Ansar Khan: Khan thinks Zetterbergs done. Zadina, Rasmussen and Hronek to make the season-opening roster

[jkutswings]

Red Wings' Zetterberg says he'll miss training camp

Hopefully he somehow gets a proper send-off, sooner or later.

 

[lhsgolf19]

 

[DB0SS]

Mantha - Larkin - Zadina
Vanek - Neilsen - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Athanasiou - Rasmussen
Helm - Glendening - Abdelkader

This combo makes the most sense to me

 

[TheMule93]

getting hughes would be freakin amazing.

 

[lhsgolf19]

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

.His game translates very well to being a center as a pro. I’m not worried about him starting out as a winger as a 19 year old. Just like I always saw Larkin ending up back in the middle and said as much.

As for your last part, personally I had them ranked far apart so I would have went that direction. But we will see what happens. We got our dynamic winger this year instead, who I like even better.

I don't know man, I have doubts about him being able to make offensive contributions as an NHL center. I was never concerned with that with regard to Larkin.

 

[jkutswings]

As if this front office and coaching staff would even consider it.

I really wish they would, assuming Zadina isn't leaving them no choice with his level of play, but the Wings want to win every last meaningless game they can.

They must think the Larkins and Manthas of the world might wilt like a delicate flower in the desert, the moment they lose another 5-10 more games than last year. "Competitive, robble robble robble... Winning culture, robble robble..."

 

[Pavels Dog]

As if this front office and coaching staff would even consider it.

I really wish they would, assuming Zadina isn't leaving them no choice with his level of play, but the Wings want to win every last meaningless game they can.

They must think the Larkins and Manthas of the world might wilt like a delicate flower in the desert, the moment they lose another 5-10 more games than last year. "Competitive, robble robble robble... Winning culture, robble robble..."

If Zadina is NHL ready, not playing him because we’re afraid of losing a few % in a draft lottery would be so dumb.
The bigger question is likely if he even is ready to make an impact.

 

[kliq]

If Zadina is NHL ready, not playing him because we’re afraid of losing a few % in a draft lottery would be so dumb.
The bigger question is likely if he even is ready to make an impact.

Well, its not just that, they would also avoid burning the first year of his entry level contract....right? One can argue that it's a waste to burn year 1 during a season that we going to be near the bottom of the standing. With that said, I dont want to stunt his development, and you want him to develop chemistry with Larkin, Mantha and co.

Its a tough one, but I would lean towards putting him on the roster.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Well, its not just that, they would also avoid burning the first year of his entry level contract....right? One can argue that it's a waste to burn year 1 during a season that we going to be near the bottom of the standing. With that said, I dont want to stunt his development, and you want him to develop chemistry with Larkin, Mantha and co.

Its a tough one, but I would lean towards putting him on the roster.

But his next contract could also be bigger if he starts off on a better team and after an extra development year. An ELC of 40, 60 and 80 point seasons leads to a cheaper deal than one with 60, 80 and 90 point seasons.

Just play him where he belongs. He won’t be our last ELC player.

 

[SCD]

If Zadina is NHL ready, not playing him because we’re afraid of losing a few % in a draft lottery would be so dumb.
The bigger question is likely if he even is ready to make an impact.

The team certainly has the contract power to slide him.

However, if he shows to be NHL ready and he is put in the AHL to slide his contract, that has a huge impact on his lifetime earning potential. He would lose almost a million this year and what ever the difference would be in his ELC and his first RFA contract...possibly 4-6 mil. Not exactly the way to build a relationship with a potential cornerstone player.

 

[obey86]

From Yahoo today:

Things look awfully grim for the Detroit Red Wings

"...it’s worth noting that when Zetterberg was on the ice this season, the Red Wings outscored their opponents by 25, and when he was off the ice, they got outscored by 65."

Ouch.

If this was the case, shouldn't Z have had a +/- of +25? He was +1. And if they are including PP goals in the total then it's stupid because he didn't also play the PK. Someone like Mantha, who had a similar +/- and played on the PP and not PK, probably has a similar on ice goal difference.

 

[obey86]

If he doesn't play, we're really going to see this team bottom out.

Went from Z/D/Lidstrom to none of them and no one even close to replacing them.

We've all been saying it for a couple years. "This team is bad. If Z goes down for any length of time you're going to see just how bad it is."

We're all going to see soon enough.

I don't think the Wings will be much worse without Z. A single player can only affect so much when it comes to the team's place in the standings. For example, the 03-04 Penguins finished dead last in the NHL. They drafted Crosby, he put up 102 points, and they finished 2nd to last in the NHL. I think the Wings will be really bad this year with Z or without Z, and the difference in the standings will be negligible.

 

[obey86]

getting hughes would be freakin amazing.

and then signing Erik Karlsson and Tyler Seguin as free agents.

 

[jkutswings]

If Zadina is NHL ready, not playing him because we’re afraid of losing a few % in a draft lottery would be so dumb.
The bigger question is likely if he even is ready to make an impact.

Which...is why I specifically said, "assuming Zadina isn't leaving them no choice with his level of play". If the kid is obviously ready, he should play. But if it's still unclear, he could possibly benefit from some or all of another season before NHL play, and it helps cement a top draft pick, that's fine too.

 

[izlez]

As if this front office and coaching staff would even consider it.

The coaching staff and front office would never consider NOT rushing the kids into the NHL?

I can never keep track of what we're supposed to hate them for.

 

[jkutswings]

The coaching staff and front office would never consider NOT rushing the kids into the NHL?

I can never keep track of what we're supposed to hate them for.

I'm saying that this front office would never consider tanking a season. If Zadina is a slam-dunk to play, them play him. But if there's any doubt, I'd be happy to flush this season in the name of the best draft pick possible, which is what I don't see Detroit ever getting on board with, even for a draft as hyped as this one.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

As if this front office and coaching staff would even consider it.

I really wish they would, assuming Zadina isn't leaving them no choice with his level of play, but the Wings want to win every last meaningless game they can.

They must think the Larkins and Manthas of the world might wilt like a delicate flower in the desert, the moment they lose another 5-10 more games than last year. "Competitive, robble robble robble... Winning culture, robble robble..."

You and I don't agree on much. This is no different.

If Zadina is NHL ready, he plays. If he isn't, he goes to the AHL. The Wings aren't going to jerk around their highest profile prospect since the 90s and first, essentially because I'm pretty certain they'd have taken Zadina had they won the third pick, top 3 pick since Primeau to try to get slightly better draft lottery odds.

Any moves with Zadina will be made with Zadina's development in mind, not hoping and praying that we have a 16% chance at Hughes instead of a 14.8%.

And to the last point, it's not about thinking that they'll wilt. You just don't go to games trying to lose. You don't build a team trying to lose. It pisses me off almost more than I can understand how teams blatantly tanking seasons to hope and pray they get a player who like five years from when they take him will make it worth it has become the norm and not something a rudderless team without a plan does. Tanking and hoping for lottery picks is what a garbage front office like Edmonton does. It isn't a team building strategy... it is "oh my god, I hope we get lucky"

I'm saying that this front office would never consider tanking a season. If Zadina is a slam-dunk to play, them play him. But if there's any doubt, I'd be happy to flush this season in the name of the best draft pick possible, which is what I don't see Detroit ever getting on board with, even for a draft as hyped as this one.

As they well shouldn't. I'm glad that you're happy with "flushing the season" when it isn't your 100M+ organization. They flush a season and finish with the 16% chance at the top pick. They do exactly what it is they're doing (bring up Zadina and actually try to win hockey games) and they likely finish bottom 3-5 anyway. Get a 13-14% chance at the top pick and a 30-35% chance at top 3.

You're talking about giving up the best development for your players over what amounts to a few percentage points for the top pick and maybe 8-10 for getting a top 3 pick. With the way the lottery works, all you need to be is bottom 5 in the league and you have a damn good chance at one of those picks. It actually kinda hurts you to be the absolute worst in the league.

 

[jkutswings]

You and I don't agree on much. This is no different.

If Zadina is NHL ready, he plays. If he isn't, he goes to the AHL. The Wings aren't going to jerk around their highest profile prospect since the 90s and first, essentially because I'm pretty certain they'd have taken Zadina had they won the third pick, top 3 pick since Primeau to try to get slightly better draft lottery odds.

Any moves with Zadina will be made with Zadina's development in mind, not hoping and praying that we have a 16% chance at Hughes instead of a 14.8%.

And to the last point, it's not about thinking that they'll wilt. You just don't go to games trying to lose. You don't build a team trying to lose. It pisses me off almost more than I can understand how teams blatantly tanking seasons to hope and pray they get a player who like five years from when they take him will make it worth it has become the norm and not something a rudderless team without a plan does. Tanking and hoping for lottery picks is what a garbage front office like Edmonton does. It isn't a team building strategy... it is "oh my god, I hope we get lucky"



As they well shouldn't. I'm glad that you're happy with "flushing the season" when it isn't your 100M+ organization. They flush a season and finish with the 16% chance at the top pick. They do exactly what it is they're doing (bring up Zadina and actually try to win hockey games) and they likely finish bottom 3-5 anyway. Get a 13-14% chance at the top pick and a 30-35% chance at top 3.

You're talking about giving up the best development for your players over what amounts to a few percentage points for the top pick and maybe 8-10 for getting a top 3 pick. With the way the lottery works, all you need to be is bottom 5 in the league and you have a damn good chance at one of those picks. It actually kinda hurts you to be the absolute worst in the league.

Well of course we don't agree. But that doesn't mean I ever said to mess with Zadina's development. I said, if it's obvious he's ready, play him. If not, don't. That's exactly what they've been doing with prospects for the last few years, so I don't see how this is any different.

And there's no way we're going to see eye to eye on the lottery, because we approach sports in general from radically different angles. You're probably going to watch a significant part of the regular season, watching for things like, is Larkin taking the next step, how does Rasmussen do as a rookie, is Bernier a good signing, etc.

There's no way in the world I'm watching more than 3-4 games this year, because they're not (IMO) an entertaining product, and not (IMO) on the verge of becoming one. So why SHOULD I care if they tank a year, since I won't be watching either way? I'll come back after Holland leaves, and the balance of vets leaving /kids improving has shifted a bit more, assuming the product appears to be heading in the right direction.

We are very different fans, with very different interests and priorities. AND THAT'S OK.

 

[marcmadsen]

Mantha - Larkin - Zadina
Vanek - Neilsen - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Athanasiou - Rasmussen
Helm - Glendening - Abdelkader

This combo makes the most sense to me

I can't imagine a situation, at least to start the season, where Rasmussen gets placed on Athanasiou's wing. There will definitely be some adjustments and growing pains with AA at centre and I think they would want to insulate Rasmussen with more established players. I also think they'll want to see Vanek and AA together.

So, I like your lines but my guess would be with one change:

Rasmussen - Nielsen - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Athanasiou - Vanek

 

[Lovonov]

Honestly I see Blashill leaning on Nielsen and Vanek to be the leaders of that forward group.

With that being said, teaching Ras and Zadina how to be pro's falls a lot under Vanek/Niels.

Best lines in my eyes...

Nyquist - Larkin - Mantha
Bertuzzi - Nielsen - Zadina
Vanek - AA- Rasmussen
Helm - Glendening - Svechnikov

Trash - Trash
More trash - Trash
Hronek - Trash

Howwy
Bernier

Line 1: gives the lionshare of icetime to Larkin and Mantha to learn and grow into 1st line players. Ups Nyquist's stock for trades.
Line 2: Bertuzzi is given a pure grinder/puck-fetcher role to help Nielsen feed the puck to Zadina. Nielsen's defensive stature gives Zadina confidence to do what he wants.
Line 3: Gives AA and Vanek that previously shown chemistry, throwing in Rasmussen in to help with puck battles and net front presence. Teaches AA to play g'damn defense. Sheltered role.
Line 4: Svechnikov gets two guys who will be on the ice strictly to get him the puck. Solid defense from them 2, giving Svech more freedom and less concern.

Defense is trash, play Hronek every game please.

Bernier eventually takes the starting role, probably towards Christmas.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well of course we don't agree. But that doesn't mean I ever said to mess with Zadina's development. I said, if it's obvious he's ready, play him. If not, don't. That's exactly what they've been doing with prospects for the last few years, so I don't see how this is any different.

And there's no way we're going to see eye to eye on the lottery, because we approach sports in general from radically different angles. You're probably going to watch a significant part of the regular season, watching for things like, is Larkin taking the next step, how does Rasmussen do as a rookie, is Bernier a good signing, etc.

There's no way in the world I'm watching more than 3-4 games this year, because they're not (IMO) an entertaining product, and not (IMO) on the verge of becoming one. So why SHOULD I care if they tank a year, since I won't be watching either way? I'll come back after Holland leaves, and the balance of vets leaving /kids improving has shifted a bit more, assuming the product appears to be heading in the right direction.

We are very different fans, with very different interests and priorities. AND THAT'S OK.

That is perfectly reasonable. And you're right, I'll want to watch them, because I am pretty immune to **** quality hockey. Playing net behind beginner level skaters will do that to you.

I kinda subscribe to the old Ernie Harwell way of thinking about it. Even if in the larger sense, you're watching something that is worthless (i.e. The Tigers in the 90s), you'll still go and watch and maybe see something you've never seen before. With most other teams kinda leaning themselves into a tank as well, the Wings will likely actually have a chance in a good majority of their games. And even if they don't, you'll see stuff like Larkin or AA blow down the side and light up the goalie like he's standing still. Or Mantha ripping a top shelf shot short side on Calgary.

And I did go see the Stars and Stripes showdown. I know there wasn't any checking at all, but Larkin's vision looked fantastic. He looked like he belonged on the ice right next to Kane and Matthews. Which, btw, Auston Matthews is a ****ing stud. I never really saw him play at all before.

 

[jkutswings]

That is perfectly reasonable. And you're right, I'll want to watch them, because I am pretty immune to **** quality hockey. Playing net behind beginner level skaters will do that to you.

I kinda subscribe to the old Ernie Harwell way of thinking about it. Even if in the larger sense, you're watching something that is worthless (i.e. The Tigers in the 90s), you'll still go and watch and maybe see something you've never seen before. With most other teams kinda leaning themselves into a tank as well, the Wings will likely actually have a chance in a good majority of their games. And even if they don't, you'll see stuff like Larkin or AA blow down the side and light up the goalie like he's standing still. Or Mantha ripping a top shelf shot short side on Calgary.

That's cool; I can understand enjoying the little stuff in the moment, and as the kids start to pan out, there should be more and more of those moments to enjoy.

Which, btw, Auston Matthews is a ****ing stud. I never really saw him play at all before.

Of course he is...he was taken 1st overall.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

What is defined as "obviously ready?"

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

and then signing Erik Karlsson and Tyler Seguin as free agents.

Rebuild over!