Rumor: Kyle on 590..we can and we will sign 34 16 29

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
i suppose, for the following.
1: i don't think i like the philosophy of "Pittsburgh won with meh D" which is what I feel a lot of people (not saying you) tend to fall back on. this doesn't mean i think we need to hunt for the second coming of Pronger, and MacInnis either but still.

2: That's the bottom pair. I'd like to shore up the top four.

3: I personally would feel a lot better if we had some defensemen who were smart, can take hits, and was more defensive minded. (this doesn't mean a Polak-esque type, but not. a Rielly/Gardiner type) this is an issue. (for me)

4: I don't feel (and I could be wrong and i'll totally own it) that a good chunk of what we have is actually a clear cut #1 defenseman in the mix. Again. Maybe Lilly is the exception (and I feel a lot of people base this on points. and you know, i'll acknowledge maybe my beliefs are a bit dated but I feel the way I feel just like i respect the way others view things)

5: I think there is a thin line between being in love with what you have and wanting to toss everything overboard (and hey i tap-dance on it so lol i own it), as well as being patient and doing nothing. I don't want to sit here several years from now and go "gee. you know. if we really only did this, then you know." because we've done that already. There's a need. and I just feel a good chunk of people want to close their eyes to that need because either A: Pittsburgh/Washington won with medicore defensemen, or B: we can't touch anyone else. and that just doesn't sit well with me at all.

and yes that is acknowledging that the team defense is also an issue and it should be better, and some of it is also time. to which is why I would rather the leafs get the defenseman they need now that fits into the age of the group we're really going to depend on (Nylander, Marner and Matthews for the 8+++) and let that guy merge and gel and all that jazz vs. getting say 5 years (thus kadri is up and we have to deal with it) we still don't have that guy and we're not really accomplishing anything.
Somewhere along the line I think you've misunderstood me, Daisy. It seems like you're addressing other peoples' arguments as a way to defend your feelings, as opposed to truly addressing what I'm saying in my own posts.

Not only did I never mention anything about Pittsburgh's D, I've maintained all along that I believe our blueline will be a legitimate strength for us within only a couple of years. We already had/have a "Pittsburgh D" last year and (so far) this year, capable, I think, of getting the job done behind our insane offense and in front of Andersen - But between the remaining development of our current defensemen (Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott, Carrick), a re-signed Gardiner (or his right-shooting counterpart), the potential of a blue-chipper like Liljegren in the system and solid prospects like Sandin, Durzi, Rasanen, Kral, Gordeev, to go along with our bevy of depth, I think we already have the pieces in place to build an excellent blueline.

While I referenced Rosen, Borgman, Carrick, Holl and Ozhiganov as depth for the bottom pair, I was talking specifically about this year, and that was only a small portion of that point. Depth is important - as parity becomes a bigger and bigger thing and the game continues to evolve in the cap era, we're seeing 4th-line and 3rd-pairing depth become a prominent factor in deciding some games - but beyond that, prospects like Liljegren, Sandin and Durzi all have (at least) top-4 potential, with Liljegren having legitimate top-pair potential, and Rielly, Gardiner (or his return), Dermott, Zaitsev, and Hainsey are all currently real top-4 defensemen, with half of them having the potential to continue improving. It's not just our bottom pair that's in solid shape moving forward.

As I mentioned before, Liljegren possesses every single quality that you're looking for in a defenseman, and our entire blueline is being structured around smarts, skating, and skill - this shouldn't be a concern for anyone, as every target of Dubas (whether through draft, trade, or free agency) will almost assuredly be lauded for their intelligence and their ability to move the puck. The NHL has been evolving for the past several years and Dubas is our first GM in the cap era to truly seem to have his finger on the pulse of the League - I believe with our management's vision for drafting and development, within 5 years we'll be essentially a factory of new-age defensemen, just like Nashville used to be.

Rielly and Liljegren have clear-cut #1 potential. If, after everything I've said in my posts about Liljegren's abilities, you still think that that statement or belief comes from a place of simple point-watching, then frankly I'm a little offended.

I think there are huge gaps between loving what you have and wanting to throw everything overboard, as well as between being patient and doing nothing.
- Firstly, I think Dubas does love what he has - I think he's put several years into trying to help this organization grow, it's now his ship to sail, and he has a great affinity for, and trust and faith in, his players and his staff, and that's a big part of him creating a comfortable, positive environment that helps create long-term organizational health and growth. While it's important to understand how all of the pieces are fitting in your puzzle, and you need to be able to swap out the pieces that don't fit right for pieces that do, I think it's equally important to love and respect what you already have in place. I have great respect for people like Kyle Dubas and Paul Maurice who unabashedly love their players and staff. That love does not mean that they are unable to make smart, calculated moves for the betterment of their team.
- Secondly, being patient and doing nothing are very, very, wildly different things. Our scouting and development programs are always working to improve our players, both organizationally and on the Leafs main roster, and are always looking for new players to bring into the fold whether it be through the draft, through free agency, or through trade. Having an ideal method of acquiring those players, based on sensible acquisition costs, is a key part of making sure you don't overpay when bringing in new talent, and a big part of making sure you can achieve sustainable success, rather than just a flash in the pan.
I have never disagreed that we need to improve as far as our team D goes. But just because I'm willing to be patient as far as adding current NHL players goes doesn't mean I think we're not willing to do anything at all. What we have control over is our developmental and systemic approach to the game, and I think these are always being worked on - Through NHL-level development, further buy-in from our forward group, and a much stronger offense, I think we'll already see huge strides in our team D this year, and, as I already mentioned, there is help on the way in our pipeline. And then we have Jake Gardiner, who either needs to be re-signed and considered part of our core moving forward, or should be traded to try and help balance our D a little bit - If you can get a guy like Braun/Myers/Spurgeon for him, I think our D looks awesome next year. There are tons and tons of ways for teams to improve while also being patient.

If, in 3-4 years' time, we are in a position where we either need to re-sign Kadri or move on from him, and his contract demands don't appear to be able to work under our cap structure, then I think you can take a look at trading him to try and fill a need. But why anyone would look at moving him right now - with the center depth we have with him (and the center depth we'd have without him), with the contract he has, and with the attributes and stats he has - as a first option to try and fill a hole (that, again, is not even that deep) will forever be beyond me.

If you want to be competitive now - if you're worried that we're set up for 5 years of non-contention now - then trading Kadri for a top-4 D still doesn't make sense because it's a sideways move, because we don't have anything in place to replace Kadri. If you're not comfortable with what we have, then what we need to do is add, not simply shift. Like I said before, not a single one of Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Marleau, Rielly, Liljegren, Dermott, Gardiner, Zaitsev, or Andersen were acquired by trading away a Nazem Kadri-caliber player - Obviously adding quality is possible without stripping away important pieces from your current roster, so unless a player is redundant, or not in our long-term plans, trading them away to try and fill a hole is just opening up another hole and not adding anything at all. There is no reason to believe that Kadri is either redundant or not in our long-term plans, but there is every reason to believe we would miss him terribly as soon as he was gone.

Keep Kadri. Keep Nylander. The need at D is overblown. We are fine now. We will be excellent soon.
 
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Walshy7

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Sep 18, 2016
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How will we get rid of Marleau next offseason?

if he scores ~25 goals again this season im not sure it will be difficult, last 3 season he has 25,27&27 its pretty likely he gets to 20. It wont be nearly as difficult as made out to be. We wont be getting a awesome return but it wont be too hard
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Somewhere along the line I think you've misunderstood me, Daisy. It seems like you're addressing other peoples' arguments as a way to defend your feelings, as opposed to truly addressing what I'm saying in my own posts.

Sorry. I didn't mean to :)


Keep Kadri. Keep Nylander. The need at D is overblown. We are fine now. We will be excellent soon.

but ultimately we're going to have to just agree to disagree, because I truly i don't think it's overblown. our right side is not very good. and to be blunt I don't want it to be be like it was before where "all we need is just a few pieces" for Mats etc. to put us over the top but Quinn never could get the deal done but this time it's "all we need is some defense." but maybe it will kick in. Or for a another very relevant example, I don't want to sit here 12 years from now, still wondering what more we have to do like Washington did until it finally comes together.

but i hope you are right. I never have a problem admitting i'm wrong or being emotional or whatever. but it just isn't sitting well with me, either.
 

dimi78

Registered User
Aug 9, 2008
4,348
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For every game Freddy won that series he lost one as well.

He was average.
He wasn't sharp in the 3rd period of game 7. That was about it of average play from him.

Lot's of extreme talk on the play of individual players. Gardiner wasn't bad defensively at all in the playoffs even game 7 that was a bad game for him. Game 7 it was his passing that was poor not his defensive game.

Frankly it was 2 players that didn't show up for playoff hockey. 1 expected in JVR who hasn't competed since Babcock became coach the other unexpected with Matthews + Kadri suspended for 3 games the team still found it's self in game 7 with a 1 goal lead heading into the 3rd period. You don't get to that point if the goaltending wasn't good or the performances of the group was anywhere near as bad as people spout and that's a fact.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
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Toronto
Sorry. I didn't mean to :)




but ultimately we're going to have to just agree to disagree, because I truly i don't think it's overblown. our right side is not very good. and to be blunt I don't want it to be be like it was before where "all we need is just a few pieces" for Mats etc. to put us over the top but Quinn never could get the deal done but this time it's "all we need is some defense." but maybe it will kick in. Or for a another very relevant example, I don't want to sit here 12 years from now, still wondering what more we have to do like Washington did until it finally comes together.

but i hope you are right. I never have a problem admitting i'm wrong or being emotional or whatever. but it just isn't sitting well with me, either.
But why is Kadri the go-to option to get that help? That's the part that doesn't make any sense, not wanting some help in the first place. The need for help on D is overblown, but not non-existent.

Again, if we can use Gardiner - who, unlike Kadri, needs to be dealt with this year, one way or another - as a main piece for a Spurgeon/Braun/Myers-type defenseman, why wouldn't you do that first?

Rielly - Spurgeon/Braun/Myers
Hainsey - Zaitsev
Dermott - Carrick

is a Stanley Cup-caliber D in 2019 when it's playing behind a forward corp that boasts Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Marleau, Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown and Hyman, and in front of Frederik Andersen.

In a couple years, when all of our players are in their prime, we start injecting guys like Liljegren, Sandin, Durzi, Rasanen and Kral into the mix, and suddenly it's not just Stanley Cup-caliber, but it's a real, legitimate strength.

There's really not a lot of faith required to see this all come together beautifully.
 

pylon17

Registered User
Jan 19, 2017
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if he scores ~25 goals again this season im not sure it will be difficult, last 3 season he has 25,27&27 its pretty likely he gets to 20. It wont be nearly as difficult as made out to be. We wont be getting a awesome return but it wont be too hard

NTC?
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
9,189
But why is Kadri the go-to option to get that help? That's the part that doesn't make any sense, not wanting some help in the first place. The need for help on D is overblown, but not non-existent.

Again, if we can use Gardiner - who, unlike Kadri, needs to be dealt with this year, one way or another - as a main piece for a Spurgeon/Braun/Myers-type defenseman, why wouldn't you do that first?

i have said that. several times. like i am an equal opportunity, trade them kind of girl.
if we move Jake, fine.
for me, esp. since Kadri has term, you get better pieces. that's fine with me too.
then you move Nylander to the third slot, train him up to be a centre, Tavares has the ability to make 30g wingers (see all of his wingers) so to me it's not like oh now we're not deep. it's oh. we have another hole. i don't see the hole.


In a couple years, when all of our players are in their prime, we start injecting guys like Liljegren, Sandin, Durzi, Rasanen and Kral into the mix, and suddenly it's not just Stanley Cup-caliber, but it's a real, legitimate strength.

There's really not a lot of faith required to see this all come together beautifully.

like i said. i hope so. we'll have to see, i guess esp. if Dubas doesn't do anything.
i will be very happy to ask for my crow.
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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How is that worse? You think we’d send him down? If we aren’t trading him he is playing for the leafs
its worse because him and his contract really can't be moved when it would be beneficial for the leafs cap wise
 

FlareKnight

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Jun 26, 2006
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In terms of the blueline it may take a more patient route to be where we'd ideally like it to be. The left especially for this year is good. Not going to improve much on Rielly/Gardiner/Dermott. If Zaitsev can bounce from the illnesses, injuries and just come to camp at 100% then he should be fine as a second pairing option. No shortage of bottom pairing guys in general with Rosen, Borgman, Holl, Carrick, Marincin, etc. The top spot is an issue, but that really might have to be a wait and see thing. You got one more year with Hainsey. At that point you'll have to ask someone to play up a bit and should see Liljigren make the jump

Honestly I think it's one spot on the blueline that is miscast with Hainsey. Maybe two if Zaitsev can't be a second pair guy. Is that a major crisis or such a critical weakness that we can't accomplish anything? I don't know. Don't believe so, but I'm hardly some hockey guru. I wouldn't move Kadri to try and resolve it. You need that kind of unbelievably bargain contract he's got right now on the third line. You could move him and transition Nylander to the middle. But then you are paying your third line center over 6 million per year (can't see him getting under that) rather than 4.5. One of those options lets you have more talent on your top 2 lines on the wing and the other makes you stretch it out. Just because guys can elevate lesser wingers doesn't mean you should rely on that.

We'll see what happens. Doubtful the Leafs aren't trying to improve the blueline, but has to make sense. And might not be a bad thing to say "we've got these guys in the system, why not give them a crack at it?"
 
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Terrible GM

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Jul 10, 2013
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Remember 1989 when Leafs racked up 337 goals for ?

Gary Leeman........................ 80 games 51-44-95 points ---> Matthews
Vincent Damphousse ... 80 games 33-61-94 points ---> Tavares
Ed Olczyk ............................... 79 games 32-56-88 points ---> Marner
Daniel Marois ...................... 68 games 39-37-76 points ---> Nylander
Mark Osborne .................... 78 games 23-50-73 points ---> Marleau

Al Iafrate ............................... 75 games 21-42-63 points ---> Rielly
Tom Kurvers ....................... 70 games 15-37-52 points ---> Gardiner
Rob Ramage ...................... 80 games 8-41-49 points ---> Zaitsev

Looks like history repeating itself where the new names and point totals will be Auston, Johnny, Mitch and Willie and Morgan, Jake and Nikita.

The bad news is they gave up 358 goals against the 3 worst in the NHL and got blown away in round #1 of the playoffs. Hopefully that history portion isn't also repeating.

It was a free for all on both ends, but my god was it glorious to watch all those goals being scored night after night. Difference now is our worst forward would play better defense than any player listed above from the 80's.
 

Walshy7

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Sep 18, 2016
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its worse because him and his contract really can't be moved when it would be beneficial for the leafs cap wise

After July 1 next offseason his salary is like $1.5m that’s tradeable especially for teams that need the cap got hit don’t have the money to pay it fully, Arizona for example Florida also comes to mind
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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After July 1 next offseason his salary is like $1.5m that’s tradeable especially for teams that need the cap got hit don’t have the money to pay it fully, Arizona for example Florida also comes to mind
As I said earlier he has a nmc. That will make it harder to trade him, if possible. It's unlikely he waives to go from a contender to another team, unless that other team is a contender that has an equal for better chance of winning the cup.
 

Walshy7

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Sep 18, 2016
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As I said earlier he has a nmc. That will make it harder to trade him, if possible. It's unlikely he waives to go from a contender to another team, unless that other team is a contender that has an equal for better chance of winning the cup.

It will not make it harder than if he had a ntc. A nmc is basically a ntc with a clause for not being demoted. If he had a ntc it really wouldn’t matter if he had a nmc or not.
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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It will not make it harder than if he had a ntc. A nmc is basically a ntc with a clause for not being demoted. If he had a ntc it really wouldn’t matter if he had a nmc or not.
It will still be nearly impossible to trade him. That's the issue.
 

Man Bear Pig

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Aug 10, 2008
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As I said earlier he has a nmc. That will make it harder to trade him, if possible. It's unlikely he waives to go from a contender to another team, unless that other team is a contender that has an equal for better chance of winning the cup.
The NMC is pretty irrelevant here. No team was going to bury him. Its the NTC that complicates things.
 
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34

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Mar 26, 2010
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What is taking so long to sign Nylander. Get it done already!
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
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What is taking so long to sign Nylander. Get it done already!
Dubas explained that in the article that this thread is based on:

“I always think that when a player is going to make a commitment of any length, particularly when they’re signing up long-term, that we need to sit with the player and make sure that they player knows where we’re going as a program and what our vision and our plans are so those are discussions that I’ll have with each of the individual players that are due extensions here or are due contracts for next season,” Dubas told Marek and Friedman. “It might go a little bit slower than some people would like but that would be on me to continue to be patient with it and make sure that these guys are not just signing because it’s a long-term contract and it’s obviously a nice pay increase for them, but they want to be here as part of the long-term, they know where we’re going and they’re a full part of that rather than sign a deal and then a year later wonder what the vision is for the program and whether they want to be part of it.
“We’ll be very patient,” he continued. “I wouldn’t expect anything imminent — at least, I don’t think that today as I speak with you guys — on any of the three, but we’ll just start to work towards them and all three of them will be a big part of it as we move ahead.”
 
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Mats13

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Apr 22, 2015
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The main boards are full of such vile Leaf hatred.

I hope all 3 take discounts just so we can watch the salt intensify.
 
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