you're ALREADY be ahead of the "average'" result of late 1st rounders.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Grundstrom really fits the Leafs long term over someone like Bracco. I doubt the Kings would have taken Bracco in the deal though since it's only been over the past couple months that Bracco has shown to be a A-/B+ prospect

Yes it's possible the Leafs would have preferred to keep Grundstrom, not a sure thing though. Stylewise sure, we have tons of skill but could dearly use the grittyness that Grundstrom would bring. On the other hand, it's possible they have Bracco rated so highly that they'd rather keep him, you never know.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

But you're not making any sense here my good man.

Picking two names is in fact a perfect example of cherry picking.

Plenty of good examples - of course there are, both good and bad which is why looking at historical averages makes sense whereas cherry picking does not.

I'm glad at getting rid of a first rounder ... um I have no idea what you're getting at here, perhaps you could explain yourself? I'm glad we got Muzzin but I'm not downplaying what we had to give up for him, in fact if anything, I'm doing the opposite by arguing that Grundstrom may well be worth MORE than a typical 1st round pick as opposed to less as you were saying.

No you make sense.

That 1st rounder was the main piece of the trade and that has not changed because Grundstrom has found the back of the net.

That is what I said.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

You always want to make sure you're evaluating a draft pick properly, and not just based on fantasy.

For example, if that late 1st rounder turned into a prospect as good as grundstrom at age 21, you're ALREADY be ahead of the "average'" result of late 1st rounders.

i will tell you something about fantasy

You still need to tell me how you are so sure that the Kings pick 27th-30th.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No you make sense.

That 1st rounder was the main piece of the trade and that has not changed because Grundstrom has found the back of the net.

That is what I said.

That's what you think, hey that's great. You're wrong though and if you think Kempe/Sandin represent what a late first round pick typically gets you, that's no doubt where you went wrong. Grundstrom is worth more than a late 1st round pick and that has nothing to do with him scoring a couple of goals for you, most Leaf fans could have told you that at the time of the trade.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

That's what you think, hey that's great. You're wrong though and if you think Kempe/Sandin represent what a late first round pick typically gets you, that's no doubt where you went wrong. Grundstrom is worth more than a late 1st round pick and that has nothing to do with him scoring a couple of goals for you, most Leaf fans could have told you that at the time of the trade.

Laughable if you think I am wrong. Yeah Blake started the trade talks with Grundstrom, right...

What Leafs fans say, i take that with a grain of salt.

The problem here is that Toronto probably gave up two main pieces and that is too hard too swallow.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Once again, I'm not worried about the Kings return because I like Muzzin and was happy for the Leafs to get him, and I also feel like the Kings did well. I'm not even talking about whether I personally like the return or not. I'm not sure how you aren't following, but I'll accept the fact that you will just continue to dance around it.

Than why are you trying so hard to convince yourself the value could have been more than Grundstrom/Durzi/and the 1st rd pick? People speculate on trades all the time on a trade speculation thread. The way Dubas has been folding in negotiations and trades it wasn't inconceivable he would pay even more than he already gave up in this deal right? If you don't like speculation on trades, you are in the wrong place.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Grundstrom really fits the Leafs long term over someone like Bracco. I doubt the Kings would have taken Bracco in the deal though since it's only been over the past couple months that Bracco has shown to be a A-/B+ prospect

Bracco had good numbers for Kitchener , 51 points in 27 games one season, isn't something to look down at and Bracco put up similar numbers in his rookie campaign to Grundstrom this year. Not saying Grundstrom is bad or one is better, I simply do not know outside of numbers but I think you might be underrating Bracco a little bit because he does seem to put up -at the very least- a lot of assists on a yearly basis

 

[Rob Brown]

Than why are you trying so hard to convince yourself the value could have been more than Grundstrom/Durzi/and the 1st rd pick? People speculate on trades all the time on a trade speculation thread. The way Dubas has been folding in negotiations and trades it wasn't inconceivable he would pay even more than he already gave up in this deal right? If you don't like speculation on trades, you are in the wrong place.

I never said the value could have been more, that was you. In fact, when the thread that said that the Kings wanted a 1st + prospect first opened, I was one of the people saying that it wouldn't take Kapanen, Sandin or Liljegren. It was you that insisted that one of those three guys was the asking price. Are you seriously not even following at all?

 

[hotpaws]

He was he top end prospect on a bottom 5/10 prospect pool. Let’s not pretend he was a blue chip asset

did you miss where i led off by saying ''we don't have any high end forward prospects'' ?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I never said the value could have been more, that was you. In fact, when the thread that said that the Kings wanted a 1st + prospect first opened, I was one of the people saying that it wouldn't take Kapanen, Sandin or Liljegren. It was you that insisted that one of those three guys was the asking price. Are you seriously not even following at all?

And...What does this have to do with anything related to Grundstrom/Durzi/and a 1st rd pick for Muzzin?

Are you trying to feel better by claiming Lilegren and a 1st is better than the package the Kings got. If so you would be wrong.

 

[Rob Brown]

And...What does this have to do with anything related to Grundstrom/Durzi/and a 1st rd pick for Muzzin?

Are you trying to feel better by claiming Lilegren and a 1st is better than the package the Kings got. If so you would be wrong.

(Mod)

Funny, you didn't mention either Durzi or Grundstrom at all before the trade, but you did mention Liljegren.