Laine’s off-season training (see warning in post 832)

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Whileee

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Master chefs don’t cook great because of just how great ingredients they use. The biggest reason why they are master chefs, is because they know how to make the cooking process work in the way that makes the food tasty.

You need to have the right amounts of different ingredients and enough of the main ingredients and then you need to use the right timing with the cooking. The ingredients are not necessarily something newly invented though.

The same way applies to training and so many other things in life. You don’t need to necessarily find some completely new methods in general, but how you put ingredients together to make the end result very good - that is what makes true professionals so good in so many things.
Maybe that's true for Rautala, but I have no evidence yet that it's true. Talented athletes that are driven to improve tend to train hard and get better with a wide range of trainers and regimens. So far, the only evidence I've seen up close is Laine, and I saw a step backward after his first year in his quickness and stamina. Most other young players, including big players like Lowry, tended to get faster and stronger each year. I'm not going to follow Rautala on blind faith, or the assurances of internet posters.. I'll base it on how Laine progresses.
 
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Ippenator

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I have no idea how you got that from my post
But hat’s exactly what you are saying when you are a smartass who thinks that what Laine does with his summer training is so wrong and that he should do exactly what some others do. Rautala is a real professional and the Jets coches and management have approved with Laine training with Rautala. You think that just a guy from the internet like you knows everything so much better than all those professional people and Laine. With that you are practically also announcing Laine and his supporting groups and professionals as drooling idiots. That’s the clear message that you are sending.
 
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Ippenator

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Maybe that's true for Rautala, but I have no evidence yet that it's true. Talented athletes that are driven to improve tend to train hard and get better with a wide range of trainers and regimens. So far, the only evidence I've seen up close is Laine, and I saw a step backward after his first year in his quickness and stamina. Most other young players, including big players like Lowry, tended to get faster and stronger each year. I'm not going to follow Rautala on blind faith, or the assurances of internet posters.. I'll base it on how Laine progresses.
Well it’s your own fault then if you can’t comprehend the great results Rautala has had with his trainee’s. Rantanen and Ristolainen are excellent examples of what good training with Rautala can do to a player. Physically real top athletes at the NHL level.

Tells a lot about your impatience though, that you seriously expect somekind of very great results only after 1 or 2 off seasons, when in Laine’s case there has been the definite need to fix also his core muscle situation that made him clearly gain some additional weight during last off season. But that was very much needed and unavoidable, as he simply needs to he physically better for battles and at the same time core muscles need to be on a good enough level for being at the needed level for developing his acceleration. Explosive leg muscles and strong core muscles are the engine for good skating and good acceleration. No skater will be a very quick skater unless they have those areas at a good enough level.

Patience and better understanding of the human body and effective training methods is what is really needed here. Unfortunately some of the people here have already chosen what is right and what is wrong without knowing the important facts too well, and unfortunately no facts seem to make them change their minds. And I’m not one of those people for sure.
 
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Tommigun

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Master chefs don’t cook great because of just how great ingredients they use. The biggest reason why they are master chefs, is because they know how to make the cooking process work in the way that makes the food tasty.

You need to have the right amounts of different ingredients and enough of the main ingredients and then you need to use the right timing with the cooking. The ingredients are not necessarily something newly invented though.

The same way applies to training and so many other things in life. You don’t need to necessarily find some completely new methods in general, but how you put ingredients together to make the end result very good - that is what makes true professionals so good in so many things.

So Rautala, could you please point me to any success stories where he was instrumental. I think he’s just air but please prove me wrong. And with success stories I mean something like Hellebuyck becoming a beast in one off-season after hiring a new trainer, or Scheifele like development. Not just natural player progression.
 

Tommigun

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But hat’s exactly what you are saying when you are a smartass who thinks that what Laine does with his summer training is so wrong and that he should do exactly what some others do.

Maybe he should do what others do so his skating would stop regressing. Rautala only seems to be doing harm so I think it’d help Laine to “do exactly what some others do”.
 

TannedBum

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I don’t really know if it should or not? Should it? You probably know the answer yourself. Seems that you are yourself really trying something like that by throwing some childish unrealistic hyperboles. But yeah, each to their own, I guess...
Childish? Someone has a nerve. Armia this and Armia that. It's middle of the summer. Loosen up a bit man.
 

grieves

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Just maybe to add something (perhaps relevant, perhaps not) to this discussion, here are Rautala's trainees from over the years listed on their website:



Combined achievements:

45 gold medals (FEL)
3 gold medals (WHC)
3 gold medals (U-20)
4 gold medals (SHL)

27 silver medals (FEL)
27 silver medals (WHC)
5 silver medals (Olympics)
6 Silver medals (World Cup)

14 bronze medals (FEL)
7 bronze medals (WHC)
17 bronze medals (Olympics)
3 bronze medals (U-20)

3 Calder Cups
1 Stanley Cup


The Rautala training group is a father & son enterprise, so it's not just one guy.

Far be it from me to assess if what they are doing right and wrong but I would be damn sure I know what I'm talking about before starting to criticize these guys.
 

Ippenator

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Maybe he should do what others do so his skating would stop regressing. Rautala only seems to be doing harm so I think it’d help Laine to “do exactly what some others do”.
Something for sure is regressing, but for sure it’s not Laine’s skating. I would say the regressing thing is the understanding of basic training areas. I’m shocked how bad understanding some people have here about some very basic things related to skating and training.
 

Tommigun

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Jan 5, 2018
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Just maybe to add something (perhaps relevant, perhaps not) to this discussion, here are Rautala's trainees from over the years listed on their website:




Combined achievements:

45 gold medals (FEL)
3 gold medals (WHC)
3 gold medals (U-20)
4 gold medals (SHL)

27 silver medals (FEL)
27 silver medals (WHC)
5 silver medals (Olympics)
6 Silver medals (World Cup)

14 bronze medals (FEL)
7 bronze medals (WHC)
17 bronze medals (Olympics)
3 bronze medals (U-20)

3 Calder Cups
1 Stanley Cup


The Rautala training group is a father & son enterprise, so it's not just one guy.

Far be it from me to assess if what they are doing right and wrong but I would be damn sure I know what I'm talking about before starting to criticize these guys.

Aki-Petteri Berg, Sami Salo, Lauri Korpikoski... what a motley crew. And one Stanley Cup combined.

I didn’t ask for a list of past clients but of examples where after an athlete joined Rautala’s gym he showed clear improvement.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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Just maybe to add something (perhaps relevant, perhaps not) to this discussion, here are Rautala's trainees from over the years listed on their website:




Combined achievements:

45 gold medals (FEL)
3 gold medals (WHC)
3 gold medals (U-20)
4 gold medals (SHL)

27 silver medals (FEL)
27 silver medals (WHC)
5 silver medals (Olympics)
6 Silver medals (World Cup)

14 bronze medals (FEL)
7 bronze medals (WHC)
17 bronze medals (Olympics)
3 bronze medals (U-20)

3 Calder Cups
1 Stanley Cup


The Rautala training group is a father & son enterprise, so it's not just one guy.

Far be it from me to assess if what they are doing right and wrong but I would be damn sure I know what I'm talking about before starting to criticize these guys.
That list of accomplishments is meaningless, since you can't ascribe team success to the training of individuals. Also, a bunch of those players were promising as young players and then were big flops. Do we count those as failures, too? Unless we see better individual metrics that show that his trianees do better than those trained by other trainers, it means little. Seeing long posts about chefs and cooking also is not objective evidence. I'll be happy if Laine shows better skating and stamina this year, but it should also be compared to the improvement that other young players continue to make.
 

grieves

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Apr 27, 2016
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So let's see your coaching resumes. I'm just saying that these are not some morons Laine found in the woods.
 

Tommigun

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So let's see your coaching resumes. I'm just saying that these are not some morons Laine found in the woods.

So I take it as there not being any examples of an athlete upping their game since starting to train with Rautala then?
 

grieves

silent prayer
Apr 27, 2016
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Just to say again. I don't know whether what they are doing is right or wrong. Nor can I assess that from Laine either since he is not a finished product by a long shot, and they have said it is a long process that picks up every summer from where they have left off.

If someone is knowledgeable enough to criticize their work while they are in the middle of doing it, then it would be a service to everyone to know how you are able to do that.
 
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Whileee

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So let's see your coaching resumes. I'm just saying that these are not some morons Laine found in the woods.
I'm not a meteorologist but I can tell when they are wrong about the weather in my area.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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So you can 100% tell they are doing something wrong?
I could tell that Laine didn't improve his skating last year, and his fitness and stamina lagged. Maybe this training will turn out for the best, but what evidence can you point to that it's improving him so far? All I'm saying is that I've seen other young players appear to progress in skating and fitness using other trainers and methods. Until I see Laine showing similar improvements, I'll remain somewhat skeptical. If he shows great improvement this year or next, I'll be the first to praise Rautala and his training.
 

DRW204

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Dec 26, 2010
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I think we need before and after body transformation pictures of all of Rautala's clients to see his impact :sarcasm:
 

grieves

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Apr 27, 2016
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I could tell that Laine didn't improve his skating last year, and his fitness and stamina lagged. Maybe this training will turn out for the best, but what evidence can you point to that it's improving him so far? All I'm saying is that I've seen other young players appear to progress in skating and fitness using other trainers and methods. Until I see Laine showing similar improvements, I'll remain somewhat skeptical. If he shows great improvement this year or next, I'll be the first to praise Rautala and his training.

That's the thing, I can't say. Not many 18 year olds play in the NHL in the first place so I would have to factor in his natural growth into his body etc. I don't presume to even know all the variables here.

I get that you want results immediately here now, but that does not seem to be how things work.

But by all means, criticize away if you have valid criticisms.
 
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Ippenator

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Aki-Petteri Berg, Sami Salo, Lauri Korpikoski... what a motley crew. And one Stanley Cup combined.

I didn’t ask for a list of past clients but of examples where after an athlete joined Rautala’s gym he showed clear improvement.
You have been told those examples already many times, but you are so amazingly stubborn that whatever examples you are told, you just neglect them and ask for examples.

But for the last time, Rantanen and Ristolainen are the best examples of young players making great progress while training with Rautala. Rantanen took huge strides with his skating after training a few seasons with Rautala. Sami Salo also btw in his days developed a lot with his skating while training with Rautala, and he became a really good defenceman at the NHL level, so you dismissing him really shows your attitude here. Are you btw a North American or a Finn or what? Seems anyway that you are lacking also the understanding of how big the difference is with the masses that play hockey in Finland and in North America.

That list that was just presented by @grieves is in fact a very impressive list when you think of how small amount of hockey players Finland has compared to the giants like Canada and the USA. The fact that Finland can most of the the time really challenge and even often beat the North American countries even with so small masses to get our top players from tells also of how good the training and the coaching is over here. If you are a North American, then your approach is sadly arrogant and not understanding at all of the whole situation in hockey between North American countries and much smaller European countries.

And if you are a Finn or a European, you are still neglecting very meaningful facts and understanding of the complete situation. Also in that case you are blinded by the amount of North American talent that is most of all the product of so great amounts of players playing hockey that it is bound to happen that players like McDavid, Crosby, Lemieux or Gretzky can be born and found at some point at least. You are lost if you believe that these kind of players have developed because of North American training being somehow superior. No way Jose. I can definitely see that you could use some prepping in many basic things about the differences between North American and European hockey. Unfortunately it seems so that you are completely refusing to listen and learn anything.
 
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Howard Chuck

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I have no idea how you got that from my post

It sounded like you were saying that other players worked their asses off to get better but Laine doesn't. That he needs to "get the message", like he isn't doing what he's told by his team and his trainers.

If not, then my sarcasm was misdirected.
 

Howard Chuck

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We have to acknowledge that every human is different and needs different training to reach their peak. Even then, that peak is going to something different for every human. In the case of hockey players, not everyone is going to be able to skate circles around other players, or wow us with their speed. Not ever player will have incredible talent in their ability to shoot the puck, passing and scoring. Not every player will have great hockey IQ. Certainly very few if any, have all of these. It's a team sport and the idea is to put players together that compliment one another to accomplish the goal of being a great team. Laine at barely 20 has accomplished most of this already.

He may never be a great skater, not that I think he will stop trying to be one. But to compare him to more compact players at this age is silly. A more densely muscled, or shorter player is going to look (and probably actually be) much faster and agile on the ice than a skinny 6'5" kid.

Again, let's remember what bambi looked like out there until he was what, 23? It's just the way that some kids progress regarding strength and stability. Can anyone find an example of an 19 year old 6'5" kid that was a great skater in the NHL?

If Laine isn't a much better skater in 3 years, I'll join the disappointed. Until then I'll just realize that he's very young and tall and lanky. But he's also already a beast and has just turned 20.
 
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heilongjetsfan

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It was a lighthearted competition and hardly indicative of anything. Also it was a race against another person, not against the clock per se, McKinnon saw he’d lose and eased up.
So Laine only won because MacKinnon knew he would lose? So if MacKinnon didn't know he would lose, he'd have won?
 
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Tommigun

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So Laine only won because MacKinnon knew he would lose? So if MacKinnon didn't know he would lose, he'd have won?

Yes. Because it was a race against another person, not against the clock. He eased up when he saw he’d lose.

Also, all other participants were probably hung over like hell.

Look, it’s a playful competition not even against the clock with a sample size of 1. I’d advice you to stop using it because it’s such a silly argument.
 
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