Kitchener Rangers 2019-20 Season Thread (Part 2)

[EvenSteven]

ya compared to a couple top teams, that doesn't make it "bare" in general, which is often said. It's also redundant to mention it every other day.

Fair enough. But on these message boards, there’s a lot talked about that is redundant. But for sure what is redundant is that once the middle of November hits, trade talk and buying and selling are usually top of mind across the league every year.

Depending on your team’s situation, there’s going to be discussion on it either way.

The only reason I brought it up after last nights game is because Farwell made it the topic of the post game show. I have no issue with that.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

I've enjoyed these last few games quite a bit. Win or lose going forward, it's just nice to see the effort and more players seem to be given the green light in regard to offensive creativity.

Bergkvist seems to be turning a corner, looks a lot more confident and the points have quietly been coming along well of late.

 

[dirty12]

True enough. We have elite OA’s while the Fronts do not. We have comparable 2nds and 3rds. But the strength of their team seems to be 18 years old and younger while ours is 17 years old and younger.

They look to be in better shape than us to make noise next year. It could be argued that this year we are in the same boat that they were in last year. They sold off large after a contending season and that’ll set them up pretty good for next year.

If we sell off this year it could set us up good for the next two.

The only reason I brought up Kingston was to critique Farwell’s reasoning that all of a sudden we should be buyers instead of sellers.

Of course, his opening to the post game show last night regarding this could have been just a way the roust the listenership to call in. That’s actually good radio.

call in show for an active OHL team fan base would be good radio, I think, I just might ‘tune-in’.
Good value for Damiani & Ingram would go a long way, but I think 2021-22 will be a good year for the rangers buy or sell this season. I would just want to keep the 2020 picks.

 

[Tim Wallach]

It's only 5 games, but McKenzie clearly identified what was wrong. The D is far more aggressive in our slot, the passing has improved drastically and there is constant motion in the offensive and and more pucks to the danger areas instead of brainless cycling.

Still some warts. Far too much going backwards with the puck and getting in trouble. But Vuk looks like a new player and a few others are reinvigorated as well. I still think it's a sell year but inprovement was critical for selling prices. Under McKee they were plummeting.

 

[Tim Wallach]

Sorry, double post.

 

[EvenSteven]

call in show for an active OHL team fan base would be good radio, I think, I just might ‘tune-in’.
Good value for Damiani & Ingram would go a long way, but I think 2021-22 will be a good year for the rangers buy or sell this season. I would just want to keep the 2020 picks.

Good value for those two would go a long way. Saginaw, who is supposed to be a top contender this year, won their game but allowed eight goals last night. They clearly need goaltending and top-flight defensive players. Damiani can provide solid two way play and Ingham would be just what the doctor ordered for them in net.

We should get good return for those two especially if part of the return is Tristan Lennox. Then we maybe sell off an OA and still be respectable this year.

 

[MediaCritic]

Good value for those two would go a long way. Saginaw, who is supposed to be a top contender this year, won their game but allowed eight goals last night. They clearly need goaltending and top-flight defensive players. Damiani can provide solid two way play and Ingham would be just what the doctor ordered for them in net.

We should get good return for those two especially if part of the return is Tristan Lennox. Then we maybe sell off an OA and still be respectable this year.

If Saginaw's issue is goaltending why would you think a Saginaw goaltender should be part of Kitchener's future? I think it remains to be seen if this is a buy or sell year for Kitchener but I'm certainly not making any decisions now. The Rangers have a top 5 goalie right now and I think that's reason enough to consider adding to the current roster. You seem to have a fascination with the past and the future and maybe that's keeping you from enjoying the present.

my only concern with the five game winning streak is that the only tough team has been Guelph. Sure the other teams are above the Rangers in the standings but should they be? Maybe this is the league just starting to level off. Kitchener might be a 3rd or 4th place team in this conference and that's what Mike Mackenzie will have to make his decision on. But I don't think you make that decision now. Enjoy the fine play!

 

[EvenSteven]

If Saginaw's issue is goaltending why would you think a Saginaw goaltender should be part of Kitchener's future? I think it remains to be seen if this is a buy or sell year for Kitchener but I'm certainly not making any decisions now. The Rangers have a top 5 goalie right now and I think that's reason enough to consider adding to the current roster. You seem to have a fascination with the past and the future and maybe that's keeping you from enjoying the present.

my only concern with the five game winning streak is that the only tough team has been Guelph. Sure the other teams are above the Rangers in the standings but should they be? Maybe this is the league just starting to level off. Kitchener might be a 3rd or 4th place team in this conference and that's what Mike Mackenzie will have to make his decision on. But I don't think you make that decision now. Enjoy the fine play!

Further on the notion that Saginaw should be in the market for a number one goalie:

I go to the last time we put together a blockbuster deal in a sell off season where the centrepiece of the return was a young, projected top shelf number one goalie.

To Windsor:
OA - D- Ben Shutron
00 - C- Scott Timmins
00 - G- Josh Unice

To Kitchener:
00 - G- Brandon Maxwell
OA - F- Jacob Lalonde
2nd ‘11
2nd ‘10
3rd ‘09

Lalonde was a throw in to give him a landing spot to finish the season.

The huge error by Spott in this trade was not getting conditionals on OA seasons for Timmins and Unice. There should have to be conditionals should either Damiani or Ingham return for OA seasons.

So, using that trade as sort of a blueprint for a proposed trade with Saginaw:

To Saginaw:
00 - C - Damiani
00 - G - Ingham

To Kitchener:
02 - G - Lennox
2nd ‘20
2nd ‘24
3rd ‘21
2nd ‘24*
3rd ‘24*
4th ‘24*

The conditionals are that if one of Damiani / Ingham returns for an OA season, we get the 3rd and 4th. If both come back, then we also get the 2nd.

Under today’s trade climate, this could be a fair trade all around. Sure it doesn’t look like a strong return for the OA seasons for those two players, but we are getting good return in Lennox. (We are also not sending a Shutron their way in this deal).

During the interview on yesterday‘s Farwell and Pope podcast, they interviewed Guelph’s George Burnett. During that interview, he as much as said that this is a rebuilding year and despite their early success this season, they would not be straying away from the plan. That led Farwell and Pope, and myself as well, to believe that they will continue to try and sell graduating players.

If that is the case, don’t be surprised if they capitalize on the surprising success of Nigel Daws this year. If they do that, and beat us to the punch moving him to a Saginaw or Sudbury before we get a chance to get into negotiations, we may be faced with either keeping Ingham and hoping he returns next year, or taking a reduced return for him.

Lennox projects to be a top goalie in this league. It’s a lot to ask for a 17-year-old to take on the task of backstopping a contending team. It’s not surprising that under the workload/responsibility that he’s been given, that he has faltered somewhat.

We need a goaltender of the future. Lennox can be that player. We have no viable future goaltender on the horizon on today’s roster or even among our drafted players. Justin Wu is rumoured to be an education first goalie. If that is the case, we can’t count on him reporting. Course, MacKenzie may have a better read on that situation than us. Perhaps will is expected to report next year. If that is the case, then this deal gets tossed out.

But if that’s not the case, and if we don’t address our goaltending at this trade deadline via this sort of deal, we will be faced with having to address it in the near future. That would be costly.


Bill, I am enjoying the present. Since the coaching change, the hockey has been much more entertaining. But I am looking at the big picture. If we want to have a shot at being a top contender, we need to have the asset base built up in order to allow us to make trades like we did in 17-18.

We don’t have enough assets to go all in this year to give us a real shot at the conference. We do not want to move any young players. So if we exhaust the 2nd and 3rd round picks that we have currently in the bank, it could cripple this franchise for the next couple years.

 

[GeoBlue]

Of course, his opening to the post game show last night regarding this could have been just a way the roust the listenership to call in. That’s actually good radio.

Then he is just putting on a facade and people don't know where he really stands. He could have the same effect by stating, "Rangers win 5 in a row but they should TRULY be selling". He would probably get just as many call ins.

 

[GeoBlue]

ya compared to a couple top teams, that doesn't make it "bare" in general, which is often said. It's also redundant to mention it every other day.

Some people don't see the strategy value behind the draft picks. Sure, we can use what little we have and get the one or two players that can make us a contender. Then a team like London sees this, and pounces with their mega array of picks and become MUCH better than we are and effectively neutralize our strategy and cripple our build for the next 3 or 4 years. When you are looking at your guns and what guns others have, one must always look to see what the available ammunition is as well.

 

[GeoBlue]

To Windsor:
OA - D- Ben Shutron
00 - C- Scott Timmins
00 - G- Josh Unice

To Kitchener:
00 - G- Brandon Maxwell
OA - F- Jacob Lalonde
2nd ‘11
2nd ‘10
3rd ‘09

I have wanted to mention this for some time now but since you brought it up, I will now. I NEVER liked the above trade. I think Unice had an incredible season and I did not think there was a need to bring in Maxwell. I feel we get taken on the entire package.

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

ya compared to a couple top teams, that doesn't make it "bare" in general, which is often said. It's also redundant to mention it every other day.

it’s not bare by any means. but it is near the point where they would only have (at best) 1 2nd over 5 years if they went all in. if they continue to add to it, they can have a surplus of OHL capable players going into the next 2 seasons. everyone will step up their game in the bottom half of the lineup because they know their spots not safe, and those who can’t crack a lineup spot can be sold off for more picks to use at the deadline

then again, why would MM ever go into the season expecting injuries and world juniors? “11 forwards will do!” seems to be his mentality

 

[EvenSteven]

I have wanted to mention this for some time now but since you brought it up, I will now. I NEVER liked the above trade. I think Unice had an incredible season and I did not think there was a need to bring in Maxwell. I feel we get taken on the entire package.

Based on the fact that Maxwell turned into what he turned into, and the fact that Timmins returned for an OA season and was instrumental in the Spitfires coming back to beat us after being down 0-3, you are right regarding that trade.

However, at the time, we were in a drastic sell off after being hit hard by the unexpected graduation of Azevedo and Boedker. Both those guys were expected back for 08-09, at least before the start of the 08 playoffs.

Unice’s numbers were good in 08 but there was a reason they traded for Steve Mason.

However, his numbers were nowhere near as good in 08-09. Outside of being a fan favorite, I didn’t remember a lot of heartache over him being traded to Windsor in that deal. Especially once it was determined that a)we were rebuilding now, and b) he was not guaranteed to play an OA season.

What I do remember is that I was very critical of the Mason/Tregunna deals. Sure it was because we got Mason from London. However, I was behind dealing for Sarnia’s Perugini if we absolutely had to upgrade in net. He would’ve been much cheaper than Mason and we likely don’t have to include Kadri in the deal. And I did not buy into the theory that we traded for Mason to keep a competitor from dealing for him. Our top competitor in the west that year was the Soo. And they were set in net already with Gajewski.

Then, had we gotten Azevedo/Boedker back for 08-09, and had Fowler reported here that year instead of giving up his rights in a roundabout way via the Tregunna deal that allowed Windsor to take him in the following draft, and, we would’ve still had Mashinter, Timmins, Unice, Kadri and likely Varone, we are likely as good in 08-09 as we were the year before.

Now that is some huge 20/20 hindsight. Lol. As they say, if it’s and buts were candies and nuts ..........

 

[AttackSound]

Any Rangers posters in attendance for tonight's game???

 

[bobber]

it was a question; by bare cupboard, do you mean not exactly a war chest of picks? 3-2nds, 9-3rds, 5-4ths, 2-*4ths through 2024 is not bare, imo.

2020 we have no 2nd. 2021 2nd. 2022 2nd. 2023 no 2nd. Two 2nds in four seasons is nothing. Lose those and get beat out in the first round MM might as well resign.

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

originally listed as Dickerson and Xhekaj out, but Josh Brown changed his mind and now it’s Fishman and Ottavainen.

Ottavainen must’ve tweaked the lower-body injury from earlier ?

 

[Tim Wallach]

This is the Vukojevic we all expected.

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

This is the Vukojevic we all expected.

makes me wonder if it really was McKee holding him back offensively. maybe trying to mould him into an 18 year old version of himself

 

[Tim Wallach]

I think there's little doubt McKee was holding these players back with insisting they all do the same conservative things in every situation. Mindless hockey with little focus on skill or individual talent.

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

as fun as this win streak has been to watch, I’m concerned that these wins are encouraging MM to buy with what little 2nds he has

 

[EvenSteven]

2020 we have no 2nd. 2021 2nd. 2022 2nd. 2023 no 2nd. Two 2nds in four seasons is nothing. Lose those and get beat out in the first round MM might as well resign.

At the deadline two years ago, we picked up Givani Smith, Logan Brown and Austin McEneny. Those acquisitions cost us our first round pick in Ladd, five second round picks And two 3rd round picks.

We already had Mascherin, Bunnaman, Sherwood, and Garreffa among our top six. We added Brown and Smith.

This year we have Meireles, Yantsis, Hawel and Damiani. We need two more Brown/Smith caliber forwards to put our top six where it was in 2017-18, post trade deadline.

I don’t want to hear about guys like Pinelli, Valade or MacDonnell being good enough to play a top six role this year because they’re not - not on a top contender. Just like Damiani and Meireles weren’t good enough two years ago - hence the Brown/Smith deals.

We only have three 2nds, nine 3rds and we aren’t dealing Pinelli.

Can someone tell me how we can contend this year?

I’m enjoying the winning streak right now. But I hope it doesn’t cloud MM’s view of the big picture.

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

also, in regards to this weekend, why did Fishman sit all 3 instead of Dickerson? IMO a 3 in 3 is the best time to rotate and I don't think they're exactly "showcasing" Graham Dickerson unless it's to an OJHL team

 

[bobber]

At the deadline two years ago, we picked up Givani Smith, Logan Brown and Austin McEneny. Those acquisitions cost us our first round pick in Ladd, five second round picks And two 3rd round picks.

We already had Mascherin, Bunnaman, Sherwood, and Garreffa among our top six. We added Brown and Smith.

This year we have Meireles, Yantsis, Hawel and Damiani. We need two more Brown/Smith caliber forwards to put our top six where it was in 2017-18, post trade deadline.

I don’t want to hear about guys like Pinelli, Valade or MacDonnell being good enough to play a top six role this year because they’re not - not on a top contender. Just like Damiani and Meireles weren’t good enough two years ago - hence the Brown/Smith deals.

We only have three 2nds, nine 3rds and we aren’t dealing Pinelli.

Can someone tell me how we can contend this year?

I’m enjoying the winning streak right now. But I hope it doesn’t cloud MM’s view of the big picture.

Exactly what I was thinking. This is one of those seasons where MM has to be proactive and think about the future. It's great to see that he has brought out the talent of this group that was being held back. One thing that really stands out to me is that players are not afraid to make a play with the puck. Before it was like a hot potato. Now they hang on to it with more confidence. It's like day and night. Still there is the opportunity this year to add assets and get younger.

 

[OhSheila]

3rd game in 3 days against a team that works their butts off in an arena where road points are tough to get.. They understandably had tired legs in the 3rd but Ingham was Ingham and was the difference in getting 2 points instead of 1.

I'm not bashing McKee, but some players seem to have a new life. Meireles, Vuks, Valade, Stepien, Bergkvist and Serpa all seem to be standing out more. McKee may have limited them and not seen them as capable of what they are capable of, or maybe he didn't trust them in certain situation. Vuks especially seems more confident offensively and defensively. Pinelli seems to be on the verge getting right back to his early season success. McDonnell played a strong game last night and continues to impress.

The team as a whole are way more aggressive on the puck and way more creative with it. They look more organized in their own end and are getting the puck out of the zone better. It seems the qualities and skills MM and the scouts saw in these guys when they drafted them are being used and developed a bit more.

Maybe McKee has his favourites and didn't see that others were capable of more? There just seems to be more life and spark on the ice and on the bench.

 

[bobber]

3rd game in 3 days against a team that works their butts off in an arena where road points are tough to get.. They understandably had tired legs in the 3rd but Ingham was Ingham and was the difference in getting 2 points instead of 1.

I'm not bashing McKee, but some players seem to have a new life. Meireles, Vuks, Valade, Stepien, Bergkvist and Serpa all seem to be standing out more. McKee may have limited them and not seen them as capable of what they are capable of, or maybe he didn't trust them in certain situation. Vuks especially seems more confident offensively and defensively. Pinelli seems to be on the verge getting right back to his early season success. McDonnell played a strong game last night and continues to impress.

The team as a whole are way more aggressive on the puck and way more creative with it. They look more organized in their own end and are getting the puck out of the zone better. It seems the qualities and skills MM and the scouts saw in these guys when they drafted them are being used and developed a bit more.

Maybe McKee has his favourites and didn't see that others were capable of more? There just seems to be more life and spark on the ice and on the bench.

One thing to add is the Rangers are taking more penalties. One reason for this is that they are throwing a few more hits. Last night in one sequence they threw more in 5 minutes than they did in weeks at home.