Player Discussion: Kristian Vesalainen [Update: Signed ELC]

[Hunter368]

I’ve liked what I’ve seen so far

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Loved his willingness and the fact that after he got really pasted he remained undeterred. In saying that he will need to improve his technique around absorbing contact in those board battles. I love that he is big, physical, fast, and goes into the dirty areas. Lots of scoring happens in that zone if you have the nutsack and KV seems willing to pay the price.

He might be the perfect winger to pair with Laine down the road, if he continues to show strong in those areas.

They could make a perfect pair, we can label them The Finnishers.

 

[Ares]

He might be the perfect winger to pair with Laine down the road, if he continues to show strong in those areas.

They could make a perfect pair, we can label them The Finnishers.

Or The Two Towers

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Or The Two Towers

I prefer their label pay homage to their lazer accurate shots, than their size, along with having their home country worked into it.

 

[Ares]

I prefer their label pay homage to their lazer accurate shots, than their size, along with having their home country worked into it.

Yeah but considering Ves has yet to score a goal in pre-season let alone regular season I think that nickname might be premature.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Yeah but considering Ves has yet to score a goal in pre-season let alone regular season I think that nickname might be premature.

I said down the road, didnt I?

 

[CorgisPer60]

Don't see him making the team out of camp personally. Even if he did, I doubt even more he would see PP time. I think we see him with the Jets at some point this year, still doubt the PP though.

That's if he doesn't exercise his Euro clause for this year, which I personally won't mind. I'd rather he stay in NA to learn/adapt to the NA style of game, but it's not the worst thing if he heads back home for the season.

 

[CanWin]

I am not overly impressed by Vesalainen so far. He has not embarrassed himself, but neither has he done anything that says he would be an improvement over whatever team we put on the ice without him. I agree that he should stay in North America to work on the North American game, but as far as I am concerned, he should learn it in the AHL. I hope we don't waste ten games on him at this level.

 

[Lempo]

That's if he doesn't exercise his Euro clause for this year, which I personally won't mind. I'd rather he stay in NA to learn/adapt to the NA style of game, but it's not the worst thing if he heads back home for the season.

The Euro clause is only good for the duration of the Loan to lesser league. If he's called up to Jets, he's obligated to show up and serve his ELC whether he's in Moose or Jokerit in the meanwhile. Practicalities obviously bar a short-term call-up from Europe.

But, his contract structure hints strongly of a planned AHL year with 10+ games in Jets at some point so I don't expect the Euro clause being used.

 

[sipowicz]

I am not overly impressed by Vesalainen so far. He has not embarrassed himself, but neither has he done anything that says he would be an improvement over whatever team we put on the ice without him. I agree that he should stay in North America to work on the North American game, but as far as I am concerned, he should learn it in the AHL. I hope we don't waste ten games on him at this level.

#24 pick in the first round isn’t always a sure thing!

 

[YWGinYYZ]

#24 pick in the first round isn’t always a sure thing!

I see you're in pre-season training, sip.

 

[KingBogo]

The Euro clause is only good for the duration of the Loan to lesser league. If he's called up to Jets, he's obligated to show up and serve his ELC whether he's in Moose or Jokerit in the meanwhile. Practicalities obviously bar a short-term call-up from Europe.

But, his contract structure hints strongly of a planned AHL year with 10+ games in Jets at some point so I don't expect the Euro clause being used.

You'll have to explain this again as I think the Jets are okay with him going back to Europe for a season and letting the ELC slide if he isn't ready yet.

 

[Lempo]

You'll have to explain this again as I think the Jets are okay with him going back to Europe for a season and letting the ELC slide if he isn't ready yet.

If KVes was expecting that his ELC is going to Slide, he would have demanded Performance Bonuses for year 1 too (which season would be 2019-20 in that case). He would've gotten them if he did, and would be good enough to earn at least some of them for reals too in 19-20.

But it was a lengthy negotiation process, and he didn't get (=demand) bonuses for year one. So in all likeliness what he got was a guarantee that he gets to burn year 1 off his ELC iin 2018-19, and both parties are in understanding that he'll do it mostly in AHL but needs to play 10+ games in NHL for that to happen. Kves isn't going to meet the bonus criteria playing mostly in AHL anyway, and the Jets at least save the $850k cap hit from one year's bonuses in the AAV.

The teams apparently are less worried of burning an ELC year than fans, as long as the kid doesn't play so much (~40 games), that it counts against the 7 year limit after which the player becomes UFA.

 

[KingBogo]

If KVes was expecting that his ELC is going to Slide, he would have demanded Performance Bonuses for year 1 too (which season would be 2019-20 in that case). He would've gotten them if he did, and would be good enough to earn at least some of them for reals too in 19-20.

But it was a lengthy negotiation process, and he didn't get (=demand) bonuses for year one. So in all likeliness what he got was a guarantee that he gets to burn year 1 off his ELC iin 2018-19, and both parties are in understanding that he'll do it mostly in AHL but needs to play 10+ games in NHL for that to happen. Kves isn't going to meet the bonus criteria playing mostly in AHL anyway, and the Jets at least save the $850k cap hit from one year's bonuses in the AAV.

The teams apparently are less worried of burning an ELC year than fans, as long as the kid doesn't play so much (~40 games), that it counts against the 7 year limit after which the player becomes UFA.

That is one way to interpret it. But it could also be a trade off for the Euro clause that the Jets wanted. That they are okay with KV playing in Europe as a 19 y/o, but are looking at the situation you describe as the desired circumstances for year 1 of the ELC in the 19-20 season. When the ELC would kick in no matter if he was playing in the NHL or AHL. Where it would still be unknown if KV was ready and they might still want him to play in the AHL for awhile to get acclimatized thereby limiting his opportunities at performance bonuses. This would limit his chances of year 1 bonus money if it was this season or next.

It is very possible IMO the Jets wanted to set up the same type of situation for KV that they would have for a CHL draft pick where they would be able to send a 19 y/o back for their final year of junior. KV's win was that he is more likely being an NHL regular in year 2 and year 3 of the ELC so the performance bonuses are stacked in those years.

 

[Lempo]

That is one way to interpret it. But it could also be a trade off for the Euro clause that the Jets wanted. That they are okay with KV playing in Europe as a 19 y/o, but are looking at the situation you describe as the desired circumstances for year 1 of the ELC in the 19-20 season. When the ELC would kick in no matter if he was playing in the NHL or AHL. Where it would still be unknown if KV was ready and they might still want him to play in the AHL for awhile to get acclimatized thereby limiting his opportunities at performance bonuses. This would limit his chances of year 1 bonus money if it was this season or next.

It is very possible IMO the Jets wanted to set up the same type of situation for KV that they would have for a CHL draft pick where they would be able to send a 19 y/o back for their final year of junior. KV's win was that he is more likely being an NHL regular in year 2 and year 3 of the ELC so the performance bonuses are stacked in those years.

This is not an impossible scenario at all, though from KVes' own talks I infer that he's planning to stay in NA and try make it to the Jets.

 

[IamherefortheFinn]

If he's called up to Jets, he's obligated to show up and serve his ELC whether he's in Moose or Jokerit in the meanwhile.

Is this really true? I thought that the situation with Tolvanen last year was so that he could not leave to the Predators before Jokerit terminated his contract after the season was over. My understanding was that it had something to do with that the NHL and KHL do not have some sort of transfer agreement or something. I was under the impression that if you sign up for a KHL team, you have to play the whole season there.

 

[Lempo]

Is this really true? I thought that the situation with Tolvanen last year was so that he could not leave to the Predators before Jokerit terminated his contract after the season was over. My understanding was that it had something to do with that the NHL and KHL do not have some sort of transfer agreement or something. I was under the impression that if you sign up for a KHL team, you have to play the whole season there.

Somewhat different situation, Tolvanen didn't have an NHL contract and couldn't sign one while under a KHL one.

Kves on the other hand is signed to the Jets as we speak and subject to the CBA where the European Assignment clause is defined. Whatever other arrangements he makes in case he evokes the clause for the duration of the Loan, they can't be in breach of his NHL ELC and everything that comes with it.

Unofficially Jets may obviously make it clear to him that they won't mess up his KHL assignment if he chooses to get one for 18-19.

 

[IamherefortheFinn]

Somewhat different situation, Tolvanen didn't have an NHL contract and couldn't sign one while under a KHL one.

Kves on the other hand is signed to the Jets as we speak and subject to the CBA where the European Assignment clause is defined. Whatever other arrangements he makes in case he evokes the clause for the duration of the Loan, they can't be in breach of his NHL ELC and everything that comes with it.

Unofficially Jets may obviously make it clear to him that they won't mess up his KHL assignment if he chooses to get one for 18-19.

ok

If there's a chance that he might be called to the Jets in between the KHL season, then i would not want him to play for Jokerit. I don't want the team to look like we are someones farm.

Obviously i hope that he makes it to the Jets roster from the beginning though as i watch basically all the Jets games too.

 

[mcpw]

ok

If there's a chance that he might be called to the Jets in between the KHL season, then i would not want him to play for Jokerit. I don't want the team to look like we are someones farm.

Obviously i hope that he makes it to the Jets roster from the beginning though as i watch basically all the Jets games too.

That can't happen. If a player is loaned to a non-AHL/ECHL team (i. e. Junior or European), the player can't be recalled before his team's season is over.

 

[Lempo]

That can't happen. If a player is loaned to a non-AHL/ECHL team (i. e. Junior or European), the player can't be recalled before his team's season is over.

This is a special case under the European Assignment clause of CBA 11.19:

11.19 Loan to Clubs Outside North America. The SPC of any Player may contain a clause that provides that, in the event his NHL Club Loans the Player to a club outside the NHL, during the period of such Loan, the Player shall have the option to be Loaned to a club of his choice outside North America. The clause may relieve the NHL Club of the obligation to pay the Player his Paragraph 1 Salary for the duration of such Loan if such relief is expressly stated in the provision, but the NHL Club shall otherwise be responsible for all other payments due to the Player by the NHL Club pursuant to his SPC. Such clause shall be subject to any applicable Player Transfer Agreement between the NHL and a hockey federation and/or the IIHF in effect, at the time of the Loan. The Player shall be permitted to make financial arrangements for compensation and other benefits with the club outside North America for the duration of the Loan, which financial compensation and benefits shall not be included in Averaged Club Salary, Actual Club Salary, League-wide Player Compensation or the Players' Share. The Club shall be required to provide to the NHL and the NHLPA in accordance with Exhibit 3 any loan agreement entered into in relation to such Loan by no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the day following the day the Club has received the executed loan agreement.

The team would Loan the player to AHL team, but the player that has the clause takes the option to go overseas on his own arrangements for the duration of the Loan. The team is not the organizing party of the Loan here.

edit: would you btw be thinking of this:

13.23 In the event a professional or former professional Player plays in a league outside North America after the start of the NHL Regular Season, other than on Loan from his Club, he may thereafter play in the NHL during that Playing Season (including Playoffs) only if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers. For the balance of the Playing Season, any such Player who has been obtained via Waivers may be Traded or Loaned only after again clearing Waivers or through Waiver claim. This section shall not apply to a Player on the Reserve List or Restricted Free Agent List of an NHL Club with whom the Player is signing an NHL SPC or is party to an existing SPC with such NHL Club.

 

[mcpw]

This is a special case under the European Assignment clause of CBA 11.19:



The team would Loan the player to AHL team, but the player that has the clause takes the option to go overseas on his own arrangements for the duration of the Loan. The team is not the organizing party of the Loan here.

"in the event his NHL Club Loans the Player to a club outside the NHL, during the period of such Loan, the Player shall have the option to be Loaned to a club of his choice outside North America."

The player is loaned to a club outside of North America, to a league not affiliated with the NHL, so Article 13 doesn't apply.

re: the edit - no, that's the Ryan O'Reilly Offer Sheet Debacle Clause. That's a different thing.

 

[Lempo]

"in the event his NHL Club Loans the Player to a club outside the NHL, during the period of such Loan, the Player shall have the option to be Loaned to a club of his choice outside North America."

The player is loaned to a club outside of North America, to a league not affiliated with the NHL, so Article 13 doesn't apply.

re: the edit - no, that's the Ryan O'Reilly Offer Sheet Debacle Clause. That's a different thing.

I can't find any other CBA clause that bars the return of Loaned player, but I'm not claiming there would be one. I know they couldn't sign Tolvanen before he was released from his KHL contract.

 

[mcpw]

I can't find any other CBA clause that bars the return of Loaned player, but I'm not claiming there would be one. I know they couldn't sign Tolvanen before he was released from his KHL contract.

Well, you have 13.12 which deals with in-season transfers from and to Minor Leagues, and 13.10 defines Minor League:

13.10 Recognition of Minor League. For purposes of this Agreement, except as expressly set
forth in Article 9, Minor League club shall only include any club in the American Hockey
League.

(that exception from Article 9 being the ECHL for players on ELCs)

In-season transfers to and from other leagues simply aren't a thing, the one exception being the European Assignment clause.

 

[Daximus]

Yeah if Veslainen heads to Europe on a loan that is is it until his club is done.

There is only one reason I don't like this idea. The Jets have zero control over how he develops. My biggest fear for him in the KHL is he signs somewhere and doesn't preform up to their expectation and is buried in a 4th line like role compared to playing 1st line/1st PP minutes on the Moose. The Jets will give him a hell of a lot more opportunity with the Moose then whatever KHL club he is on I guarantee you that. It could end up being a completely wasted year of development. Of course there is the chance he absolutely shines over there and kills it.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Yeah if Veslainen heads to Europe on a loan that is is it until his club is done.

There is only one reason I don't like this idea. The Jets have zero control over how he develops. My biggest fear for him in the KHL is he signs somewhere and doesn't preform up to their expectation and is buried in a 4th line like role compared to playing 1st line/1st PP minutes on the Moose. The Jets will give him a hell of a lot more opportunity with the Moose then whatever KHL club he is on I guarantee you that. It could end up being a completely wasted year of development. Of course there is the chance he absolutely shines over there and kills it.

If that happens, could the Jets not throw money at the problem and buy him out of his KHL agreement?