KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

Peter25

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Nikita Kucherov has played only 33 games in the CHL in his whole career. He is hardly a product of Canadian juniors.
 

Namejs

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Yes. And pigs can fly too.:laugh:
Jokerit will join the league next season and it is possible that Spartak will be merged with another team from Moscow.

If not the next season, it is bound to happen soon. :)

+VÃ¥lerenga
+2 foreign players per team
etc.

Russian hockey is stagnating/regressing. In a free market environment the number of Russian players would be comparable to that of American players in the NHL. If KHL wants to grow and be competitive, that's the only path they can take.
 

SoundAndFury

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Radulov, Burmistrov, Voynov, Khoklachev, Namestnikov, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Zadorov are playing, were playing or are on the verge of playing in the NHL. How many young players developed in Russia are there? When do you think Slepyshev will debut in the NHL with his 10 minutes of TOI with SU? Kosov with 9.40 per game? When Khoklachev or Kucherov would've debuted in the NHL if they stayed?

Khoklachev is a great, absolutely great example here. He was being buried by Spartak in the KHL instead of playing 20+ minutes per night on one of the best teams in the OHL. Can anyone say even more players need this kind of treatment?

Those guys you named, there is not one sure fire NHL guy who was a CHLer (Kucherov I wouldn't count, he got his KHL experience etc came over as a mature prospect). All the top stars still grew in Russia (Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Semin, Tarasenko, Anisimov, Kovalchuk never touch the CHL). Yakupov is young but his situation is in shambles, healthy scratching and low minutes because of his disastrous play. Kuznetsov will be next guy to make the jump right into the NHL. How many Russian Olympians played in the CHL? 2?

I am well acquainted with the Koko situation since he played in my home town and I was able to follow through the local press. He played well for Spartak and wanted to stay, Boston forced him against his will to return to Windsor as he was under contract with them and was only on loan to Spartak. He wanted to stay in Moscow and believed he made good progress there.

You are right that guys should not be playing less than 10 minutes a game, if they are, send them to the VHL. This will be a tougher challenge than the CHL. Kosov and Slepyshev are not elite prospects. How about we watch a guy like Buchnevic instead?
 
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kp61c

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Jokerit will join the league next season and it is possible that Spartak will be merged with another team from Moscow.

If not the next season, it is bound to happen soon. :)

+VÃ¥lerenga
+2 foreign players per team
etc.

Russian hockey is stagnating/regressing. In a free market environment the number of Russian players would be comparable to that of American players in the NHL. If KHL wants to grow and be competitive, that's the only path they can take.
so progress of russian hockey will sky rocket with an addition of some useless foreign clubs to the khl. good to know:yo:
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Radulov, Burmistrov, Voynov, Khoklachev, Namestnikov, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Zadorov are playing, were playing or are on the verge of playing in the NHL. How many young players developed in Russia are there?

How many developed in Russia? I'd say all of 'em are developed in Russia. Playing 1 year in a country won't get you developed by that country. As others said, Kucherov played half a season in America. How that is not developed in Russia is beyond me.

When do you think Slepyshev will debut in the NHL with his 10 minutes of TOI with SU? Kosov with 9.40 per game? When Khoklachev or Kucherov would've debuted in the NHL if they stayed?
Khoklachev is a great, absolutely great example here. He was being buried by Spartak in the KHL instead of playing 20+ minutes per night on one of the best teams in the OHL. Can anyone say even more players need this kind of treatment

Like Khokhlachev has achieved anything as by now.
 

Jussi

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How many developed in Russia? I'd say all of 'em are developed in Russia. Playing 1 year in a country won't get you developed by that country. As others said, Kucherov played half a season in America. How that is not developed in Russia is beyond me.

I think the point was where they took the crucial steps in their development.
 

SoundAndFury

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How many developed in Russia? I'd say all of 'em are developed in Russia. Playing 1 year in a country won't get you developed by that country. As others said, Kucherov played half a season in America. How that is not developed in Russia is beyond me.

Like Khokhlachev has achieved anything as by now.

I can't understand what do you gain by twisting the facts, Kucherov played 1 full season in the QMJHL and was in the AHL for a bit. And Khoklachev is a top-6 forward in the AHL meanwhile Tkachyov plays less than 10 minutes per night, Kosov less than 10 minutes per night, Burdasov less than 10 minutes per night, Slepyshev around 10 minutes per night, Nesterov played 12 minutes per night...

Golubev, Dvurechenskyi were integral parts of that gold winning Russian WJC team and both scored 6 points, where are they now? But no, these guys will never be talked about how destroyed talents because only CHL does that and they've never played there.

Anyway, this is an absolute nit-picking. Fact is that numerous mid-tier Russian prospects are getting destroyed (underdeveloped, to be more exact) on the KHL benches but still, CHL is the bad guy, everything in Russia is fine.
 
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Namejs

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so progress of russian hockey will sky rocket with an addition of some useless foreign clubs to the khl. good to know:yo:
First of all, the only useless clubs (in terms of quality/attendance/infrastructure/location&living conditions) in the KHL are currently based in Russia.

Second, no one cares about the progress of Russian hockey outside of Russia.

Third, progress of the Russian hockey programme has nothing to do with how many Russian ice hockey players there are in the KHL. Otherwise Russian hockey would grow best if no foreigners would be allowed in the league, which would make the existence of the KHL a bit of a paradox.

The bottom part of the hockey pyramid and the overall popularity of the sport is what's important.

As KHL is built from top down, the quality of the junior league system is dependent on how well organized are the pro teams.
 

Atas2000

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Make it 47 games. But anyway, I didn't say he's a product of CHL, I said he wouldn't be an impact player in the NHL at the age of 20 he is now without moving to CHL. And I think that's indisputable.

Are you even serious? He went to NA only because of the draft and as a complete player already. That is indisputable. In fact he would be a much better player if he could develop in the russian system for a couple more years, but the freaking NA GMs are so crazed about the "russian factor" players play it safe and got to the CHL for not being passed over and forgotten at the draft.
 

alce*

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First of all, the only useless clubs (in terms of quality/attendance/infrastructure/location&living conditions) in the KHL are currently based in Russia.

All foreign clubs, except Donbass and Barys have some money support from Russian sponsors. And sooner or later that support will be cut off. When your team will self support we will gladly hear all that *** about "quality", "attendance" and "locations". Lol.

Second, no one cares about the progress of Russian hockey outside of Russia.

Yes. And because of that your are completely wrong about KHL future. KHL isn't created to please some delusional foreign fans. It's created with goal to strengthen Russian hockey.

Third, progress of the Russian hockey programme has nothing to do with how many Russian ice hockey players there are in the KHL. Otherwise Russian hockey would grow best if no foreigners would be allowed in the league, which would make the existence of the KHL a bit of a paradox.

It's your opinion. FHR thinks differently. :laugh:
 

Atas2000

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First of all, the only useless clubs (in terms of quality/attendance/infrastructure/location&living conditions) in the KHL are currently based in Russia.

First of all here we are talking players' development, Stop that attendance talk. You manage to get one KHL arena per nation full and it's cool, but so what?

Location? Why should we have teams west of St.Petersburg? It's inconvenient for russian fans. I hope you get the sarcasm about your egocentric view of it.

Living conditions? You still believe they are bad in Russia? Maybe also the balalaika bears BS too?

Quality? Give me a break. How many Gagarin Cups did the non-russian teams win?

Yo-yo teams like Riga and Slovan are supposed to be "quality"? They have a good season, the they hit the bottom.

Second, no one cares about the progress of Russian hockey outside of Russia.

Okay, so your egoistic view is supposed to be the only one that is right? The why should we care about non-russian teams at all? Let them have their mediocre leagues. Noone in Russia cares.
 

obskyr

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In 1990-1995 Russia had plenty of good defensemen who could contribute offensively: Fetisov, Kasatonov, Tatarinov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Shiryayev, Zubov, Ozolins (Sorry Latvians but he is a Soviet product), Zhitnik, D.Mironov, Yushkevich, B.Mironov, Gonchar, Gusarov, Byakin, Kravchuk, Shendelev, Karpovtsev, Kasparaitis etc.

That is a group of 19 defensemen that you could be spread out for three very good national teams.

<...>

Now we have a group of players who include Voynov, Markov, Kulikov, Orlov, Tyutin, Nikitin and Belov. If you compare them to the list of 1990-1995 players you can pretty much see the difference in talent and in depth.

Why didn't you add, say, Kalinin, Nikulin or Semenov? Are they less talented than Karpovtsev and Yushkevich for not currently being in the NHL? If the KHL existed back in the days, Karpovtsev and Yushkevich would probably bolt like a lightning back to Russia. Are Zhitnik and Ozo Russian products too? I didn't know. Do you want me to compare the 1978-1990 born players players to the 1991-1995 bunch? That's not quite fair, but I still believe that, for instance, Zadorov is going to be more elite than any player on the current Olympic roster. I'm also sure that the late 80s kids had much less opportunities to develop than the later generations. I'm very well familiar with what they and their families could've gone through.
 

SoundAndFury

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In fact he would be a much better player if he could develop in the russian system for a couple more years,

Sure, worked out great for Kuznetsov :laugh:

When it comes to Kucherov, I don't really care, we can agree to disagree, not a point I was trying to make anyway since he falls into that category of elite prospects who most likely would've made it anyway through better or worse.
 

kp61c

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Sure, worked out great for Kuznetsov :laugh:

When it comes to Kucherov, I don't really care, we can agree to disagree, not a point I was trying to make anyway since he falls into that category of elite prospects who most likely would've made it anyway through better or worse.
hey, i'm regressing but it's not me it's the khl. it's too simpe don't you think?
Are Zhitnik and Ozo Russian products too?
he meant soviet products, it'd be moronic to argue that
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Sure, worked out great for Kuznetsov :laugh:

The only laughable thing here is wanting to jump to conclusions on Kuzya's career. Lol he's 21 years old, jeez, won WJC and WC gold medals. How many players accomplished that? If there's a thing I strongly disagree with is the so fashion nowadays Kuzya bashing. He is one hell of a player, just had a shaky season due to injuries. Even this season when he almost didn't play or played on one leg there were some games in which he played like a superstar. And in any case this is a kind of OT stuff, because if he departed to America, he'd do it to play in the NHL, definitely not in the CHL.
But haters gonna hate (especially KHL haters).
 

SoundAndFury

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The only laughable thing here is wanting to jump to conclusions on Kuzya's career. Lol he's 21 years old, jeez, won WJC and WC gold medals. How many players accomplished that? If there's a thing I strongly disagree with is the so fashion nowadays Kuzya bashing. He is one hell of a player, just had a shaky season due to injuries. Even this season when he almost didn't play or played on one leg there were some games in which he played like a superstar. And in any case this is a kind of OT stuff, because if he departed to America, he'd do it to play in the NHL, definitely not in the CHL.
But haters gonna hate (especially KHL haters).

I'm not a KHL hater and I think everyone around here knows that. But Kuznetsov regressed and holes in his game are humongous. He is one hell of a one-man-show, not one hell of a player. His two-way game at this point is below NHL level. It's not about injuries, one leg or two legs. It's about the way he plays. And I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just saying that staying in the KHL hurt his development and that's clear.

But I agree, this is OT stuff. I would love to hear at least one reply about the actual mistreatment of young players in the KHL.
 

Namejs

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All foreign clubs, except Donbass and Barys have some money support from Russian sponsors. And sooner or later that support will be cut off. When your team will self support we will gladly hear all that *** about "quality", "attendance" and "locations". Lol.
Every single club is supported by Russian governmental funds.

If that support will be cut off, the league will collapse instantly.

So, no, the support won't be cut off.

Yes. And because of that your are completely wrong about KHL future. KHL isn't created to please some delusional foreign fans. It's created with goal to strengthen Russian hockey.
The aim was to create an elite league that would be competitive on a global scale, instead of playing hockey in Siberian sheds between second-rate teams.

It's your opinion. FHR thinks differently. :laugh:
Who's FHR?
 

Namejs

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First of all here we are talking players' development, Stop that attendance talk. You manage to get one KHL arena per nation full and it's cool, but so what?
If no one watches your hockey team, the existence of said team is pointless+financially unfeasible.

Location? Why should we have teams west of St.Petersburg?
Because no one wants to play in Siberia or run-down arenas and live in shabby Russian hotels with cockroaches, while risking to be killed on a defective airplane every other day.

Living conditions? You still believe they are bad in Russia? Maybe also the balalaika bears BS too?
There are bears in Russia and balalaika is one of the traditional instruments, yes.

And the living conditions are very bad in some areas. Incomparable to North America or Europe. I'm talking about foreigners here. The ones who join Siberian/etc. clubs, have to be overpaid A LOT for them to come there.

Quality? Give me a break. How many Gagarin Cups did the non-russian teams win?
So are you implying that there are no other Russian clubs in the KHL apart from Moscow Dynamo or AK Bars?

Yo-yo teams like Riga and Slovan are supposed to be "quality"?
Compared to bottom-ranked Russian teams - yes.

Let them have their mediocre leagues. Noone in Russia cares.
I hope that happens one day. :)
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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I'm not a KHL hater and I think everyone around here knows that. But Kuznetsov regressed and holes in his game are humongous. He is one hell of a one-man-show, not one hell of a player. His two-way game at this point is below NHL level. It's not about injuries, one leg or two legs. It's about the way he plays. And I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just saying that staying in the KHL hurt his development and that's clear.

He's 21 for the God's sake. He'll go to the NHL soon and in 3 years we'll talk.
 

malkinfan

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He's 21 for the God's sake. He'll go to the NHL soon and in 3 years we'll talk.

I think he is right about Kuznetsov, but I wouldn't blame it on the KHL, its his own attitude about things IMO that has lowered his status. He will surely bounce back.

All those other players are mid tier prospects playing on top teams. They should opt to play in the VHL or go to a lesser team. Look at Lazarev, couldn't cut it in Atlant, now stars along side with another great home grown youngster Malykhin. Panarin developed through crappy Vityaz before jumping to stardom in SKA. Guy like Kosov was never a great prospect in the first place and is playing on a stacked team. No wonder.
 

SoundAndFury

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now, if we fill the teams with gastarbeiters, where will we play youngsters?

In the development leagues where they should be in the first place. The problem is there is no such thing in Russia. SKA is trying to turn VMF into a development team and it results into them sitting at the bottom of the table.
 

SoundAndFury

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I think he is right about Kuznetsov, but I wouldn't blame it on the KHL, its his own attitude about things IMO that has lowered his status. He will surely bounce back.

They should opt to play in the VHL or go to a lesser team. Look at Lazarev, couldn't cut it in Atlant, now stars along side with another great home grown youngster Malykhin. Panarin developed through crappy Vityaz before jumping to stardom in SKA. Guy like Kosov was never a great prospect in the first place and is playing on a stacked team. No wonder.

You are right in both cases. But regarding Kuznetsov, as much as it was his own faulty attitude, seemingly nobody really pressured him to change it. He was just allowed to do his own thing and be the biggest star in the league or at least conference or at least his town in the process.

Regarding VHL argument and the situation of guys like Kosov, maybe they would opt to play in the VHL but they are not allowed to due to the age limit. Because those stacked teams are forced to have a junior on the bench and they choose to have the best one because result matters. Sure, places like Vityaz or Novokuznetsk or even Cherepovets (places the guys you've mentioned like Panarin and Buchnevich played/play in) are great for youngsters to play, that's true, and the guys like Burdasov have chosen to sit on the bench/be scratched themselves but others who are trapped in teams like SKA or Ak Bars, are doomed.

Oh, and I just noticed you've edited my post written yesterday by mistake (I guess) instead of quoting it so I completely missed it.
 
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malkinfan

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You are right in both cases. But regarding Kuznetsov, as much as it was his own faulty attitude, seemingly nobody really pressured him to change it. He was just allowed to do his own thing and be the biggest star in the league or at least conference or at least his town in the process.

Regarding VHL argument and the situation of guys like Kosov, maybe they would opt to play in the VHL but they are not allowed to due to the age limit. Because those stacked teams are forced to have a junior on the bench and they choose to have the best one because result matters. Sure, places like Vityaz or Novokuznetsk or even Cherepovets (places the guys you've mentioned like Panarin and Buchnevich played/play in) are great for youngsters to play, that's true, and the guys like Burdasov have chosen to sit on the bench/be scratched themselves but others who are trapped in teams like SKA or Ak Bars, are doomed.

Oh, and I just noticed you've edited my post written yesterday by mistake (I guess) instead of quoting it so I completely missed it.

Yes, the rule needs to go, will help the situation IMO. On some of those teams there are numerous young guys fighting for that one spot as well, so guys are in the press box half the nights. SKA has Sigarev, Barabanov, Burdasov, Yudin all young guys. Wonder what there agents are telling them because it is not realistic for these guys to think they can even crack the 4th line on the regular basis.

BTW, sorry about the edit, it was mistake. I hit the edit button -then the quote thinking it would override the previous command - was wrong.
 

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