Komisarek versus Every Other Defenceman...

[montreal]

that's kind of the problem. You're basing your judgement of Mark Eaton on what you KNEW of him...and Mark Eaton, in ONE SUMMER took such a huge step forward that even PREDS fans couldn't believe it. He went from being referred to as "Question Mark" and being called to be sent to the AHL...to being our absolute best defensive d-man. He was called upon to bulk up..he did. He was called upon to hit the weight room....he did that to the point that he turned down an offer to play for the US world championship team just so that he could do nothing but get stronger. He was called upon to go from being an offensive defenseman and turn to being a strictly stay at home guy, so that he could be paired with Timonen. What did he have last year? 15 points? and yet he somehow managed to set a Nashville record with a PLUS SIXTEEN rating. He was out EVERY night against the top lines, and shut down the likes of Naslund, Tkachuk, Bertuzzi and so forth. He was not only "prone to making mistakes in his own end," he almost never did. I can't actually think of one noticeable "bad play" he made...all of last year. So..unless you watched him a good amount last year...it's unfair to judge him, because there really was that much of a difference. I will go as far as to say... Eaton is the best PURELY DEFENSIVE d-man on either team, Nashville or Montreal. You can go on about how Markov will put better numbers up..and he will...but if you want a shut down guy, Eaton is the man for either team.

Even with one good year, I don't see how Eaton is all the sudden better then Markov who has been good in his own end for the last 3 years, and 2 more in Russia. But it's all a matter of prefrence, and no need to go on and on about who's better then who. (although it does appear we'll have lots of time to discuss over and over) I still have a hard time seeing Eaton as being a great defensemen in his own end, but I'll have to take others word for it since I clearly didn't see this from him. Still one year is hard to put him over someone who's had a few years to show he can play well in his own end.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Komisarek made the NHL before Hamhuis did, if you want to go that route. When the Habs defence was hit by injuries they called him up in February of 2003 and he played 21 games while Hamhuis was still struggling in the AHL. Last season, the Montreal defence was healthy for most of the year, the only player to miss significant time was left side defenceman Souray. As a result, Komisarek averaged only 12 minutes a game in about half a season's worth of games. He did beat out two veterans who were starters on two other teams beside Montreal in Dykhuis and Traverse. Dykhuis was a starter in Chicago and Philadelphia before coming to Montreal. Traverse was a starter in Ottawa and Boston before coming to Montreal. Both were sent to the AHL even though they had one way contracts. So was Ron Hainsey who was an All American, AHL All Star and AHL All Rookie selection prior to joining the Habs. Komisarek also earned both nominations as a rookie (All Star starter) and was an AHL All Star again last season despite just playing 18 games in Hamilton. He was also selected as the Sporting News and Hockey News Minor League Player of the Year after the 2002-2003 season. I don't think Hamhuis won any awards or made any select teams in the AHL.

You do realize that calling Dykhuis & Traverse NHL starters is a HUGE injustice to NHL defenseman? At this point in their career, in NO WAY should they be considered NHL d-men. I really thought that the Traverse/Weinrich deadline deal was one of the worst deadline deals of all time.

I'm sorry if being an AHL all-star doesn't exactly do anything for me. Who was the AHL-All Star MVP - maybe Pavel Rosa? Where exactly are John Slaney's NHL career stats?

Not that I think that Junior or AHL awards mean anything with regards to future NHL success, but Hamhuis won the following:

2001-02
CHL - Dewalt Top Defenceman Award (Canadian Major Junior)

CHL - First All-Star Team (Canadian Major Junior)

WHL - Four Broncos Memorial Trophy (MVP)

WHL - Bill Hunter Trophy (Top Defensemen)

WHL - West First All-Star Team

2000-01
WHL - West First All-Star Team

I just wonder why you use Komi's AHL stat's as a reason for his future success, while minimizing the value other players NHL stat's?

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

So..unless you watched him a good amount last year...it's unfair to judge him, because there really was that much of a difference. I will go as far as to say... Eaton is the best PURELY DEFENSIVE d-man on either team, Nashville or Montreal. You can go on about how Markov will put better numbers up..and he will...but if you want a shut down guy, Eaton is the man for either team.

I am hoping you watched Markov play 60 times last year to make that kind of statement. Frankly I doubt it and you look very hypocritical. I am actually hoping you watched Markov for 70 games the previous year because you would have seen him play shut down man versus top lines.

Also if I am taking shut down dman for either. I would take Souray's dominance over Thornton the last few years over anyone on either team.

 

[montreal]

You do realize that calling Dykhuis & Traverse NHL starters is a HUGE injustice to NHL defenseman? At this point in their career, in NO WAY should they be considered NHL d-men. I really thought that the Traverse/Weinrich deadline deal was one of the worst deadline deals of all time.

In minor defense of Savard, I think worst deadline deal of all time is a little off. Yes it was a poor deal for the Habs, very poor. But if you look back, Traverse actually had one good year with the Sens, when Savard was an assistant for the Sens. I assume he thought he was getting a cheap depth defensemen on a team that over the 2-3 years before broke the record for man game lost to injury. I'm not saying it was a good deal and actually what was worse was that he resigned him after that, but in context I don't think it was one of the worst deadline deals of all time.

I also think Dykhuis is a decent 7th defensemen, who skates well and usually just throws the puck off the glass, but I don't think he completely sucks. 2-3 years ago he was a solid average defensemen, and led the Habs in +/- with a +16 while playing with Mr. Turnover Brisebois. But I would say his time in the NHL is over, athough he was solid in the AHL this year in a leadership role for Hamilton one of the top AHL teams last year.

 

[db23]

I just wonder why you use Komi's AHL stat's as a reason for his future success, while minimizing the value other players NHL stat's?

If he put up points as a 20 year old in the AHL, chances are he can in the NHL. At that point, Hamhuis and Komisarek were in similar situations adn getting equal ice time. In the NHL last year, Hamhuis got about 3 or 4 times the ice time as Komisarek. 20 odd points and a -12 rating aren't exactly overwhelming. Jim Fahey did the same with San Jose in 2002-2003 and was back in the minors last year.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

In minor defense of Savard, I think worst deadline deal of all time is a little off. Yes it was a poor deal for the Habs, very poor. But if you look back, Traverse actually had one good year with the Sens, when Savard was an assistant for the Sens. I assume he thought he was getting a cheap depth defensemen on a team that over the 2-3 years before broke the record for man game lost to injury. I'm not saying it was a good deal and actually what was worse was that he resigned him after that, but in context I don't think it was one of the worst deadline deals of all time.

I also think Dykhuis is a decent 7th defensemen, who skates well and usually just throws the puck off the glass, but I don't think he completely sucks. 2-3 years ago he was a solid average defensemen, and led the Habs in +/- with a +16 while playing with Mr. Turnover Brisebois. But I would say his time in the NHL is over, athough he was solid in the AHL this year in a leadership role for Hamilton one of the top AHL teams last year.

You are probably right with Traverse. It wasn't one of the worst deals of all time, but it was a REALLY bad deal IMO. Savard felt that he had to get a usable NHL player for Weinrich, instead of a prospect or draft pick, and then saddles himself with Traverse (who did have one decent season in OTT), and compounds the error by giving him a contract extension.

That would be like me arguing that the Hawks didn't want to give Yakubov, Vorobiev & Babchuk a shot because they had Scott Nichol, Igor Korolev and Steve Poapst. But that Yakubov & Vorobiev were still on pace to be 1st line players.

 

[montreal]

You are probably right with Traverse. It wasn't one of the worst deals of all time, but it was a REALLY bad deal IMO. Savard felt that he had to get a usable NHL player for Weinrich, instead of a prospect or draft pick, and then saddles himself with Traverse (who did have one decent season in OTT), and compounds the error by giving him a contract extension.

That would be like me arguing that the Hawks didn't want to give Yakubov, Vorobiev & Babchuk a shot because they had Scott Nichol, Igor Korolev and Steve Poapst. But that Yakubov & Vorobiev were still on pace to be 1st line players.

I wasn't talking about any prospects on the Habs, just thought you were too harsh on the Traverse deal. And let me say I can't stand Traverse, but I don't think it was that bad, it was the resigning him that really hurt imo. The only prospect Traverse would have taken ice time from was Hainsey, and he was just having too much trouble in his own end. With Therrien as coach at the time, Hainsey was given a very short lesh to begin with. When Julien came on board, I thought he would work with Hainsey more, but my guess is they didn't like his work ethic and attitude although it's only a guess. From what I've heard Hainsey really enjoyed himself on St. Cathrine's st.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

If he put up points as a 20 year old in the AHL, chances are he can in the NHL. At that point, Hamhuis and Komisarek were in similar situations adn getting equal ice time. In the NHL last year, Hamhuis got about 3 or 4 times the ice time as Komisarek. 20 odd points and a -12 rating aren't exactly overwhelming. Jim Fahey did the same with San Jose in 2002-2003 and was back in the minors last year.

That were we disagree 100%.

Look at John Slaney's stat's. Look at Pavel Rosa's stat's. They are both basically a PPG player in the AHL/IHL, and can't keep a job in the NHL.

I'm not saying that Hamhuis put up overwhelming numbers. But he did produce, and Komi didn't. You relate the entire difference to icetime (which a player earns IMO), and I relate it to one player making the transition of playing the game at a much different speed, and the other not.

BTW, I'm not saying that Komi's can't make the transition. I am saying there is a possibility that he doesn't the ceiling you have for him (as one of the best d-men in the league). I am also saying that I would have MUCH more confidence in a player that has shown he can produce at the NHL level, and subsequently earned more icetime.

You can point to a solid play-off's as a sign that Komi's "getting it" and turning the corner. You could also make comparison's to a player like Jovo who started out a big hitting, avg to below average positional defenseman that didn't initially generate a ton of offense but ended up making it. Just make those points and not base an arguement on how the players performed 2 years ago in an inferior league.

 

[looooob]

What a joke.....QUOTE]
Niklas Sundblad, Jesper Mattson, Chris O'Sullivan, Pavel Smirnov, Travis Bigley, Chris Dingman, Daniel Tkachuk, Brent Krahn, Oleg Saprykin, Chuck Kobasew.....

No wonder you're a bitter person....

are you referring to the Oleg Saprykin who just finished a solid playoff run and was traded for Daymond Langkow, and the Chuck Kobasew who along with Saprykin just finished playing regularly into the Stanley Cup Finals...yep we're crying over here in Calgary

come to think of it, wasn't that Chris Dingman I saw carrying his 2nd Stanley Cup around the ice?

or do we have to go back over the last 15 years of Montreal Canadien history and randomly draw out names of draft failures? How are Brett Bilodeau, Terry Ryan and Gregor Baumgartner doing these days?

 

[nomorekids]

That were we disagree 100%.

Look at John Slaney's stat's. Look at Pavel Rosa's stat's. They are both basically a PPG player in the AHL/IHL, and can't keep a job in the NHL.

I'm not saying that Hamhuis put up overwhelming numbers. But he did produce, and Komi didn't. You relate the entire difference to icetime (which a player earns IMO), and I relate it to one player making the transition of playing the game at a much different speed, and the other not.

BTW, I'm not saying that Komi's can't make the transition. I am saying there is a possibility that he doesn't the ceiling you have for him (as one of the best d-men in the league). I am also saying that I would have MUCH more confidence in a player that has shown he can produce at the NHL level, and subsequently earned more icetime.

You can point to a solid play-off's as a sign that Komi's "getting it" and turning the corner. You could also make comparison's to a player like Jovo who started out a big hitting, avg to below average positional defenseman that didn't initially generate a ton of offense but ended up making it. Just make those points and not base an arguement on how the players performed 2 years ago in an inferior league.

it should be noted that Hamhuis is being groomed less for his offensive game and more for his DEFENSIVE game, so he's likely not going to put up HUGE numbers.

 

[db23]

it should be noted that Hamhuis is being groomed less for his offensive game and more for his DEFENSIVE game, so he's likely not going to put up HUGE numbers.

Guys like Slaney and Rosa are about 30 years old and have been in the AHL forever. They can't stick in the NHL because they are small, soft, and one dimensional. It is a lousy comparison. Check Zdeno Chara as a 20 year old AHL rookie. Or Sergei Gonchar. Komisarek has every bit the offensive ability of Hamhuis, plus he will be better defensively and much more of a physical presence.

 

[nomorekids]

Guys like Slaney and Rosa are about 30 years old and have been in the AHL forever. They can't stick in the NHL because they are small, soft, and one dimensional. It is a lousy comparison. Check Zdeno Chara as a 20 year old AHL rookie. Or Sergei Gonchar. Komisarek has every bit the offensive ability of Hamhuis, plus he will be better defensively and much more of a physical presence.

he will not be better defensively, as he lacks the most important thing that Hamhuis has...uncanny hockey smarts. It's Hamhuis's mental game that makes him so good. Komisarek will not be as good as Hamhuis in ANY way. Try that one on for size. If you want a better comparision for Komisarek, i'd focus on Brooks Orpik, and I think Orpik will be better, as well.

Oh..and by the way..Pavel Rosa is only 26, and was a second round pick. He and John Slaney can light up the AHL but never made the NHL consistently...but they weren't borne into the league as "career AHL guys." It just happened that way.

 

[Sammy*]

Guys like Slaney and Rosa are about 30 years old and have been in the AHL forever. They can't stick in the NHL because they are small, soft, and one dimensional. It is a lousy comparison. Check Zdeno Chara as a 20 year old AHL rookie. Or Sergei Gonchar. Komisarek has every bit the offensive ability of Hamhuis, plus he will be better defensively and much more of a physical presence.

But Slaney was a high draft pick & lit it up everywhere he played except for the NHL.
He's going to be waaay better than Komisarek.

 

[Enoch]

...where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodified......

When beaten in an argument and debate, the one thing that never fails to win people to your side is to post something completely off-topic and illogical, and then attempt to use it as a point in your own little world built up on fallacies, homerism, and statisical misconceptions.

Rock on.

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

I have never seen so much BS in one thread.

Hainsey better than Leopold
Komisarek the best
Pitkanen and Leopold wouldn't play a lot in Montreal
Komisarek better because he has played since he was 12, compared to Bouwmeester who started at 4
AHL means everything only for habs prospects, while other prospects stats don't count in AHL.


Man, some habs fans look really bad in this thread.
Hainsey is NOT better than Leopold at the moment
Komisarek is NOT the best defensive prospect
Pitkanen and Leopold would have been playing over Rivet, Quintal, and Bouillon last season.
Who cares when they started hockey.
How you play counts in the AHL, not how much points you put up. Many players have put up points in the AHL, yet have never stuck in the NHL.

 

[Habsaku]

I have never seen so much BS in one thread.

Hainsey better than Leopold
Komisarek the best
Pitkanen and Leopold wouldn't play a lot in Montreal
Komisarek better because he has played since he was 12, compared to Bouwmeester who started at 4
AHL means everything only for habs prospects, while other prospects stats don't count in AHL.


Man, some habs fans look really bad in this thread.
Hainsey is NOT better than Leopold at the moment
Komisarek is NOT the best defensive prospect
Pitkanen and Leopold would have been playing over Rivet, Quintal, and Bouillon last season.
Who cares when they started hockey.
How you play counts in the AHL, not how much points you put up. Many players have put up points in the AHL, yet have never stuck in the NHL.

Your right, Hainsey and Komisarek arent even close to what some are arguing. But saying Pitkanen and Leopold would have played over the vets last year proves you know close to nothing about Montreal. Even playing great, those guys wouldve been benched or put on the last pairing. Markov, for example, was absolutly dominating during the first half of 2002-2003, yet Traverse, Brisebois and Rivet were playing ahead of him, dont you find that odd? Its always been like that(Guy Lafleur being benched/put on the bottom lines for his first 3 years in the league, the freaking best forward of the 70s ), CJ and BG changed that a bit, but it remains roughly the same. And yes, people care about when someone starts hockey because it often means hes still got a lot of improvement so a lot of potential, if he can be a top performer yet have played a lot less then the competition, chances are hes gonna be one hell of a player. Its like that in everything, I'm in music and its like, I've played tons of sports, and its always like that, hockey isnt any different. And Komisarek did not just put up points in the AHL, he played tremendously well, he was an all-star.

Anyways, arguing in Hfboards while also being a habs fan is a big waste of time.

 

[Sammy*]

Your right, Hainsey and Komisarek arent even close to what some are arguing. But saying Pitkanen and Leopold would have played over the vets last year proves you know close to nothing about Montreal. Even playing great, those guys wouldve been benched or put on the last pairing. Markov, for example, was absolutly dominating during the first half of 2002-2003, yet Traverse, Brisebois and Rivet were playing ahead of him, dont you find that odd? Its always been like that(Guy Lafleur being benched/put on the bottom lines for his first 3 years in the league, the freaking best forward of the 70s ), CJ and BG changed that a bit, but it remains roughly the same. And yes, people care about when someone starts hockey because it often means hes still got a lot of improvement so a lot of potential, if he can be a top performer yet have played a lot less then the competition, chances are hes gonna be one hell of a player. Its like that in everything, I'm in music and its like, I've played tons of sports, and its always like that, hockey isnt any different. And Komisarek did not just put up points in the AHL, he played tremendously well, he was an all-star.

Anyways, arguing in Hfboards while also being a habs fan is a big waste of time.

Do you have a clue. Young guys have not been broken in recent years (or have been broken in slowly) on the Habs (not in the Jurassic era of Lafleur) because the Habs have by & large drafted like crap & their young players were by & large crap.Whats the explanation on Ryder & that embarassment Riberio then(this should be good)?
By the way, watch Leopold . Once you do ,hopefully you will clue in & realize that your belief that somehow the Habs AHL defencemen would play ahead of him is a bad joke.
Why oh why when it comes to a Hab prospect is it some kind of grand conspiracy that is the reason he cant play regularly right now (or in the past)? Is it possible (dare we say) that he isnt near good enough at the present time?

 

[Habsaku]

Do you have a clue. Young guys have not been broken in recent years (or have been broken in slowly) on the Habs (not in the Jurassic era of Lafleur) because the Habs have by & large drafted like crap & their young players were by & large crap.Whats the explanation on Ryder & that embarassment Riberio then(this should be good)?
By the way, watch Leopold . Once you do ,hopefully you will clue in & realize that your belief that somehow the Habs AHL defencemen would play ahead of him is a bad joke.
Why oh why when it comes to a Hab prospect is it some kind of grand conspiracy that is the reason he cant play regularly right now (or in the past)? Is it possible (dare we say) that he isnt near good enough at the present time?

I dont even know if I should dignify this with an answer because it pretty much sums up what HFboards is all about. Unless Leopold was different during the regular season, then yes, I did watch him. Also, the Jurassic era of Lafleur might have been Hockeys best so you should yourself clue in and realize everything isnt what you want it to be.
How old are Ryder and Ribeiro again? Go check it out on TSN.ca, you might get a nice surprise considering their first season is pretty late compared to a lot of high potential yougsnters. In fact Ribeiro has been in the league for 5 years sporadically even though I really believe his game hasnt improved that much from 2 years ago where he coudlve played over the likes of Yannic Perreault, yet the coaching staff decided to go with the vets(and the salary). How about the Markov example? Or sending down Hainsey when he really didnt play bad at the start of the year. Or putting Hossa on the 4th line just because he didnt score after 4 games. Habs prospect can do well if they like, they'll end up on the 4th line. Its happened to every young habs player since Saku Koivu who was lucky enough to start out on the 3rd. Anyway, Habs hate here is priceless. Also, consider this, Calgary and Montreal are not comparable hockey markets, only Toronto is(and Toronto is a much bigger market, both based on media and number of fans). Fans want to see a winning product, they are very negative about the team unlike Calgary who have endured and accepted even more years of even more mediocrity. Calgary doesnt have the same standarts to achieve and had no choice to go with Leopold since they've never had a penny to begin with, I mean, is Iginla signed yet, is your ONLY above average player signed yet? He wont be until the CBA for obvious reasons but still, you dont have the priviledge to sign washed up vets who take up ice time, who win over the locker room and whom coaches are affraid to bench.

EDIT: that embarassement would be your first line center, so have fun making the playoffs next year, history shows cinderella teams become powerhouses right :lol ?

 

[Sammy*]

I dont even know if I should dignify this with an answer because it pretty much sums up what HFboards is all about. Unless Leopold was different during the regular season, then yes, I did watch him. Also, the Jurassic era of Lafleur might have been Hockeys best so you should yourself clue in and realize everything isnt what you want it to be.
How old are Ryder and Ribeiro again? Go check it out on TSN.ca, you might get a nice surprise considering their first season is pretty late compared to a lot of high potential yougsnters. In fact Ribeiro has been in the league for 5 years sporadically even though I really believe his game hasnt improved that much from 2 years ago where he coudlve played over the likes of Yannic Perreault, yet the coaching staff decided to go with the vets(and the salary). How about the Markov example? Or sending down Hainsey when he really didnt play bad at the start of the year. Or putting Hossa on the 4th line just because he didnt score after 4 games. Habs prospect can do well if they like, they'll end up on the 4th line. Its happened to every young habs player since Saku Koivu who was lucky enough to start out on the 3rd. Anyway, Habs hate here is priceless. Also, consider this, Calgary and Montreal are not comparable hockey markets, only Toronto is(and Toronto is a much bigger market, both based on media and number of fans). Fans want to see a winning product, they are very negative about the team unlike Calgary who have endured and accepted even more years of even more mediocrity. Calgary doesnt have the same standarts to achieve and had no choice to go with Leopold since they've never had a penny to begin with, I mean, is Iginla signed yet, is your ONLY above average player signed yet? He wont be until the CBA for obvious reasons but still, you dont have the priviledge to sign washed up vets who take up ice time, who win over the locker room and whom coaches are affraid to bench.

EDIT: that embarassement would be your first line center, so have fun making the playoffs next year, history shows cinderella teams become powerhouses right :lol ?

Way to go bud. Great insight & explanation . Riberio, Leopold & Ryder were all borne in 80'.
this is just tooooooooo rich.

 

[Habsaku]

Way to go bud. Great insight & explanation . Riberio, Leopold & Ryder were all borne in 80'.
this is just tooooooooo rich.

Oh really?? Well that destroys my arguments doesnt it :lol . Your missing the point.

 

[Sammy*]

Oh really?? Well that destroys my arguments doesnt it :lol . Your missing the point.

One of your so called "points" was that Riberio/Ryder were not brought along slowly because they were older. Good one. Leopold was borne in the same year as those guys so there goes the "point" that Leopold would not have replaced such AHL luminaries as Traverse & Dykhuis (which even the mighty Komi could not supplant) because the Habs bring along their mighty blue chippers oh so slow.
Nah, I guess the reason couldnt be is they are just not good enough.
What a frickin joke.

 

[waffledave]

One of your so called "points" was that Riberio/Ryder were not brought along slowly because they were older. Good one. Leopold was borne in the same year as those guys so there goes the "point" that Leopold would not have replaced such AHL luminaries as Traverse & Dykhuis (which even the mighty Komi could not supplant) because the Habs bring along their mighty blue chippers oh so slow.
Nah, I guess the reason couldnt be is they are just not good enough.
What a frickin joke.

Ribs was brought in over the course of like 4 years.

 

[Habsaku]

One of your so called "points" was that Riberio/Ryder were not brought along slowly because they were older. Good one. Leopold was borne in the same year as those guys so there goes the "point" that Leopold would not have replaced such AHL luminaries as Traverse & Dykhuis (which even the mighty Komi could not supplant) because the Habs bring along their mighty blue chippers oh so slow.
Nah, I guess the reason couldnt be is they are just not good enough.
What a frickin joke.

Komisarek was never against Traverse and Dykhuis, so yes, you are missing the point. i'm not gonna bother anymore, I'm tired of arguing here its become really nuissance. People dont even bother trying to have discussions, its just there pre-team hormones needing to exteriorate in some shape or form since they cant in real life.

What a freaking joke, I agree.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Anyways, arguing in Hfboards while also being a habs fan is a big waste of time.

Oh, here it comes - the Matyred Habs poster.

People are responding to db23 because he's an incredible homer that has no clue.

Most posters agree that Komi will turn into a good d-man. But we're trying to debate that with a guy that said that he's the best d-man under 23 YO, and that Hainsey is better than Jordan Leopold. Yeah, that stiff that was playing 25 minutes a night for a team in the Stanley Cup Finals.

The reason given for the future dominance of Hainsey & Komi: AHL dominance (at least in Komi's case), and the physical tools. I am I the only one that thinks that teh mental aspect of the game is about 5x more important than just having the physical skills?

 

[looooob]

Also, consider this, Calgary and Montreal are not comparable hockey markets, only Toronto is(and Toronto is a much bigger market, both based on media and number of fans). Fans want to see a winning product, they are very negative about the team unlike Calgary who have endured and accepted even more years of even more mediocrity. Calgary doesnt have the same standarts to achieve and had no choice to go with Leopold since they've never had a penny to begin with, I mean, is Iginla signed yet, is your ONLY above average player signed yet? He wont be until the CBA for obvious reasons but still, you dont have the priviledge to sign washed up vets who take up ice time, who win over the locker room and whom coaches are affraid to bench.

EDIT: that embarassement would be your first line center, so have fun making the playoffs next year, history shows cinderella teams become powerhouses right :lol ?

this is perhaps the biggest steaming pile I have ever read on this board, and that is saying something. I'm not sure where to start actually