KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

[obskyr]

Myths again. He expects resposible defensive play. Is that uncommon?

Eh, he just practices passive hockey with 1.5 lines in offense and dilutes the talent for the sake of his "model".

Free your mind from nogomyach. It's poisoning you!

Oh god, what done. Kokarev, of course. All those Dynamos out there...

One could argue some ppl should give their hate a rest and give Bill's system a look. His system is as modern as it gets. He also works with the assets he has, not trying to let players do things they can't do by design. His "inappropriate on international level"(wtf is that? if it works, it works, if it doesn't, it won't on any level) style won him a WC with half the guys he'll have in the Olympics.

The BS about "disgraceful to russian hockey" is as childish as it gets. You also probably have no idea of the systems Tarasov, Chernyshov or Tikhonov played. You'd be surprised about how "defensive minded" and "outdated" they were.

Yes, it can't be helped. Ppl on hockey boards will always be smarter than the NT coach

I didnt say that I hate him. It's silly to shoot the pianist, he does what he knows best. And what he does isn't really suitable for best-on-best competitions and an NT of a country that doesn't produce elite defensive players in contrast to its offensive talent pool.

People on the boards will always express their opinions and they don't have to be coaches for that.

 

[obskyr]

It's an EHT break, time for stats.

Current KHL Top 20 (by points) includes
- 8 Russian players
- 4 players from other KHL countries (2 Czechs, 1 Slovak, 1 Kazakhstani)
- 2 players from other European countries (both are Finns)
- 6 North Americans (3 Canadians and 3 Americans)

Top 50
- 21 Russian player
- 10 players from other KHL countries (4 Slovaks, 3 Czechs, 1 Kazakhstani, 1 Latvian, 1 Belarusian)
- 8 players from other European countries (6 Finns, 1 Norwegian, 1 Swede)
- 11 North Americans (7 Canadians and 4 Americans)

Top 100
- 41 Russian player
- 20 players from other KHL countries (7 Czechs, 5 Slovaks, 3 Kazakhstanis, 3 Belarusians, 2 Latvians)
- 19 players from other European countries (13 Finns, 4 Swedes, 1 Norwegian, 1 German)
- 20 North Americans (12 Canadians and 8 Americans)

Current Top 5
1. Danis Zaripov (RUS) - 36 pts.
2. Sergei Mozyakin (RUS) - 36 pts.
3. Jan Kovar (CZE) - 30 pts.
4. Roman Cervenka (CZE) - 26 pts.
5. Ilya Kovalchuk (RUS) - 25 pts.

Additional details:

- 10 out of 41 top Russians, including Top 20 Burmistrov, Malykhin and Panarin, are under 24. There are only 2 non-Russian U24s in the current KHL Top 100, Jan Kovar and Teemu Hartikainen.

- 14 out of 20 Top 100 North Americans play in non-Russian teams. That number includes 5 Medvescak players. Other NA-heavy clubs are Barys (Bochenski, Dawes, Boyd) and Dinamo Riga (Wilson, Szczechura, Robinson).

- 12 out of 13 top 100 KHL Finns play in Russia, 3 of them (Salminen, Immonen, Hietanen) represent Torpedo.

- None of those 7 Czechs are Lev players, yet two of them (Netik and Vondrka) play for Bratislava. The fact that 3 out of 5 top Slovaks (Bartovic, Miklik, Mikus) are from Slovan makes that even more amusing.

- All 3 Kazakhstanis in the top 100 (Zhailauov, Upper, Starchenko) are from Barys. 2 out of 3 best Belarusians (Kostitsyn brothers) chose Russian clubs over Minsk where Kalyuzhny (second in the top) is playing. The best Latvian KHLer currently (Karsums) is a Dynamo Msk player, another Latvian in the top is Ozo.

 

[Peter25]

14 out of 20 top scoring defensemen in the KHL are currently not Russian: http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/244/pts_def/

 

[Peter25]

It also might be that Dinamo Minsk is the only non-Russian team to miss the playoffs this season. Slovan is currently out of the playoffs but they are playing well and might beat Lokomotiv, Severstal and Atlant for the last spot in the west.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I missed this discussion in its hay day but can't understand what was there to discuss about? Yes, that's true, it's obvious and it's supposed to be that way. Foreigners are signed to be a leaders of their teams and not role players.

 

[Peter25]

I missed this discussion in its hay day but can't understand what was there to discuss about? Yes, that's true, it's obvious and it's supposed to be that way. Foreigners are signed to be a leaders of their teams and not role players.

I don't agree. The foreigners are not "supposed" to dominate the KHL like they currently are. 14 out of top 20 scoring KHL-defensemen being not Russian is not acceptable.

I am not opposed to a strong foreign participation in the KHL. Vice versa. The KHL should get as many good players as possible regardless of their nationality.

But what the current situation is showing is the lack of good Russian players. Russia used to be a lot stronger hockey nation in the 2000's and especially in the 1990's than it is in the 2010's. Russia has never had as few good players as it has now.

The lack of Russian talent gives foreign players a dominating role in the KHL. I watched Torpedo play a few days ago and it was noticeable how much better the Torpedo's foreigners Immonen, Hietanen, Wolski and Salminen were than the rest of the team. Without this nucleus of foreign players Torpedo would be a terrible hockey team.

I think the level of play has gone down in the KHL from what it was in the last years of Superleague and first years of KHL (between 2005-2010). The KHL has expanded rapidly which has watered the league down and the number of good Russian hockey players has declined.

Currently the level of KHL is almost entirely dependent of foreign players. The top Russians (Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Nichushkin etc.) will leave for the NHL and there is not a lot of depth after them. Russia needs to be able to produce more good players to raise the level of play. Players who are not necessarily stars or NHL level players, but who can be stars in the KHL like Mozyakin, Morozov, Zaripov, Perezhogin, Popov etc. All of these guys are starting to get old and there are not many young guys coming up to replace them. So it is up to foreign players to fill the task.

 

[vorky]

@Peter25

and that is a reason why KHL needs less russian based clubs.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well yeah, you are partially right but basically you are saying that Russia should be better at hockey. Dah, everyone is striving to be as good as they can but if they are not - they are not. I didn't see Americans taking exceptions to the fact that NHL is dominated by Canadians. It's just how it is.

But you also overlook something. With foreigner limit in place a lot of top level Russians are playing limited roles on the top clubs. You say 14 out of 20 highest scoring Ds are foreigners but that's because they are getting 1st pair minutes on mid-tier clubs or are limiting Russian chances at the top-tier clubs (look what an increase in offense Antipin and Ibragimov saw after Lee was injured). You mentioned Torpedo and Hietanen is a poster boy for that, he plays 25 minutes per night and sees as much PP time as anyone. If you'd put guys like Korneyev, Nikulin, Osipov, Medvedev, Biryukov, Antipin, Chudinov etc. in that position they'd produce a lot, and I mean A LOT, more than they are producing now.

I think much more real problem in this case is that clubs like Torpedo can't hold onto players like Makarov or Varnakov and are forced to bring in foreigners instead meanwhile Varnakov who was a 40 point scorer with Torpedo (and with Makarov on his line) will be lucky to score 25 with Ak Bars.

Same with Igor Makarov for example, guy's a great offensive player - surely a 35+ point player with a right team - limited to 4th line minutes with SKA. Very few foreigners face the same problem, if they can't cut it in the top-6 they are just fired. Only Marek Kvapil and maybe few others are the exceptions.

 

[obskyr]

I don't agree. The foreigners are not "supposed" to dominate the KHL like they currently are. 14 out of top 20 scoring KHL-defensemen being not Russian is not acceptable.

...

But what the current situation is showing is the lack of good Russian players. Russia used to be a lot stronger hockey nation in the 2000's and especially in the 1990's than it is in the 2010's. Russia has never had as few good players as it has now.

Russia has always had a problem with defensemen and offensive minded defensemen in particular, it's an inherent flaw of its national school. The kids who play on the blue line in Russian hockey schools rarely even get around the puck. It's like the shortage of right handed players or lack of goalie coaches, those issues have been there for ages. The demand for top level players in the Russian championship is also unprecedented. So, yeah, it's much easier to hire a non-Russian defenseman, because top level Russian defensemen are a scarce commodity.

 

[Jussi]

Russia has always had a problem with defensemen and offensive minded defensemen in particular, it's an inherent flaw of its national school. The kids who play on the blue line in Russian hockey schools rarely even get around the puck. It's like the shortage of right handed players or lack of goalie coaches, those issues have been there for ages. The demand for top level players in the Russian championship is also unprecedented. So, yeah, it's much easier to hire a non-Russian defenseman, because top level Russian defensemen are a scarce commodity.

SKA coach Jukka Jalonen wrote in a column for Finnish sports magazine Urheilusanomat that in general, the Russian defenseman's job is to handle 1-1 situations in a defensive role, give a short pass to his defensive partner, shoot it out using the boards or send a long pass to a forward in the blueline. Because of this, a Russian defenseman is generally strong at defending but can't attack well against organized defenses due to inability to pass into tight spaces or dump the puck into the zone.

 

[Namejs]

The KHL is an international league. With hockey in Russia stagnating and the league expanding in Europe, it is bound to be dominated by non-Russian players, as long as the league exists.

It is likely that the number of Russian players will drop below 50% during the 2014/2015 season.

 

[Peter25]

Well yeah, you are partially right but basically you are saying that Russia should be better at hockey. Dah, everyone is striving to be as good as they can but if they are not - they are not. I didn't see Americans taking exceptions to the fact that NHL is dominated by Canadians. It's just how it is.

Russia should be better because they are weaker than they should be and because they have potential for a lot more.

There are no acceptable reasons for Russian hockey to decline like this. Hockey is a wealthy man's sport and Russia is wealthier than ever before. More Russian families should afford to have their kids play hockey than ever. Russia also has more hockey rinks than it has ever had. I believe Russia has currently twice as many hockey rinks as it did in the Soviet era.

It has to be said though that the horrible demographics of the 1990's is now starting to have an effect, because the age groups born in that decade are very small. But Russia still has far greater number of people in those age groups than Sweden, Finland and Czech Republic have in the same age groups.

The Soviet system is gone and cannot be rebuilt, but the continued decline of Russian hockey cannot be explained only with the collapse of Soviet system.

But you also overlook something. With foreigner limit in place a lot of top level Russians are playing limited roles on the top clubs. You say 14 out of 20 highest scoring Ds are foreigners but that's because they are getting 1st pair minutes on mid-tier clubs or are limiting Russian chances at the top-tier clubs (look what an increase in offense Antipin and Ibragimov saw after Lee was injured).

The foreigners are not getting more ice time than the rest of the team just because they are foreigners, but because they are the best players of their teams. Foreigners who don't contribute are usually fired from the team quite fast.

I took Torpedo as an example in my latest post. If you watch their game you can see that the line of Salminen, Immonen and Wolski is head and shoulders above the other lines. You can see it from their game and not just from the stats. Defenseman Hietanen is also head and shoulders above the rest of the defensemen in that team.

Viktor Antipin actually does get a lot of PP time even when Lee is playing. Antipin is usually Lee's partner in the point. Lee is outscoring him and Igragimov because he is just better than them.

Another example is Deron Quint. Quint will be 38 in two months and has not played in the NHL since the 2006-2007 season. Yet only one Russian defenseman (Koltsov) has more points than Quint this season.

The reality is that old North American has-beens can dominate the KHL especially if they are defensemen.

You mentioned Torpedo and Hietanen is a poster boy for that, he plays 25 minutes per night and sees as much PP time as anyone. If you'd put guys like Korneyev, Nikulin, Osipov, Medvedev, Biryukov, Antipin, Chudinov etc. in that position they'd produce a lot, and I mean A LOT, more than they are producing now.

Yes, I mentioned Hietanen and he is by far the best defenseman in that Torpedo team. It is the lack of good Russian defensemen that "forces" these Russian clubs to play foreigners in this kind of roles. Good for foreigners though. They are in great demand and get hefty paychecks.

From the players you mentioned only Nikulin could fill Hietanen's role in Torpedo. The rest are worse players than him. And I believe Hietanen is a tad better than the current version of Nikulin. Nikulin of 2005-2009 was certainly better than current Hietanen though. This is just another problem in Russian hockey. These best players are getting old and there are not many players coming up.

I think much more real problem in this case is that clubs like Torpedo can't hold onto players like Makarov or Varnakov and are forced to bring in foreigners instead meanwhile Varnakov who was a 40 point scorer with Torpedo (and with Makarov on his line) will be lucky to score 25 with Ak Bars.

I suppose that is a problem and I agree that the top Russian players should be spread out more evenly in the KHL. It would be better if Varnakov played for Torpedo and not for Kazan.

Another example is how SKA has been robbing Severstal (Tikhonov, Chudinov, Alexandrov, Shipacyov, Ketov...)

 

[Peter25]

Russia has always had a problem with defensemen and offensive minded defensemen in particular, it's an inherent flaw of its national school.

This is not true, if you are talking about both Russia and Soviet Union.

In 1990-1995 Russia had plenty of good defensemen who could contribute offensively: Fetisov, Kasatonov, Tatarinov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Shiryayev, Zubov, Ozolins (Sorry Latvians but he is a Soviet product ), Zhitnik, D.Mironov, Yushkevich, B.Mironov, Gonchar, Gusarov, Byakin, Kravchuk, Shendelev, Karpovtsev, Kasparaitis etc.

That is a group of 19 defensemen that you could be spread out for three very good national teams.

Who does Russia have now? Voynov is good/great. Markov is good but already 35. And then? Kulikov is someone who could be back in the KHL in a few years. Orlov might become good one day. Nikitin and Tyutin are regulars in Columbus and solid players, but not great nor stars. Belov of Oilers is sligtly below them.

Now we have a group of players who include Voynov, Markov, Kulikov, Orlov, Tyutin, Nikitin and Belov. If you compare them to the list of 1990-1995 players you can pretty much see the difference in talent and in depth.

 

[alce*]

It is likely that the number of Russian players will drop below 50% during the 2014/2015 season.

Yes. And pigs can fly too.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

This is not true, if you are talking about both Russia and Soviet Union.

In 1990-1995 Russia had plenty of good defensemen who could contribute offensively: Fetisov, Kasatonov, Tatarinov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Shiryayev, Zubov, Ozolins (Sorry Latvians but he is a Soviet product ), Zhitnik, D.Mironov, Yushkevich, B.Mironov, Gonchar, Gusarov, Byakin, Kravchuk, Shendelev, Karpovtsev, Kasparaitis etc.

That is a group of 19 defensemen that you could be spread out for three very good national teams.

Who does Russia have now? Voynov is good/great. Markov is good but already 35. And then? Kulikov is someone who could be back in the KHL in a few years. Orlov might become good one day. Nikitin and Tyutin are regulars in Columbus and solid players, but not great nor stars. Belov of Oilers is sligtly below them.

Now we have a group of players who include Voynov, Markov, Kulikov, Orlov, Tyutin, Nikitin and Belov. If you compare them to the list of 1990-1995 players you can pretty much see the difference in talent and in depth.

Well, I don't think there is the need to be so pessimistic. This is the result of the "hole" created by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Our recent WJC teams have been very good and therefore I think we're catching up with depth. I think that a problem is the CHL influence has on our players, they'd be better off at home in Russia. There are some exceptions, but I don't think that overall talking Russians are getting a lot from the CHL exodus we seen in the latest few years

 

[Jussi]

Well, I don't think there is the need to be so pessimistic. This is the result of the "hole" created by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Our recent WJC teams have been very good and therefore I think we're catching up with depth. I think that a problem is the CHL influence has on our players, they'd be better off at home in Russia. There are some exceptions, but I don't think that overall talking Russians are getting a lot from the CHL exodus we seen in the latest few years

You can't stop the kids ambitions. You cant' say for sure they would have been better off at all had they stayed. And for example in Zadorov's case, he's learning more things offensively in the CHL than he would have in Russia.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I think that a problem is the CHL influence has on our players, they'd be better off at home in Russia. There are some exceptions, but I don't think that overall talking Russians are getting a lot from the CHL exodus we seen in the latest few year

This argument was around forever but the funny thing is you can actually make a pretty good point about how staying in Russia busts Russian prospects:

Kitsyn - scored 19 points in 20 playoff games with Mississauga, decided to come back to Russia and career only spun downwards from that point - in the ECHL now.

Gusev - decided to stay, dominates VHL - gets 3rd line minutes with Yugra if he's lucky. Gets sent down from time to time.

Nesterov - stayed, was playing 10 minutes per game with Traktor at the crucial time of his development and it shows, hopefully he can still turn it around in the AHL but it doesn't look too good.

Shalunov - dominated MHL, stayed for two more years - can barely score in the ECHL this year, total bust.

Kosov - see Nesterov only replace Traktor with Magnitka and make it 8 minutes. Once believed to be a good NHL power forward type prospect now seems unlikely to ever develop offense and will most likely turn out to be a well skating big bodied 20 point KHL player.

When MHL/VHL/KHL system was created I actually believed it could work and was kind of optimistic but the reality is completely different.

MHL is a joke for a top-tier prospects, they can score at will in that league at the age of 18 and are playing against 20 year-old guys who won't ever turn pro. And it keeps expanding to lower the competitive level even further. Year in and year out there are the same competitive teams and the same bottom-dwellers good teams can just crank out of the park if they want to.

So then there's VHL. It's not a development league. It's the league where everyone has their own goals and no one could care less about developing the player who was sent there from nowhere. Teams are filled with veteran players so you won't see much playing time either and the name of the game is team defense there, not the best place for teenage scorer. Furthermore, some of the organizations are bush league and don't even have decent training facilities (the story of Czech coach how they didn't even have a training bikes in Klin and when he asked for them owner looked surprised and brought his own from home later because wife bought it to him and he doesn't really use it (and that's the place where Yevgeni Poltorak, #8 MHL scorer last year at the age 19, plays this year).

Or if you are good enough you'll be stapled to the KHL bench. Not making any money too because you can sit on the bench with junior contract. Bad news/good news there, because at least KHL coach will feel responsible for making a good player out of you and training conditions will be really good, in most cases.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

This argument was around forever but the funny thing is you can actually make a pretty good point about how staying in Russia busts Russian prospects:

Kitsyn - scored 19 points in 20 playoff games with Mississauga, decided to come back to Russia and career only spun downwards from that point - in the ECHL now.

Gusev - decided to stay, dominates VHL - gets 3rd line minutes with Yugra if he's lucky. Gets sent down from time to time.

Nesterov - stayed, was playing 10 minutes per game with Traktor at the crucial time of his development and it shows, hopefully he can still turn it around in the AHL but it doesn't look too good.

Shalunov - dominated MHL, stayed for two more years - can barely score in the ECHL this year, total bust.

Kosov - see Nesterov only replace Traktor with Magnitka and make it 8 minutes. Once believed to be a good NHL power forward type prospect now seems unlikely to ever develop offense and will most likely turn out to be a well skating big bodied 20 point KHL player.

When MHL/VHL/KHL system was created I actually believed it could work and was kind of optimistic but the reality is completely different.

MHL is a joke for top-tier prospects, they can score at will in that league at the age of 18 and are playing against 20 year-old guys who won't ever turn pro. And it keeps expanding to lower the competitive level even further. Year in and year out there are the same competitive teams and the same bottom-dwellers good teams can just crank out of the park if they want to.

So then there's VHL. It's not a development league. It's the league where everyone has their own goals and no one could care less about developing the player who was sent there from nowhere. Teams are filled with veteran players so you won't see much playing time either and the name of the game is team defense there, not the best place for teenage scorer. Furthermore, some of the organizations are bush league and don't even have decent training facilities (the story of Czech coach how they didn't even have a training bikes in Klin and when he asked for them owner looked surprised and brought his own from home later because wife bought it to him and he doesn't really use it (and that's the place where Yevgeni Poltorak, #8 MHL scorer last year at the age 19, plays this year).

Or if you are good enough who'll be stapled to the KHL bench. Not making any money too because you can sit on the bench with junior contract. Bad news/good news there, because at least KHL coach will feel responsible for making a good player out of you and training conditions will be really good, in most cases.

You shouldn't look at single cases. If you take 1 player - anything can happen.
Look, ever year the national team leaders go to the CHL. Then at the WJC play mostly MHL-KHL guys.

 

[ozo]

I've felt for a while that the most talanted Russian kids make the grade despite, not because of Russian development program (if we can call it as such).

 

[Jussi]

You shouldn't look at single cases. If you take 1 player - anything can happen.
Look, ever year the national team leaders go to the CHL. Then at the WJC play mostly MHL-KHL guys.

You do know that it goes both ways? That it is exactly what you should do, as each players's situation is different.

 

[SoundAndFury]

You shouldn't look at single cases. If you take 1 player - anything can happen.
Look, ever year the national team leaders go to the CHL. Then at the WJC play mostly MHL-KHL guys.

These are not single cases. These are full 2010 and 2011 NHL draft class below the top-tier talent (Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Kucherov, Namestnikov etc.) who decided to stay in Russia minus Daniil Sobchenko who has sadly passed away and Marchenko and Chudinov who were over-agers.

I didn't wanted to stick it to you but it's obvious how much better second-rounders like Khoklachev and Kucherov are because they left.

 

[Jussi]

I've felt for a while that the most talanted Russian kids make the grade despite, not because of Russian development program (if we can call it as such).

This goes for Finnish kids as well (when we had bad years).

 

[kp61c]

i don't understand this discussion at all. going to na at young age almost always results in players busting. there is a graveyard of russian players proving this. stop it already.

 

[SoundAndFury]

i don't understand this discussion at all. going to na at young age almost always results in players busting. there is a graveyard of russian players proving this. stop it already.

This discussion lives on because people like you refuse to admit the fact that there's as big of a graveyard of players who stay in Russia. Only the ones who stay in Russia are simply forgotten while the ones who tried their luck in the CHL are used to illustrate the fact how evil CHL destroys ever-so-talented Russian kids.

Sure it depends on a lot of things but for all the flack Russian fans are talking about the CHL it would be nice to see them admit flaws of their own system and acknowledge the fact that there's no way someone like Kucherov is as good of a hockey player as he is now if he stayed with CSKA.

 

[kp61c]

This discussion lives on because people like you refuse to admit the fact that there's as big of a graveyard of players who stay in Russia. Only the ones who stay in Russia are simply forgotten while the ones who tried their luck in the CHL are used to illustrate the fact how evil CHL destroys ever-so-talented Russian kids.

Sure it depends on a lot of things but for all the flack Russian fans are talking about the CHL it would be nice to see them admit flaws of their own system and acknowledge the fact that there's no way someone like Kucherov is as good of a hockey player as he is now if he stayed with CSKA.

ok, how many players developed in na are playing in the nhl now? and stop with this kucherov nonsense, it's not like he went to nhl with a bust written all over him.