International break and a bit of a slow down at work means it's to address some posts.
I think Barca's issues go beyond coaching. Valverde's done a fine job in the last 2 years, and you can argue 2 "off" games in two years bring his tenure from "nearly flawless" to "borderline questionable" (because winning La Liga twice isn't good enough in Barca, especially since he lucked into a Madrid squad who were at the end of their Ronaldo era).
But the problems go beyond that, IMO.
You can't bench Suarez. He's Messi's BFF and benching him is a no-no. He was magnificent a few years back, and while he still shows signs of how great he cane be, over the last 2 season it's been a struggle for him - especially in the CL.
They've alienated and shot up the confidence of Coutinho (gone now), Umtiti (vital player before his injury), Rakitic (absolutely a key player for 5 successful Barca years) and Dembele (still so young, so talented - yes, some issues, but deserved better than to be shoved into a potential Neymar trade).
IMO, the whole Neymar transfer saga (apparently mostly done to appease Messi) is costing them right now, guys like Rakitic and Umtiti deserved better, and it's showing on their team cohesiveness right now).
I have no idea how Umtiti went from a top-10 CB in the world (and was only getting better) to guy who never gets minutes in one year.
Rakitic is still in his prime (tail end of it, but still), and went from a guy who played like every single minute in 5 years to not getting even a minute in 2 games before the deadline when the board was trying to get him to agree to the PSG move (and when he eventually did, they didn't have the money to go with it).
IMO, a LOT of Barca's problems are masked by having the GOAT on the pitch.
Hopefully though, we still see prime (or near prime) Messi for a few years, so they got time to sort it out.
Every club's "issues" go beyond their manager. However in the case of Barça the biggest issue is very obviously the manager. The fact you can't see it is quite alarming considering you give multiple examples in this post alone demonstrating this even if you mistakenly lay the blame elsewhere. Anyway, winning La Liga twice isn't good enough because he should have at minimum won two doubles. "Lucking" into a Madrid squad who were at the end of their Ronaldo era, a laughable notion especially considering Ronaldo was with Madrid for 50% of the period being discussed, has nothing to do with it because we had the better side.
So you can't bench Suarez because according to you "he's Mess's BFF and benching him is a no-no". OK then, let's say Messi doesn't control the team selection (reality) as you suggest he does. So who should Suarez have been benched for? Alcacer? I don't care if Alcacer scores 100 goals for BVB this season. He simply wasn't good for us and no one with a clue about football would have started Alcacer over Suarez. Kevin Prince Boateng? Right, a player who shouldn't have been signed in the first place. Now one might argue there wasn't someone to bench Suarez for, something I would argue as it's true. That just leaves the problem of who the club should have signed to fill that void. Who in the transfer windows leading up to the last two seasons should have the club have signed who they could signed? Who could they have signed that would have come to the club and who should have started over Suarez? I can think of one player who were linked with assuming you believe that story. As for Suarez's "struggle", let's look at those two seasons:
- 46 goals and 18 assists in 66 matches in La Liga
- 8 goals and 3 assists in 8 starts in the Copa
- 2 goals and 6 assists in 20 CL matches
- Showed up in multiple big matches (multiple times against Madrid) including a hat-trick against Madrid in a 5-1 demolition whilst Messi was out injured
That's not to mention that Suarez was playing with injured knees, plural, pretty much all of last season probably the season prior. Suarez isn't the issue and Messi doesn't pick the team.
Coutinho? Seriously? So "they", being the club I assume, "alienated" Coutinho and "shot up his confidence"?
What a load of horse shit. The club that pursued Coutinho for months and months, who paid one of the highest transfer fees ever and who give him a pay rise even when he was going to be cup tied alienated him and shot up his confidence? The fact of the matter is that he was backed by the club longer than he should have been. The supporters also very openly backed him. Still if you look at his comments and more importantly his performances on the pitch he did very little to earn that support. And assuming he was alienated and his confidence was shot up, wouldn't that then fall on the manager who selects the team and dictates the tactics? Oh yeah, I forgot, Messi selects the team.
So Umtiti's form, a player you note as "vital player before his injury" is the club's fault? This is the player who the club wanted to get surgery to help with his injuries but who himself refused. This is also a player whose teammate is Lenglet who while Umtiti was out made the starting position his. More importantly though, this is a player whose manager was Valverde. So it's the club's fault and not Valverde's fault that he wasn't playing? Right. Oh wait, Messi probably didn't select him so it's got to be his fault.
And what about Rakitic? Yes, we know he's Croatian. Fact of the matter is that Rakitic played in 69 of 76 league matches in the last two seasons, starting 60 of them. So Rakitic played. Yes, he was in the shop window this Summer. Let's actually put that into context though. This is a player who a year after he signed a new deal was heavily rumored to be looking for a pay rise. This is also a player whose contract happens to be up in two years and who is currently 31 years old. This is also a player who has teammates named Frenkie de Jong, Arthur and Sergio Busquets, all of who should be starting ahead of him right now. Most important of all though considering what I'm replying to, this is a player whose manager is named Ernesto Valverde. So if he isn't playing then you know where to look. Oh yeah, Messi since he selects the team.
To say that Dembele was shoved into a Neymar trade is speculative. Plenty of stories over the Summer that said he had nothing to do with it. And even if he was it makes sense for a number of reasons. For starters, he's been injured a lot in his short time at the club. He's also had issues with training that have been well documented and that have even been noted by some of his senior teammates. This is also a player who surely holds high value still, especially to a PSG. So plenty of reasons why he'd be included in a potential deal. However there were multiple times in the news that both the club and the player didn't want him to leave. As for his time at Barça, there's another reason why he's struggled. Valverde. Valverde clearly hasn't selected him as much as he could and should have.
One thing you did get right though, Messi does mask some of the team's problems. Where you're wrong though, and we're talking very wrong, the biggest problem at the moment is Valverde. We could do a lot worse than him, but considering it's Barça we should be doing better.
Coutinho was signed as a semi-panic signing when it seemed the Madrid squad who had won two CLs in a row (and 3 in 4 years) would be running away with everything - including hammering Barca in the Super Cup.
It's as almost no thought was given WHERE he would play and how he would fit tactically.
He's best used a nr. 10 in a team that has Messi - it was never gonna work.
Umtiti has had injury issues, but he's certainly young enough and accomplished enough to be given more chances than now.
Or offered around for transfter.
Rakitic is 31, not 35, still in his prime (speed was never his thing to begin with), still a world class midfielder, and certainly didn't go from irreplacable to not being given minutes at all for two games straight.
It was obvious that it was a message to him to accept the PSG deal so Barca got Neymar back.
It was poorly done from Barca, and surely influenced how players view their board (and perhaps management) in how their treat players.
He will either recover to start for Barca again, or start for another super club soon (Juve or PSG probably).
Dembele was also offered to PSG. And he also declined.
Combine that with some difficulty with managing when you have Messi (can't bench his BFF, for starters), and you can see where the problems are if they want to compete with City, Liverpool, etc.
All 4 were pushed by the board (and Demeble apparently by Valverde) to join PSG so they can get Neymar.
It's poor judgement, and could backfire with team atmosphere. It's a very delicate thing, team cohesion, and it's part of the reason why Klopp's Liverpool is so good right now - by the looks of it, if he benched Salah, no issues would be raised and everyone would keep chugging along.
The lack of trust between players and staff, players and players, lack of support, players quick to blame one another - these things mean so much, football is more than FIFA ratings.
Right now, Barca is low on that bar - they certainly got the talent to win everything on the pitch, but they need a lot of work with everything else.
Coutinho was a panic signing? It took how many months to sign him and the club was well linked with him before the Super Cup. On top of that he didn't join until after we won the Clasico 3-0. Coutinho was a stupid signing, but he wasn't a panic signing. As for where he'd play and how he'd fit in, it's clear Valverde couldn't get enough out of him, the same Valverde who played him in the same position over and over again which is the definition of insanity.
So Umtiti should be given more chances despite injury problems, his own unwillingness to be treated the way the club wanted him to be treated and with a CB who deputized for him largely playing consistently well? Either way, Valverde isn't selecting him.
LOL. Perhaps it was a message of "we're not going to risk you in case we make a deal with PSG". Or perhaps it was a message of "we now also have these other players who we prefer at the moment". That's not to mention preseason. As for the transfer saga, it's a two-way street, but the club is well within it's right to sell a player the see as surplus to requirements. You can point the finger at whoever you want, but I'd say Valverde and Abidal are the first two guys you should question. None of that is to mention the player's ambition if it's so clear he's not going to be as considered going forward.
Again, somewhat speculative that Dembele was offered and either way I covered it. I'll just add that if you're not playing as regularly as you could be and if you've been offered to another club then, a means to probably reverse that, then what is your ambition?
The difficulty managing when you have Messi? Where was this bullshit sort of commentary when Ronaldo was at Madrid?
Again, to say that all four were pushed by the board is speculative at best and lacks a lot of context. As for the team cohesion, pray tell what examples you have of that being an issue. Being the Madridista you are you should know all about a lack of team cohesion. Anyway, share the examples you have. The players have been supportive of the staff, especially Valverde. The players clearly trust one another as has been evident for years. They're also clearly not blaming each other.
In what? Domestic titles? Juve and Bayern have more.
Champions League? They don't get close to Madrid. Not if you value the titles themselves (duh), not if you value consistency (Madrid had 8 straights semis).
So,... No.
You're arguing that a team that won 2 CL titles in 10 years and made the semi a couple more times was CLEARLY above a team that won the CL 4 times and made the semis 8 consecutive times?
That's almost funny.
When it comes to measuring historic greatness, CL is more important than anything else.
It's the ONLY best-on-best competition, history remembers it most of all, and domestic trophies pale in comparison.
Doesn't take anything away from teams winning domestic leagues - but in the end, Barca's team makeup has been set up so they destroy lesser teams with more consistency while have a shot vs top teams - while RM was custom made for big games and big matches. Less consistency vs inferior opposition, but dominant in big matches (as proven by the 4 CLs).
There's a reason why everyone and their mum can remember the Milan teams of the late 80s/early 90s, the Ajax and Bayern teams of the 70s etc...
Yet at the same time, Borrusia Monchengladbach were absolutely amazing in the 70s, and noone knows about them - they never won the European Cup.
Real Madrid in the second half of the 80s was ridiculously dominant, won 5 La Ligas in a row, and were probably the best team in Europe - except they never won the EC, so barely anyone remembers it.
Since 2014, it was Madrid's era, what they did was historic and hadn't been done in 50 years.
CL is the most important competition, period. There's a reason why the superclubs consider their season a borderline failure if they lose out in the CL.
This season, as it looks right now, City and Liverpool are ahead of everyone else. But if they don't win the CL, in 5 years time noone will remember how good they looked.
I think the entire debate is pointless, and I'm sure some people with agree with one view or the other, but I'm completely baffled by anyone - even a diehard Messi fan - thinking the Barca was CLEARLY above everyone else in the last 10 years (especially last 8 or so), when they won only 2 CLs and RM won 4 in the meantime.
Dear Lord. For starters, while that is an arbitrary figure, just like arbitrarily using 2014-19 as you hypocritically did in your reply. More to the point though, in the period he mentions he's absolutely correct. The difference in CL titles in the period he's referencing, 2 though I suspect he was including 08-09, doesn't give Madrid the edge when you consider the league and cup titles. Additionally, making the Semis isn't a win. That's not almost funny, that's hilarious.
To further put this into context, Madrid face Barça once in winning one of those CLs. Conversely Barça knocked Madrid out in of their two CL wins on top of dominating Madrid domestically during that period. I won't even bother with that team makeup bullshit.
What people remember and don't remember? Some people will remember Trump as a great President. I won't be one of them.
Since 2014 Madrid, who play in the same league and cup as Barça, have won 1 league and 1 cup. Barça meanwhile have won 4 leagues and 4 cups.
CL is the most important competition, but winning your domestic league and better yet doing a domestic double is still a big deal.
This entire debate is pointless and not even baffled by what your write anymore.
Can't be arsed to argue, just giving you how I see things.
My point stands, Madrid marked the era with a historic feat, something not done in 50 years in the ONLY best-on-best competition.
While I do think their reign over Europe was fascinating, it still stands they won only 2 La Ligas in 10 years.
But the thing is... Not that it doesn't matter (it does), just that CL is worth so, so much more.
Like it or not, most of the prestige comes from winning the CL (including Ballon d'Or voting).
And Madrid, undoubtedly, defined the competition. In the last 6 years as much as in history since it was formed.
However, I will say that the last decade is a pretty arbitrary thing to define things.
Messi's Barca was the best team up until 2014 for half a decade, then I'd say Ronaldo's Madrid ruled Europe for half a decade.
Perfectly balanced, among those two, so people can argue on the internet who is better or more talented or more efficient or more clutch, etc.
Now though, I think City and Liverpool are ahead of them both. And both clubs have some serious work to do.
Madrid are in a bigger hole, but they're on the way of adjusting to life without the 2nd best player ever.
Barca is still to get there, life without Messi, and they really should aim to have plan B and C in their game and their lineup, or they'll be in a bigger hole than Madrid is now.
Your opinion stands, not your point.
As for the "since it was formed nonsense", that's because Franco's appointee stepped into the Di Stefano transfer. Actually that covers the whole history really.
Again, laughable hypocrisy with the arbitrary bit considering your "since 2014" line. Not to mention 2014 being marked only by Madrid's exploits in Europe when the other club in question won 66% of each of the domestic titles they both compete in (albeit they don't always meet in the Copa) vs only 16% having been won by Madrid.
Again, I think "decade" is a pretty arbitrary thing to define it.
In the last 8 years, since the Pep years - when they clearly were head and shoulders above anyone else, their results in the CL (again, the ONLY best-on-best competition, where you can't win a title by being inferior teams more consistently, you need to have a higher peak):
1 Win
3 Semis
4 Quarters
I'm sorry, but that's not the record of a team that's "CLEARLY above everyone else" in an era.
Not for me anyway.
I will say their record in the CL in the last 10 years is CLEARLY second best to Madrid. Both in titles and consistency.
But Madrid have the negative of only 2 La Liga wins in the last 10 years.
(total trophy count is closer because of all the Supercups and Cups which IMO are almost irrelevant in the big picture)
So, depends how you look at it.
I think it's silly to say either team has CLEARLY been this and that, "not even close" and all that internet jazz.
It's debatable. But Barca's CL record for a team of their quality and having a Leo Messi on it leaves a lot to be desired in the last 8 years.
Again with the arbitrary hypocrisy, but hey, let's look at only the last 8 years...
And if you're going to call out
@Duchene2MacKinnon for his timeline accuracy, it's been 7 seasons since Pep left.
As for the "best-on-best" nonsense, you aren't always facing the best depending on the draw and Madrid didn't face Barça once in any of those wins.
Yeah, not for you anyway. You being the person who completely either ignores or writes off league titles.
And Madrid's league and cup record for a team as good as you've anointed them to be leaves a lot to be desired in the last 8 years.
