Confirmed with Link: Kosko Resigned - 3 years @4.5 with NTC

[The Nuge]

You don’t think it’s a problem starting in a 0-1 hole 60, 90 seconds into the game night after night? I think it’s a big problem. Especially for an offensively challenged bunch like the Oilers.

Whether it’s the 1st shot or the 2nd like Koskinen just allowed, it doesn’t really change anything.

I agree it has more to do with the team not being ready, but often giving up that first goal wakes the group up, so I’m not sure it’s as simple as blaming the struggles on giving up early goals.

He’s been the bigger disappointment this year, absolutely. But I’ll take last years Talbot over this years Koskinen in a heartbeat, despite the matching save percentages. Talbot is extremely technically sound, and FAST (seriously. watch the way he explodes when he pushes). He’s a treat to watch when he’s on. There’s a reason he was in the running for the Vezina. He’s a damn good goalie. Koskinen on the other hand is a very flawed goalie, largely because of how slow he is.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I agree partially here. But I dont think Talbots two great years here were a couple anomaly. He had 3 great years in NYR as a back up (but with a bigger workload than a regular back up). Continued those 3 years there with 2 great years here. The problem is, like you said, Oilers failed to improve the roster and Talbot got shell shocked with tons of shots and a massie, massive workload. They basically worked him to the limit, which messed him up physically and mentally. They did the same thing with Dubnyk, and will do the same thing with Kosk

Pretty much. Talbot wasn't always going to play at a Vezina level and the Oilers never really did anything about it.

 

[Stoneman89]

Whether it’s the 1st shot or the 2nd like Koskinen just allowed, it doesn’t really change anything.

I agree it has more to do with the team not being ready, but often giving up that first goal wakes the group up, so I’m not sure it’s as simple as blaming the struggles on giving up early goals.

He’s been the bigger disappointment this year, absolutely. But I’ll take last years Talbot over this years Koskinen in a heartbeat, despite the matching save percentages. Talbot is extremely technically sound, and FAST (seriously. watch the way he explodes when he pushes). He’s a treat to watch when he’s on. There’s a reason he was in the running for the Vezina. He’s a damn good goalie. Koskinen on the other hand is a very flawed goalie, largely because of how slow he is.

Agree with this except for the bolded. Unfotunately, at this point in time, this group is so fragile that they tend to crumble and fall when they get down. They need goaltending to keep them in the game until they can gain confidence. And they also need one that can make the big stops late in the game.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I've still got a lot more faith in Koskinen than Talbot, or any UFA goalie not named Bobrovsky in this years crop. They're not in a position to be spending assets bringing in a goalie via trade so Koskinen was and is the best avenue they had. The hope has to be that by the end of his contract one of Starett/Skinner/Wells/Rodrigue look like they can take the reigns.

It just means that you've succumbed to "New Girlfriend/Boyfriend is better" paradigm. This being a human trait that suggests we are biased to feelings of being "tired of" our current relationships/experiences. The new option perceived to be better because it contains no built up levels of "annoying behaviors" that we note with people we already know. This dynamic is pronounced in much human behavior. Politics and voting, stock selection, school selection, spouse selection, house selection, vehicle selection etc. Theres an assumption that new is better and increasing "trust" of the new thing.

There is no valid reason why somebody, having exhausted the technical proficiency, and form of both goalies would come to the conclusion that Koskinen is better. Or to have more "faith" in Koski.

Even last night Koski's awkward form and poor movement, substandard tracking and rebound control cost the Oilers about 3 goals. Koski didn't have a particularly hard work load in this one and with minutes left had faced only 21 shots.

In anycase objectively theres no other conclusion than Talbots peak NHL game > than Koskinens. Looking at Koski form, fundamentals, edges, positioning, rebound control and tracking its quite clear Talbot is better at all of this. We don't seem to love the ones we have.

 

[Aceboogie]

It just means that you've succumbed to "New Girlfriend/Boyfriend is better" paradigm. This being a human trait that suggests we are biased to feelings of being "tired of" our current relationships/experiences. The new option perceived to be better because it contains no built up levels of "annoying behaviors" that we note with people we already know. This dynamic is pronounced in much human behavior. Politics and voting, stock selection, school selection, spouse selection, house selection, vehicle selection etc. Theres an assumption that new is better and increasing "trust" of the new thing.

There is no valid reason why somebody, having exhausted the technical proficiency, and form of both goalies would come to the conclusion that Koskinen is better. Or to have more "faith" in Koski.

Even last night Koski's awkward form and poor moment, substandard tracking and rebound control cost the Oilers about 4 goals. Koski didn't have a particularly hard work load in this one and with minutes left had faced only 21 shots.

In anycase objectively theres no other conclusion than Talbots peak NHL game > than Koskinens. Looking at Koski form, fundamentals, edges, positioning, rebound control and tracking its quite clear Talbot is better at all of this. We don't seem to love the ones we have.

Couldnt like this comment enough, beautifully put. Agree 100%

Its the same cycle

1. Oilers acquire a highly touted player (Schultz, Talbot, etc). Oiler fans get pumped
2. At the same time, Oilers mgmt fails to build any sort of support or depth
3. Said player has a few good seasons early on, but the lack of depth eventually will crush them
4. Player gets crapped on, Oilers bring in another highly touted player (Kosk)
5. Rinse, wash, repeat

 

[Drivesaitl]

It was 13 last year alone I believe.

Yes, but its a specious stat. Its like describing and being concerned about noise in a sample. People quote this as if its wildly uncharacteristic. Basically goaltending by nature struggles with first shot. Goalies like to get a feel for the puck, its human to get more confident after the first save and there used to be a general thought that it was better if your goalie got a couple touches on the puck that were easy first instead of facing 5 bell scoring chances.

The Oilers almost invariably give up dangerous scoring chances early in games.

Even given all that Talbot played 67games last season, too much. On average a goalie will give up 1/10 shots. on that basis around 7 are going to be first shot goals just on average. On an Oilers club, starting the way the Oilers do, I would expect that number to be higher.

For instance can anybody say with a straight face Talbot should have stopped the 1st goal against Philly? How?

 

[guymez]

Couldnt like this comment enough, beautifully put. Agree 100%

Its the same cycle

1. Oilers acquire a highly touted player (Schultz, Talbot, etc). Oiler fans get pumped
2. At the same time, Oilers mgmt fails to build any sort of support or depth
3. Said player has a few good seasons early on, but the lack of depth eventually will crush them
4. Player gets crapped on, Oilers bring in another highly touted player (Kosk)
5. Rinse, wash, repeat

That is pretty much the recipe right there.
Its a recipe endorsed by many fans including a lot of posters on here.

The ultimate conclusion is to play a player above his ability to manage the game (which damagess the players confidence) and the root problem is a lack of depth that NEVER gets addressed.

 

[guymez]

Dp

 

[onetweasy]

I wouldn’t be shocked if Talbot rebounded elsewhere.

Oh absolutely he will.

When things start to rust in this organization they just try to paint over it with a new coat. Nobody seems to want to find out what is causing said rust......like maybe take a peak at our goalie coach......every goalie gets worse in Edmonton and most rebound once they leave. Talbot is no different.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Couldnt like this comment enough, beautifully put. Agree 100%

Its the same cycle

1. Oilers acquire a highly touted player (Schultz, Talbot, etc). Oiler fans get pumped
2. At the same time, Oilers mgmt fails to build any sort of support or depth
3. Said player has a few good seasons early on, but the lack of depth eventually will crush them
4. Player gets crapped on, Oilers bring in another highly touted player (Kosk)
5. Rinse, wash, repeat

Yep, Its an un noted, and it seems not well understood distortion and its amazing it continues to exist after all the Oilers org mistakes through the years. Last night we're facing Pety and the whole time I'm thinking he looks better than any Oilers D out on the ice. Always liked him.

The scary thing is that this 30 game Koski sample is what he looks like before his confidence is crushed by being in the Oilers cage. Talbot is really the only goalie we've had since Roloson that has exhibited an ability to get back to form after losing it. Talbot was very good in March and April last season. Imagine if the club he was on was good enough to make the playoffs. We would again be riding a hot goalie into post season.

I keep saying Talbot is the best goalie we've had since Roloson. Stats, everything, backs that up. Yet this is the goalie that many here have wanted the Oilers to discard in favor of the untried Koskinen.

Its the same distorted thought dynamic. Hall is not good enough. Eberle not good enough, Talbot not good enough. Have valid depth at all positions and the players are of course more than adequate in their roles.

 

[FlameChampion]

I understand that Talbot hasnt been good for awhile now and Koskinen has outplayed him. I agree it was worth taking the chance on Koskinen but man 3 years at 4.5 million aav is so short sighted. I dont understand the dollars, timing of the signing or quite frankly the term. Koskinen hasnt been great lately. They knew they were going to fire Chiarelli but they decided they were going to sign Koskinen to that contract anyway. Our management is so f*ck*d.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Oh absolutely he will.

When things start to rust in this organization they just try to paint over it with a new coat. Nobody seems to want to find out what is causing said rust......like maybe take a peak at our goalie coach......every goalie gets worse in Edmonton and most rebound once they leave. Talbot is no different.

As much as I've felt the same some of the advice seems to be working. For instance both goalies have allowed some short side shots they shouldn't. When the shooter has no option. The comment generally is goalie didn't seal the post. Left room there. This being noted in coaching as well and in 2019 with Talbot and Koski both adjusting their game and coming out a bit to seal the angle and to move their upper torso over (exaggerated) leaning over to make sure the puck hits them in the chest.

This is something that both Talbot and Koski are now doing that they were not doing before. As much as in my view its a possible over correction its one that is working to seal a flaw that both goalies have had. Its making sure of a stop. Just like a shortstop play in baseball. Move your body to the ball and seal any chance of it getting through.

There are moments like these where you can see what is being worked on. Another is Talbot remembering to come out on point shots, range shots, and close out angles and give less to shoot at. Talbot has great mobility so it makes sense for him to do this, whereas a barrage of shots tends to make goalies back into the cage too much. Goalie coaches work on things like that which creep into a goalies game.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Koski's Career save percentage is now .903 and his GAA 3.01. These are simply bad stats and its almost inconceivable a goalie so big that covers so much of the net just by standing there gives up so much. Other than his size there isn't much he' does really well.

His .908 save % this season is EXACTLY what Talbots save % was last season. EXACTLY.

yet the punters that hate Talbot by now say that Talbot was LOUSY last season. That he was garbage. The same posters have loved Koskinen and wanted him instead of Talbot. But only due to the New is perceived to be better dynamic I described above. There can be no logical reason how the two views could exist simultaneously.

 

[jonu]

Koski's Career save percentage is now .903 and his GAA 3.01. These are simply bad stats and its almost inconceivable a goalie so big that covers so much of the net just by standing there gives up so much. Other than his size there isn't much he' does really well.

His .908 save % this season is EXACTLY what Talbots save % was last season. EXACTLY.

yet the punters that hate Talbot by now say that Talbot was LOUSY last season. That he was garbage. The same posters have loved Koskinen and wanted him instead of Talbot. But only due to the New is perceived to be better dynamic I described above. There can be no logical reason how the two views could exist simultaneously.

Career numbers.. he has what? 36games in his career at NHL? He has about 3 seasons left to bump up those stats because with that few games the numbers will move a lot between performances.


You put Vasilevsky behind that D and he will probably barely get 91% behind the Oilers D. Goaltending is more than just standing in the net or having the perfect butterfly form, for example you have to have explicit trust in your D to keep their man (which for example didn't happen in yesterdays 3rd goal). If you lose trust enough trust on your D you start to overplay and that leads to a whole lot of problems..

Also, I see you commenting about goalie fundamentals, positioning etc while if you've never really played goalie or actually gone to a goalie coach program you don't actually have the knowledge to judge the deeper intricacies of goalie play.


Anyways, judging by your post history you have a real hard-on for Talbot and a real limp-one on Koskinen so you seem extremely biased to be making any "objective analysis" about the Oilers goalie situation.

 

[Nostradumbass]

Career numbers.. he has what? 36games in his career at NHL? He has about 3 seasons left to bump up those stats because with that few games the numbers will move a lot between performances.


You put Vasilevsky behind that D and he will probably barely get 91% behind the Oilers D. Goaltending is more than just standing in the net or having the perfect butterfly form, for example you have to have explicit trust in your D to keep their man (which for example didn't happen in yesterdays 3rd goal). If you lose trust enough trust on your D you start to overplay and that leads to a whole lot of problems..

Also, I see you commenting about goalie fundamentals, positioning etc while if you've never really played goalie or actually gone to a goalie coach program you don't actually have the knowledge to judge the deeper intricacies of goalie play.


Anyways, judging by your post history you have a real hard-on for Talbot and a real limp-one on Koskinen so you seem extremely biased to be making any "objective analysis" about the Oilers goalie situation.

$3.33 million OVER 3 years. 1.11/year

And Koskinen does have a lot to work on fundamentally-speaking. Since you ask for credentials, I learned from (and worked for) the same goalie coach as Holtby

 

[NegativeNelly]

I'm trying to remember the last time an Oiler goalie "stole" a game for us. I'm not sold on Koskinen at all and I think this 3 year deal will bite us in the ass.

 

[jonu]

$3.33 million OVER 3 years. 1.11/year

And Koskinen does have a lot to work on fundamentally-speaking. Since you ask for credentials, I learned from (and worked for) the same goalie coach as Holtby

Yes, I noticed when I went back to check it. Someone cheeky forgot to add the AAV first so I figured the 3.33 was AAV.

Are we talking about Korn? If so I'm jealous lol.
Anyways, my comment was more towards Drivesaitl since he is the one preaching in this thread about fundamentals, pristine technique and what not.

And yes, while Koski is not technically perfect I still wouldn't say Talbot is better in every technical aspect as Drivesaitl seems to claim. Nonetheless goalie play is still more than just technics and fundamentals, I know a lot of goalies who had good fundamentals and / or technical "skill" but lacked the instincts etc.

 

[Mez]

I'm trying to remember the last time an Oiler goalie "stole" a game for us. I'm not sold on Koskinen at all and I think this 3 year deal will bite us in the ass.

He stole a good chunk of those wins in our hot start with Hitch.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Career numbers.. he has what? 36games in his career at NHL? He has about 3 seasons left to bump up those stats because with that few games the numbers will move a lot between performances.


You put Vasilevsky behind that D and he will probably barely get 91% behind the Oilers D. Goaltending is more than just standing in the net or having the perfect butterfly form, for example you have to have explicit trust in your D to keep their man (which for example didn't happen in yesterdays 3rd goal). If you lose trust enough trust on your D you start to overplay and that leads to a whole lot of problems..

Also, I see you commenting about goalie fundamentals, positioning etc while if you've never really played goalie or actually gone to a goalie coach program you don't actually have the knowledge to judge the deeper intricacies of goalie play.


Anyways, judging by your post history you have a real hard-on for Talbot and a real limp-one on Koskinen so you seem extremely biased to be making any "objective analysis" about the Oilers goalie situation.

Apparently I have to be a rocket Scientist to observe the Challenger explosion and note something went wrong..

You voice the tired old notion that one cannot have any opinion if one is not a Goalie, a coach, a manager, etc. On a team board of a team that Drafted Steve Kelly when all of Rexall Place was chanting Shane Doan.. Yeah, sometimes its fair for punters to express an opinion, and maybe even a more informed one than the org at hand.

Its a messageboard. We all make comments. Some of us make more astute comments and try to substantiate them with particulars. You call out my comments, offering no substance in reply, and only "that I must have a hard on for Talbot" As if that's a better post and reply...

Plus that you're your from Finland coming here talking about a Finnish Oiler goalie and telling me all about objectivity and bias. At which point I'm only laughing.




Are you an expert?

 

[GMofOilers]

Cam Talbot has 4 wins since Oct 28th.

 

[NegativeNelly]

He stole a good chunk of those wins in our hot start with Hitch.

He played well, but I don't recall him stealing any games.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He played well, but I don't recall him stealing any games.

Well at least he's going to steal a bunch of cap space over the next three years.

 

[jonu]

Apparently I have to be a rocket Scientist to observe the Challenger explosion and note something went wrong..

You voice the tired old notion that one cannot have any opinion if one is not a Goalie, a coach, a manager, etc. On a team board of a team that Drafted Steve Kelly when all of Rexall Place was chanting Shane Doan.. Yeah, sometimes its fair for punters to express an opinion, and maybe even a more informed one than the org at hand.

Its a messageboard. We all make comments. Some of us make more astute comments and try to substantiate them with particulars. You call out my comments, offering no substance in reply, and only "that I must have a hard on for Talbot" As if that's a better post and reply...

Plus that you're your from Finland coming here talking about a Finnish Oiler goalie and telling me all about objectivity and bias. At which point I'm only laughing.




Are you an expert?

I voice the notion on goalie play, because its a whole different world(and my expert area) with its own nuances. I know its a message board and everyone is free to make comments, but you're the one on the Oilers board talking your own opinions as factual gospel (or seems like). You offer "particulars" like save% comparison between Talbot last year and Koski this year when they cannot be compared because of too many changing variables. There's been a lot of evidence that Koski isn't really doing so bad (about starter level on GSAA and GA%) but you're stuck on the notion that goalie needs to be pristine perfect technically in order to be good. There was a good graphic on this thread also which you kinda of just disregarded before so I really couldn't be arsed to give you any substance.

And regarding bias, I am not the one discrediting the other goalie based on my bias, I'm quite sure that Talbot right now is suffering even more from the lack of trust at his D than Koski is and that plays a part in his poor numbers. I even stated that Vasilevsky who is considered one of the premier goalies in this league would struggle to keep SV% over 91% with the Oilers.

In fact in my last post I talked about Oilers goaltending in general except for Koski's career save% and your bias, so can you show my bias so far on this thread?

And yes, I consider myself somewhat an expert in THIS area since I played goalie for 18 years and have gone through some goaltending coaching courses here in Finland along with coaching juniors for a few years.

 

[Hemsky4pm2]

The Oilers have:

Poor depth fowards
Poor high end defencemen
Average at best goaltending

The first thing I would have done as GM of this team would have been to go into the summer with 4M TOTAL to spend on goaltending. This team isn't going anywhere unless it develops a goalie or two through the draft and Bakersfield. I'd rather spend the cap on defenders and forwards who can score the occassional goal. There was no need to pay a premium for Koskinen.

Varlamov
Kinkaid
Mrakez
Lehner
Howard
Ward
Elliot
Talbot

I doubt that any of the above get more than 4M as UFAs and some of them will likely earn below 2M next year.

There was probably a healthy buyer's market for the likes of Greiss,

 

[guymez]

He played well, but I don't recall him stealing any games.

As the games add up Koskinen is showing his true colors. His sv% has been dropping (below .900) for the last 10+ games.
He is a below average starter with some odd fundamentals.

Will he be better moving forward...I doubt it.