KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Faterson]

The Concorde first went into service in 1976 and went out of service in the 2000s. So redo your math.

Try following the news instead of sticking to old headlines from the 2000s. There has very much been recent foray into radically reducing international and intercontinental flight times. Just because the Concorde failed decades ago doesn't mean that will remain the status quo until the end of time.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Try following the news instead of sticking to old headlines from the 2000s. There has very much been recent foray into radically reducing international and intercontinental flight times. Just because the Concorde failed decades ago doesn't mean that will remain the status quo until the end of time.

I work in aerospace. The closest anyone is to supersonic travel is Boom out of Florida. Their testing starts in 2027. That's the estimated date because that is when the FAA and other international regulatory systems like EASA and CAAC are supposed to start reviewing the regulations that make it illegal to break the speed of sound due to noise thresholds which barely allow for current engines like CFM56 and V2500. And they're supposing they'll start then because they were asked to and the FAA and other regulatory bodies asked them to and they were told to get lost.

And even then, the maximum number of passengers is 75 so unless teams buy this ridiculously expensive plan of which they're only estimating will be build in the low single digits internationally, they're not going to be flying in this manner.

Where were all the teams flying Concorde back when Concorde was a normal way to fly? No regional league formed. The RSL was still the RSL, which is pretty much the KHL adding in a handful of new teams.

Find a new reason you think a super league will form. Supersonic travel is a laughable reason, find something that isn't as easy to prove wrong.

 

[alko]

I work in aerospace. The closest anyone is to supersonic travel is Boom out of Florida. Their testing starts in 2027. That's the estimated date because that is when the FAA and other international regulatory systems like EASA and CAAC are supposed to start reviewing the regulations that make it illegal to break the speed of sound due to noise thresholds which barely allow for current engines like CFM56 and V2500. And they're supposing they'll start then because they were asked to and the FAA and other regulatory bodies asked them to and they were told to get lost.

And even then, the maximum number of passengers is 75 so unless teams buy this ridiculously expensive plan of which they're only estimating will be build in the low single digits internationally, they're not going to be flying in this manner.

Where were all the teams flying Concorde back when Concorde was a normal way to fly? No regional league formed. The RSL was still the RSL, which is pretty much the KHL adding in a handful of new teams.

Find a new reason you think a super league will form. Supersonic travel is a laughable reason, find something that isn't as easy to prove wrong.

I hope, we all will be here in year 2050. And in good mental condition.

 

[Exarz]

I really can't believe this thread has come to the topics of science fiction regarding future expansions

 

[Rigafan]

The Toronto Wolfpack, Rugby League Team managed cross Atlantic league participation with the need for Concorde. It just needs some good funding and good schedule planning to make it happen, just like the NFL will no doubt be in London in the next decade.

Toronto Wolfpack - Wikipedia

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I really can't believe this thread has come to the topics of science fiction regarding future expansions

I really can't believe this thread has come to the topics of science fiction as failed attempts to justify future expansion...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The Toronto Wolfpack, Rugby League Team managed cross Atlantic league participation with the need for Concorde. It just needs some good funding and good schedule planning to make it happen, just like the NFL will no doubt be in London in the next decade.

Toronto Wolfpack - Wikipedia

You mean the same rugby league team that experience financial difficulties most of their existence due to trans-Atlantic travel, withdrew from the super league, were then removed by the league, and now play in a North American rugby league?

Are you sure you meant to use Toronto Wolfpack as an example of a team successfully navigating trans-Atlantic travel?

 

[Faterson]

Supersonic travel is a laughable reason

Supersonic travel is your strawman. No one says that supersonic travel is the only means and precondition for establishing world-wide sports leagues. If you believe that traveling will forever remain in future decades and centuries what it is today in 2021, with no improvements worth mentioning in sight, that is what I'd call laughable.

The KHL managed/manages to integrate teams from across 9 time zones just fine, without any supersonic travel. The distance between the KHL's western-most and eastern-most teams is far greater than between European teams and the NHL's teams on the American East Coast, for example. Let alone the distance between the KHL's eastern-most teams and the NHL's West Coast teams – they're practically neighbors.

So, it will mostly come down to money and willingness, when it comes to creating a world-wide sports league, not supersonic travel, although reducing travel times would certainly help in furthering such concepts. And I'm confident that such projects will be conceived and they'll ultimately succeed in the coming decades.

 

[vorky]

As I see it, the NHL does not have the financial & human resources & willingness to expand to Europe. All they need is to keep draining the European players´ market, so the European clubs & leagues need to be as weak (financially) as possible. The NHL does not want to develop the European hockey scene because the NHL wants to keep the European clubs & leagues as their dependant entities aka colonies.

This thread is about the KHL, so focus on this. I will sum up the recent development.

1.European clubs keep calling to the KHL HQ with their proposals, asking for the KHL´s conditions.

2.The pandemic hinders the talks

3.The KHL´s conditions are high enough (unreachable) for many European clubs. Among others, the KHL wants from prospective clubs to guarantee the budget for three seasons as minimum. So, as minimum as 40-50 million euro.

4.Likely, some prospective club/s from Switzerland having the issue with the National League & the Swiss Hockey Federation´s guarantee to that club confirming the possible comeback scenario. In case of the comeback that Swiss club/s want to re-join the Swiss hockey system in the National League, so the same league (tier) the club would leave to join the KHL. They do not want to re-join from Swiss lower tiers. Anything can happen, so the Swiss club/s needs that guarantee. This is an object of negotiations with the Swiss hockey organs now. Of course, the result of the negotiations is not revealed publicly.

5. All waiting for the KHL Board of Directors meeting in September.

 

[vorky]

Admiral will have the new ice surface & boards this summer. The KHL commision visited Admiral´s arena a few weaks ago & identified some defects resulting in inevitability to instal the new ice surface & boards. ... conditions are conditions.

 

[cska78]

Admiral will have the new ice surface & boards this summer. The KHL commision visited Admiral´s arena a few weaks ago & identified some defects resulting in inevitability to instal the new ice surface & boards. ... conditions are conditions.

What about players...when will they sign them?

 

[vorky]

What about players...when will they sign them?

When they get the access to KHL CIB. I do not expect anything before June 8.

 

[Rigafan]

You mean the same rugby league team that experience financial difficulties most of their existence due to trans-Atlantic travel, withdrew from the super league, were then removed by the league, and now play in a North American rugby league?

Are you sure you meant to use Toronto Wolfpack as an example of a team successfully navigating trans-Atlantic travel?

Well they lasted 3 seasons, were decent enough. It shown it can be done but obviously, as we found out, it needs good planning and funding long term.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Well they lasted 3 seasons, were decent enough. It shown it can be done but obviously, as we found out, it needs good planning and funding long term.

Rigafan... experiencing severe financial complications for the entirety of their short existence, trying to leave the league, the league booting them, and now playing back over there in North America league should not inspire any hopes of success... if your argument is "it was done," find a new one because simply because it happened doesn't inspire hope. Look at what happened.

 

[vorky]

Some journalists claim that René Fasel will work for the KHL after his IIHF mandate run outs. It remains to be seen if he will be formally elected to the KHL Board of Directors or working behind-the-scenes as some advisor. He does not want to work on day-to-day operations anymore.

Fasel is a proponent of a strong European league with the KHL as the Eastern Conference.

Just curious if he is in Moscow next week.

 

[Rigafan]

Some journalists claim that René Fasel will work for the KHL after his IIHF mandate run outs. It remains to be seen if he will be formally elected to the KHL Board of Directors or working behind-the-scenes as some advisor. He does not want to work on day-to-day operations anymore.

Fasel is a proponent of a strong European league with the KHL as the Eastern Conference.

Just curious if he is in Moscow next week.

KHL as Eastern Conference? I'm sure there are no plans yet but would that mean, the whole KHL as the Eastern Conference or just a certain amount of teams will remain in the KHL?

 

[vorky]

KHL as Eastern Conference? I'm sure there are no plans yet but would that mean, the whole KHL as the Eastern Conference or just a certain amount of teams will remain in the KHL?

Fasel says "sooner or later a big international hockey league will appear in Europe. Perhaps, it will be an integral part of the KHL, its western conference."

So, earlier I paraphrased his words.

If you follow this process closely, you know that Fasel says the same visions as the KHL leadership.

First of all, Russians plan for a long period of time, they have a time, they do not need to realize all their visions within a few years. As we know, this fundamental misunderstanding is seen with judging of the KHL expansion because some of us wants to see the results (aka teams joining) right now. That is not the Russian way.

So, what does the KHL say? They would like to see the strong league in Eurasia with headquarter in Moscow. You know, it is important who will run the show - Moscow or Zurich/London whatever? Some time ago, the KHL said some interesting vision, which went unnoticed (but I wrote about it) - they can imagine a league with de-facto separated conferences/divisions, the western (Europe) & eastern (former CCCP & Russia & Asia). The teams of both conferences would not meet in the regular season, or just one away trip to the closest cities would be made (Moscow, St.Petersburg or perhaps Kazan). I noticed the KHL also saying about three divisions as a scenario (Europe, Central/Western Russia & Siberia/Asia). Only neighbouring divisions would meet, so European division vs Central/Western Russian, so no travelling Helsinki-Vladivostok. This is exactly what Fasel says. Btw, one problematic element would be eliminated, the European clubs would not travel behind Urals & not meeting with so-called unatractive (for European fans) Russian teams like Amur, Sibir or Metallurg with Avangard. So, noting it is just a vision now, two/three separated leagues - European & Russian & Siberia/Asia - would be created but run from one headquarter. It remains to be seen where this headquarter will be located.

One more time, it is just a vision, a lot of work to be done. Especially with financing & infrastructure. Europe is miles behind Russia.

 

[Rigafan]

Fasel says "sooner or later a big international hockey league will appear in Europe. Perhaps, it will be an integral part of the KHL, its western conference."

So, earlier I paraphrased his words.

If you follow this process closely, you know that Fasel says the same visions as the KHL leadership.

First of all, Russians plan for a long period of time, they have a time, they do not need to realize all their visions within a few years. As we know, this fundamental misunderstanding is seen with judging of the KHL expansion because some of us wants to see the results (aka teams joining) right now. That is not the Russian way.

So, what does the KHL say? They would like to see the strong league in Eurasia with headquarter in Moscow. You know, it is important who will run the show - Moscow or Zurich/London whatever? Some time ago, the KHL said some interesting vision, which went unnoticed (but I wrote about it) - they can imagine a league with de-facto separated conferences/divisions, the western (Europe) & eastern (former CCCP & Russia & Asia). The teams of both conferences would not meet in the regular season, or just one away trip to the closest cities would be made (Moscow, St.Petersburg or perhaps Kazan). I noticed the KHL also saying about three divisions as a scenario (Europe, Central/Western Russia & Siberia/Asia). Only neighbouring divisions would meet, so European division vs Central/Western, so no travelling Helsinki-Vladivostok. This is exactly what Fasel says. Btw, one problematic element would be eliminated, the European clubs would not travel behind Urals & not meeting with so-called unatractive (for European fans) Russian teams like Amur, Sibir or Metallurg with Avangard. So, noting it is just a vision now, two/three separated leagues - European & Russian & Siberia/Asia - would be created but run from one headquarter. It remains to be seen where this headquarter will be located.

One more time, it is just a vision, a lot of work to be done. Especially with financing & infrastructure. Europe is miles behind Russia.

Thanks for the information. I'll keep an eye on what Fasel does then. If he does join the KHL then im sure they will use him to negociate with Europe better, he's a good link.

I also think, as you said the Russians have time, that many people forget how young the KHL is as a league. Sure many things have happened but its a new project, many things will happen until it finds its path.

 

[Faterson]

I liked Slovan playing against teams from Siberia or traveling almost to Alaska for a regular season KHL game. Why not? They should definitely keep that in the schedule. Any team can handle that if there is only one such far-flung trip per season.

Once a year is OK – it's like traveling to the World Championships or Olympics taking place overseas, after all. It increases diversity nicely.

It's too boring to keep playing against the same teams over and over again. More frequently, definitely. But not 8 times per season, at the expense of playing against teams from the Far East.

 

[vorky]

I liked Slovan playing against teams from Siberia or traveling almost to Alaska for a regular season KHL game. Why not? They should definitely keep that in the schedule. Any team can handle that if there is only one such far-flung trip per season.

Once a year is OK – it's like traveling to the World Championships or Olympics taking place overseas, after all. It increases diversity nicely.

It's too boring to keep playing against the same teams over and over again. More frequently, definitely. But not 8 times per season, at the expense of playing against teams from the Far East.

I fully agree with you. I just wrote it as one scenario. The KHL HQ proposed such a model to reduce the travelling costs, but the clubs voted against - they want to play each other at least twice per regular-season. If I remember this vision correctly, there was a schedule on the table when Jokerit (Slovan) & the Far East teams would meet just once a season, one year in Europe & the other year in the Far East. The clubs voted against the idea for now. But they can discuss it again when more European clubs will be in the league.

You are a veteran of this boards, so you know. One argument against the KHL, from European fans on this forum, is the KHL´s diversity. The Europeans do not want to play against clubs from Ural, Siberia because they do not know these clubs, they can not pronounce the names & other nonsense. So, if the league divided the teams into separated divisions, the problem would be solved. But fans like you would dislike it.

This "not travelling beyond Urals" argument has a long tradition in the European hockey circles, perhaps it is some mental or ideological issue. Just reminding you the story with Metallurg Magnitogorsk & the IIHF European Hockey League back in 1990s. The Europeans tried to exclude Magnitka from the competition because the city is located in Asia. The Russians had to prove them that they are the European city. Finally, Magnitka won the title. You know, the very same argumentation has been heard from the Champions Hockey League recently. That is a very elitist point of view by Europeans, even though they try to communicate it as diversity & openness to everyone.

 

[Albatros]

It's difficult to see what benefit there could be for European teams playing in Magnitogorsk. It has zero appeal compared to any other option.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Fasel just says what he needs to say, sadly his and vorky's opinions have the same amount of merit to them at this point.

 

[Faterson]

It's difficult to see what benefit there could be for European teams playing in Magnitogorsk. It has zero appeal compared to any other option.

Are you kidding?! Some of the best hockey games I've ever seen (including in person), have been Slovan's games against Magnitogorsk, both at home and away. To see Malkin depart the ice with a stunned look on his face, after Magnitka lost to Slovan, was priceless (and I was there to witness that in row 13 or so).

There will always be maximum appeal to play against some of the best hockey teams on this planet, and Magnitogorsk is definitely among them. In fact, any KHL team is among them, by virtue of playing in the KHL.

Any league worth its name should ensure that every team plays against every other team in that league at least twice every season: home & away. That's it. Anything less is parody and mental sloth. (And NHL has its issues with this, too, but they've lately recognized that it must be so.)

 

[Albatros]

Sounds like it took NHL players under exceptional circumstances for you to be interested in Magnitogorsk either. Their current top scorer is Taylor Beck, however. And that's better than most KHL teams have to offer, the glory days of the league are long gone. If there's going to be Russian involvement in a European league someday it will be only a handful of Russian teams in major cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg. Central European teams touring Siberia isn't going to be sustainable.

 

[Faterson]

Sounds like it took NHL players under exceptional circumstances for you to be interested in Magnitogorsk

Definitely not. I'm interested in Magnitogorsk (or any Finnish, Swedish or Swiss team) as long as it's a league competitor for my team, Slovan. Otherwise, I'm not interested in them. Makes sense, huh?

Central European teams touring Siberia isn't going to be sustainable.

That's only your opinion, Debbie Downer. It definitely can be sustainable. Making a trip of Siberia and the Far East once per season totally is sustainable, and it's also attractive from hockey fans' point of view.