Kostin did everything he could to win a spot and play last year and the Blues send him down. He had what, 4, maybe 5 goals in the preseason? Scores a beautiful Regular Season goal and gets sent down the next day. Blues want to make him a north south player and you know its in his blood to want to score goals. Blues wasted a season in prepping him for NHL play. They should give him a chance to let him try and be the goal scorer he thinks he is. If he can't do it over a 200/250 game basis, then go ahead and turn him into a north/south player. To me, the Blues have kind of screwed things up with this kid. He better make the team and play this year. I can't see how they hold him back again. It would be a disaster IMO.
Prospect Info: Klim Kostin (31st overall in 2017)
- Thread starter LastWordArmy
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- Jul 4, 2014
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My head hurts from the cognitive dissonance here relative to why so many people don't think Kyrou is ready for full time NHL duty. Is it because he is Russian or because he was a 1st Round pick that he doesn't need to learn a team game, whereas Kyrou can't be trusted at the NHL level until he learns how to play better defense because he is Canadian and "only" a second rounder?
Got nothing against Kyrou. I was pleasantly surprised at how he played in the Vancouver series. There's hope for the kid. But unlike Kryou, Kostin hasn't gotten a sniff at the NHL level, and he deserved to play a good chunk of last season and he didn't. Where's the future for guys like De La Rosa or Maceachern? Or what other stiff they stick in there. Kostin has the potential and he needs to be set free.
- Jul 4, 2014
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On what basis? Kyrou didn't even play in half the regular season games last season, and he has shown far more effectiveness in the AHL at scoring than Kostin. Both have a lot to learn in terms of affecting the game (positively) when they don't have the puck, but Kyrou has more experience and, I would argue, a higher hockey IQ allowing him to be more effective and more likely to be able to continue to develop his game in the NHL. You aren't coming right out and saying it, but it sure sounds like you're suggesting that Kostin deserved as much or more time in the NHL as Kyrou got, maybe even at Kyrou's expense, and I feel that is grossly overstating the state of his current level of development as a player.
Some of the other guys you mentioned are there because there are roles to fill that don't necessarily rely on the skills that it is hoped Kostin will be able to develop and they will fill those roles far better than he can at this point in his career. He's going to develop his skills and his confidence much better playing 18 minutes a night in the AHL as a top line player than he will playing 7 minutes a night in the NHL in a role that he should develop beyond.
Yes, because a few preseason goals is more important than the previous season where he was marginal AHLer? Seriously..
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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Everybody is different. This is a Russian kid who wants to be in the NHL, He was originally projected as a top 10 pick. How much interest and drive is he going to have playing in the minors. How much longer do you think that’s going to last? Give him some playing time in the NHL so he can learn and be even more hungry to improve. Burying him in the minors isn’t going to accomplish anything. Seriously..
- Feb 12, 2008
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Kostin is going to grab a spot this training camp and never look back.
Brockon
Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
Because 13-17-30p in 48gp before age 21 in the AHL during his D+3 season is somehow marginal? Jesus.
Most people forget that Kostin wouldn't have played in the AHL in his D+1 had he been north American, because he would have been ineligible - he would have had to play NCAA or CHL hockey. Most North Americans play their D+2 as an overager season after their up to 9 game cup of coffee in the NHL before being sent back to juniors because THEY ARE AHL INELIGIBLE until age 20. It's NHL or juniors, so your list of comparables playing in the AHL at 18 and 19 is basically non existant...
Here's a list of some players off the top of my head who are having successful NHL careers who played in the AHL before. Some stars, some complimentary pieces - look at their D+3 seasons and compare them to Kostin's...
Kostin's D+3
2019-20 NHL 1-0-1 in 4gp
2019-20 AHL 13-17-30p in 48gp
AHL PPG 0.625
Kyrou's D+3
2018-19 NHL 1-2-3p in 16gp
2018-19 AHL 17-26-43p in 47gp
AHL PPG 0.915
Gurianov's D+3 (#12 OA)
2017-18 AHL 19-15-34p in 74 gp
AHL PPG 0.459
Schwartz's D+3 season (#14 OA)
2012-13 NHL 6-7-13p 45gp
2012-13 AHL 9-10-19p 33gp.
AHL PPG 0.576
Sanford's D+4 season (D+3 in NCAA)
2016-17 NHL 4-4-8p in 44gp
2016-17 AHL 11-5-16p in 25gp
AHL PPG 0.64
Stone's D+3 season
2012-13 NHL 0p 4gp
2012-13 AHL 15-23-38p in 54gp
AHL PPG 0.704
Couture's D+3 season (#9 OA)
2009-10 NHL 5-4-9p in 25gp
2009-10 AHL 20-33-53p in 42gp
AHL PPG 1.262
Kucherov's D+3 season
2013-14 NHL 9-9-18p in 52gp
2013-14 AHL 13-11-24p in 17gp
AHL PPG 1.412
Tell me again he's a bust? Again he's 21 and drafted outside the top 10... He's playing his D+4 season in a pandemic, after getting the end of his D+3 season where stats get padded removed.
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Brockon
Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
I'd expect to see him arriving at training camp in better shape than others and more on the ball, because he's currently playing in the KHL - though looking at the scoresheets, because that's all I've found... I'd hazard a guess he's not getting many minutes.
Per Rotoworld (there's not much else out there)...
"Klim Kostin has struggled in the KHL this season with only two assists in 13 games.
Kostin is only averaging 9:06 of ice time per game as his struggles back home continue. He was selected in the first round and 31st overall in the 2017 Draft and has played only four games in the NHL, scoring once. He will return to St. Louis once training camps are open and that could boost his confidence as he seems to have none playing for Avangard Omsk."
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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The answer is not "... so, give him a playing spot whether he earns it or not." The last thing I want is a message sent to prospects that "if you're highly-touted, we'll give you a spot if you come in for that 4th year and kind of half-ass it." If there's 12 players who are better than him in training camp - and I'm not talking "all 12 have better offensive skills," I'm talking "those 12 fill roles better that contribute to a more complete all-around team game" then those are the 12 I want playing. You're #13 and don't like it? Go ask the coaches what you need to do to earn a spot in that top-12, go down to the minors and work on those things with a vengeance, take away all the reasons why you shouldn't be on an NHL roster; don't piss and moan and sulk about it.
Bury the kid in the minors another year and he might go to Russia for good. That’s not good business. How many other guys scored 4 or 5 preseason goals last year? And he did it in successive games. He deserved time up here.
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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I'm not saying he's a bust, or that he won't have that breakout year and start setting the path to a solid NHL career. But I can point to numerous guys who also had good pre-NHL production as younger players, who've bounced around organizations and never cracked the NHL more than cups-of-coffee stints. [All the examples from years past about offensive stats not meaning squat for NHL performance go here. All of them - some of which should be really familiar to Blues fans, from as recent as 3 years ago to as far away as 30 years ago or more. P.S. - Jamie Rivers says hi.]
Why couldn't those guys stick? Well, all the usual stuff. Not a great skater. Didn't play well when not on the puck. Struggled to utilize teammates. Tunnel vision with the puck. Didn't work hard enough in the corners. Poor defensively. All the things that differentiate NHL players from AHL players. Unless you are truly an elite scorer, it's not enough to be a good scorer - and there are damn few truly elite scorers skating around on the planet.
So ... what are the weaknesses in Kostin's game? I'm confident there isn't some anti-Russian, anti-European bias in the organization where all the powerful know-nothings are holding The Man down. What is it that's kept him from really breaking through? Start there, you start to understand what it's going to take for him to crack the NHL full-time and what it will take for him to realize his potential - and you probably realize along the way that some of that may (will) not happen and you start lowering expectations accordingly.
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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I don't give a rat's ass how many preseason goals he scored. [He had 3 last year, BTW.] Auston Matthews had 5 goals last year. 4 others had 7. Are Kings fans clamoring for Michael Amadio to have a roster spot for his 4 goals last preseason? Do Red Wings fans think Michael Rasmussen is a roster lock because of his 4 goals last preseason? Did Colorado fans lament Jaroslav Hlinka not getting to be their next offensive star after he put up 6 goals in the 2007 preseason?
Preseason scoring means shit. The preseason is a tune-up period to get ready for the regular season. You put up stats there, awesome - you're playing against a mix of NHLers, AHLers and throw-ins who coaches want to get a look at once, maybe twice. Some guys are treating it as nothing, some guys are busting their ass trying to earn a roster spot, some guys are showing they're way over their heard. It's an evaluation period. When the league starts handing out trophies for preseason performance, let me know.
He didn't deserve time up in the NHL. He could - should - try to earn it. If he thinks he deserves a spot and wants to run off to Russia and stay there instead of earning it, I'll help pack his bags and buy the one-way ticket there. I want guys who want to work their asses off to earn their roster spot, not guys looking for easy paths who get gifted their spots out of some sense of obligation for where they were drafted or some misjudged valuation of their skill set who then don't know how to work their ass off when some adversity comes their way and they have to figure out how to overcome it and get better against other players who are also talented but are working their asses off.
Celtic Note
Living the dream
- Dec 22, 2006
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Just because a player scores preseason goals does not mean they are doing the things they need to succeed in the NHL on a daily basis nor does the small sample size against inferior competition illustrate an accurate projection of what they can bring over 82 games. You can actively point and still have a detrimental impact on the game.
We can’t pander to prospects because they throw temper tantrums. In fact, I would actively try to cut bait with a player who pulls that. If Kostin packed his bags this year, it could file under the tantrum category depending on the circumstances that preceded leaving.
Now if the Blues and the player agree to a move that is in the best interest of the team and player, then great. Or if the player has shown capabilities that other teams would favor, but the Blues don’t value, then maybe it’s understandable to make a move.
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Brockon
Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
I disagree with this idea. Given his struggles in his current stint on loan to the KHL - I think we'll see him work harder here, between his dream of playing in the NHL and knowing he isn't going to be given anything back in Russia either. 0-2-2 in 14gp with an ATOI 9:06 should give him the reality check that he's either going to have to steal the ice time from someone else or settle for being a 2nd tier league star in the AHL, Europe etc.
As for the pre-season goals. They don't mean much... Just ask Ty Rattie how far leading the NHL pre-season in scoring means (can't recall if it was goals or outright scoring while in EDM).
My recent posts have been more about showing why Kostin shouldn't be dismissed as a bust than saying he wasn't given enough opportunity. Kostin should be fighting for a roster spot this year or producing at/above 0.8 PPG in the AHL waiting for an injury fill in opportunity. I expect a strong D+4 season wherever he plays and a respectable D+5 showing in the NHL as a 3rd liner for us.
@Celtic Note @Ted Hoffman
Brockon
Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
I found the details... Ty Rattie
7-4-11p in 4 pre-season games 2018-19. 4-7-11p in 50 NHL gp 2018-19. Then he went overseas at age 25.
7-4-11p in 4 pre-season games 2018-19. 4-7-11p in 50 NHL gp 2018-19. Then he went overseas at age 25.
JoshFromMO
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EastonBlues22
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