Laine+Matthews vs Boeser+Barazal

[Morgs]

This isn't close...

 

[Love]

Let's see where Barzal & Boeser were at 18 years of age....Oh, that's right. Playing junior hockey. What about 19....oh...still playing junior hockey....Just buzz off with your hot takes about either of these guys being better than Laine, or even close to Matthews.

I agree that one should vote for Matthews and Laine but your reasoning is sooooo bad.

Try to think of a real reason. It really isn’t hard. Does what a player was at age 18 matter when comparing them later on?

 

[Columbia]

The poll would be far better served being structured as Matthews vs Barzal vs Laine, as opposed to this.

 

[Tkachuky]

Lol, come back to me in a few years.

Go start a poll...

 

[Laineux]

Laine + Matthews, but it's funny how people are acting like they are some vets with proven track record compared to Barzal & Boeser.

Barzal has arguably been better than Matthews this year in a sample size that is half of Matthews' career.

 

[CodeE]

On the mainboard, Isles fans are making the argument that Barzal should be considered closer to the Crosby tier than the Matthews tier. Laine is also getting slagged undeservedly on that board, so I am wondering if that's just a few loud people or the majority.

And in this thread, Leaf fans are making the argument that Matthews is worth more than both Barzal & Boeser. Should I create another poll to wonder if that's just a few loud people or the majority?

 

[Tkachuky]

And in this thread, Leaf fans are making the argument that Matthews is worth more than both Barzal & Boeser. Should I create another poll to wonder if that's just a few loud people or the majority?

Poll would close very fast...

 

[CodeE]

Poll would close very fast...

I doubt Barzal & Boeser vs. Matthews & Marner would even go in Toronto's favor.

 

[Tkachuky]

I doubt Barzal & Boeser vs. Matthews & Marner would even go in Toronto's favor.

I think that's a pretty decent poll actually. But to suggest that Matthews > Boeser and Barzal is the biggest bullshit I have heard on these boards.

 

[Laineux]

I mean Barzal has more points and ppg, better possession stats, higher p/60 in pp, ES and 5vs5 and much more sustainable oish% than Matthews.

 

[nowhereman]

I'd go as far as saying I'd take one of Matthews or Laine over both Boeser and Barzal.

Especially Matthews.

That's an absolutely ludicrous statement.

 

[Kelly]

Matthews > Laine > Barzal > Boeser.

ez.

 

[rent free]

I mean Barzal has more points and ppg, better possession stats, higher p/60 in pp, ES and 5vs5 and much more sustainable oish% than Matthews.

but he isn't as good defensively

 

[rent free]

Laine + Matthews, but it's funny how people are acting like they are some vets with proven track record compared to Barzal & Boeser.

Barzal has arguably been better than Matthews this year in a sample size that is half of Matthews' career.

and matthews is better than laine. whats your point?

 

[93LEAFS]

I mean Barzal has more points and ppg, better possession stats, higher p/60 in pp, ES and 5vs5 and much more sustainable oish% than Matthews.

Matthews is better at getting primary points, and has a better xGF%. Matthews oiSH% is quite high at 5v5 (13.79), but his numbers are down on the PP (8.7%). Barzal is riding a 9.795 oiSH at 5v5, but also a 17.9 on the PP, and is much more dependent on secondary assists.

Matthews numbers over 2 years is pretty normalized, having a 13.2% oiSH% on the powerplay and a 9.9% oiSH% at 5v5. Now, the 5v5 is notably above league average, but when you realize where Matthews lines tend to be shooting from and his skill level, it should be higher. If you combine his 2 years, he's playing at 73 point pace. Barzal's current pace is higher, but, he also plays easier minutes, and gets more powerplay time by almost a minute a game with his teams top PP unit while Babcock has chosen an approach that divides the time between 2 units.

 

[Kelly]

Question for some folks here -- how many points do you think Barzal gets playing on the Leafs or Jets this year?

I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be near what he is on the Islanders -- would he even be playing center?

He's had a great season, but I think his points totals are reflective of the opportunity he's had with the Islanders weak middle of the ice, and system. Zero chance he'd be the leading scorer (ppg) for the teams as Scheifele, Wheeler and Matthews are clearly better, but I'm curious to see what some peoples guesses are.

45-50 fair?

 

[LordNeverLose]

Matthews is better at getting primary points, and has a better xGF%. Matthews oiSH% is quite high at 5v5 (13.79), but his numbers are down on the PP (8.7%). Barzal is riding a 9.795 oiSH at 5v5, but also a 17.9 on the PP, and is much more dependent on secondary assists.

Matthews numbers over 2 years is pretty normalized, having a 13.2% oiSH% on the powerplay and a 9.9% oiSH% at 5v5. Now, the 5v5 is notably above league average, but when you realize where Matthews lines tend to be shooting from and his skill level, it should be higher. If you combine his 2 years, he's playing at 73 point pace. Barzal's current pace is higher, but, he also plays easier minutes, and gets more powerplay time by almost a minute a game with his teams top PP unit while Babcock has chosen an approach that divides the time between 2 units.

1. Secondary assists count too, and to dismiss Barzal's game because he has more of them than Matthews is ridiculous. For example is this not a valuable play by Barzal because he only got a secondary assist?

2. Matthews oXS% is 51.0 compared to 51.9 for Barzal. So they play in similar situations (both on PP1, neither on PK). And the argument that Barzal faces easier competition needs to go away. He regularly faces off against other teams' top units, both home and away. Just ask Alain Vigneault

And for the record I'd take Matthews over Barzal

 

[Columbia]

Question for some folks here -- how many points do you think Barzal gets playing on the Leafs or Jets this year?

I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be near what he is on the Islanders -- would he even be playing center?

He's had a great season, but I think his points totals are reflective of the opportunity he's had with the Islanders weak middle of the ice, and system. Zero chance he'd be the leading scorer (ppg) for the teams as Scheifele, Wheeler and Matthews are clearly better, but I'm curious to see what some peoples guesses are.

45-50 fair?

It's all conjure, and the fact is that we simply don't know. The only pure fact is that he has 62 points in 59 games thus far, as a rookie.

 

[Kelly]

It's all conjure, and the fact is that we simply don't know. The only pure fact is that he has 62 points in 59 games thus far, as a rookie.

Yes, that's why I asked for a guess.

 

[Critical13]

And in this thread, Leaf fans are making the argument that Matthews is worth more than both Barzal & Boeser. Should I create another poll to wonder if that's just a few loud people or the majority?

If you’d like to?

 

[93LEAFS]

1. Secondary assists count too, and to dismiss Barzal's game because he has more of them than Matthews is ridiculous. For example is this not a valuable play by Barzal because he only got a secondary assist?

2. Matthews oXS% is 51.0 compared to 51.9 for Barzal. So they play in similar situations (both on PP1, neither on PK). And the argument that Barzal faces easier competition needs to go away. He regularly faces off against other teams' top units, both home and away. Just ask Alain Vigneault

And for the record I'd take Matthews over Barzal

Matthews isn’t on PP1. Plus Isles stack the top unit. By ice time the Marner-Bozak-Kadri-JVR unit would be put #1 unit.

Secondary assists count, but they lack the same repeatability as primary points.

 

[NarcoPolo]

Matthews is better at getting primary points, and has a better xGF%. Matthews oiSH% is quite high at 5v5 (13.79), but his numbers are down on the PP (8.7%). Barzal is riding a 9.795 oiSH at 5v5, but also a 17.9 on the PP, and is much more dependent on secondary assists.

Matthews numbers over 2 years is pretty normalized, having a 13.2% oiSH% on the powerplay and a 9.9% oiSH% at 5v5. Now, the 5v5 is notably above league average, but when you realize where Matthews lines tend to be shooting from and his skill level, it should be higher. If you combine his 2 years, he's playing at 73 point pace. Barzal's current pace is higher, but, he also plays easier minutes, and gets more powerplay time by almost a minute a game with his teams top PP unit while Babcock has chosen an approach that divides the time between 2 units.

Great post. On a similar note, the fact that Matthews has a higher oiSH% at 5on5 versus the powerplay is pretty weird. Idk if it's very common for players who play on the powerplay regularly for that to happen, but either way, the "Matthews unsustainable production" narrative should be put to bed with this post. 5on5 his production is bound to take a dip but we should definitely see an uptick in his powerplay production as well.

 

[tony d]

Laine and Matthews.

 

[Cleetus]

On the mainboard, Isles fans are making the argument that Barzal should be considered closer to the Crosby tier than the Matthews tier. Laine is also getting slagged undeservedly on that board, so I am wondering if that's just a few loud people or the majority.

hrmm last time Barzal played the leafs he was -4 and looked lost out there, he is a skilled player but is not anywhere close to the big boys! isles fans are funny!

 

[Laineux]

Matthews is better at getting primary points, and has a better xGF%. Matthews oiSH% is quite high at 5v5 (13.79), but his numbers are down on the PP (8.7%). Barzal is riding a 9.795 oiSH at 5v5, but also a 17.9 on the PP, and is much more dependent on secondary assists.

Barzal's relative xgf% is much better though.

Ignoring PP completely, Barzal produces slightly less primary points in ES but that could mostly be covered by difference in oish%. Matthews might be better, but Barzal is definitely making it a discussion.