Player Discussion Kevin Hayes

[Mac n Gs]

Hayes is a fantastic passer, so he could be slotted to the right of the net to facilitate low-to-high passes into the slot.

 

[kovazub94]

I don't know, but I think I'd find a spot for the guy who scored 6 pp goals in 83 PP minutes last season. You know, less PP time than David Desharnais got. He can take Vesey's spot. I doubt we'll miss his 1 pp goal from last year in his 115 minutes.

I have this weird thing where I like optimizing the ice time of good players and playing bad players less. Odd. I know.

Don't know where I stated I'd preferred DD or Vesey ahead of Hayes to get this sarcastic reaction, but making such assumptions is typical for posters around here.

Otherwise, I did not see your response - is Hayes a 1st unit PP guy to extrapolate his production in 83 PP minutes (big sample to begin with?) that would make him a 60-point player?

 

[kovazub94]

Hayes is a fantastic passer, so he could be slotted to the right of the net to facilitate low-to-high passes into the slot.

1st PP unit ahead of Zuke and Buch?

 

[Mac n Gs]

1st PP unit?

Second probably. Use 4F1D with KZB, Zucc, and Shatty.

 

[kovazub94]

Second probably. Use 4F1D with KZB, Zucc, and Shatty.

Yup, so then he's a 2nd PP unit guy getting about 30 sec per PP. He'd be the same (at most) pretty much everywhere in the NHL

 

[silverfish]

Don't know where I stated I'd preferred DD or Vesey ahead of Hayes to get this sarcastic reaction, but making such assumptions is typical for posters around here.

Otherwise, I did not see your response - is Hayes a 1st unit PP guy to extrapolate his production in 83 PP minutes (big sample to begin with?) that would make him a 60-point player?

50-60 point player. Don't know where I stated he'd definitely be a 60-point player to get this terrible lack of reading comprehension reaction, but making such mistakes is typical for posters around here.

I don't know where I'd play him in this system, the point is that I would find the spot for him to maximize the ice time of a player who is better than the players getting more ice time than him. Put him anywhere, idgaf, as long as he's on the ice where he can succeed better than the players who are playing ahead of him.

I also don't know if with a larger ice time he'd see continued success. I doubt it, considering his PP g/60 was like 1.3 higher than Ovi's, but that shouldn't bar him or the coaching staff from trying considering they have players doing far less with more.

 

[Off Sides]

Although that is true, I think my point still stands. He has already had an opportunity to do something that most players his age have not done, and that is be a UFA.

UFA having to go onto entry level contract is a little different than UFA.

Not saying Hayes does not like the Rangers, just that I'd think any player that can be a pure UFA is probably leaning more towards testing the market unless the team at that point is willing to pay what will likely be open market prices. Rangers too, are they really going to commit that type of cap space to Hayes before the market opens?

I don't know, I just think this probably turns out to be Hayes sold as a rental at the deadline.

 

[eco's bones]

This is very, very wrong... Chris Kreider absolutely is a 1st line player--a very ****ing good one

You see, when I think of legit 1st line players I'm thinking of a guy you can depend on year in and year out for 65 points. On the better team's in the league that's kind of expected production--maybe not on poor or mediocre teams.

 

[Gardner McKay]

UFA having to go onto entry level contract is a little different than UFA.

Not saying Hayes does not like the Rangers, just that I'd think any player that can be a pure UFA is probably leaning more towards testing the market unless the team at that point is willing to pay what will likely be open market prices. Rangers too, are they really going to commit that type of cap space to Hayes before the market opens?

I don't know, I just think this probably turns out to be Hayes sold as a rental at the deadline.

I agree. This leaves the team room to do what they want. Maybe Hayes wanted too much money on a long term deal and JG said "prove it to us this year you're worth it and we will talk". Maybe Hayes kills it and gets re-signed or is traded for a nice haul. Maybe he plays okay and is still traded for a decent haul or re-signed for less than he was wanting previously. Who knows.

If they are set on dealing him, I do think this was the best option though.

 

[SA16]

Yup, so then he's a 2nd PP unit guy getting about 30 sec per PP. He'd be the same (at most) pretty much everywhere in the NHL

I don't believe any team in the league gave their PP1 75% of the ice time. The split is generally like 60/40 for the most part. Maybe Wahsington is up there because they have a long term PP1 they've used that is dominant. As far as I can tell Ovechkin is the only forward in the league to have played more than 75% of his teams PP ice time this year.

And I'd play him on the halfway or around the goal line to be a passer.

 

[TheTakedown]

You see, when I think of legit 1st line players I'm thinking of a guy you can depend on year in and year out for 65 points. On the better team's in the league that's kind of expected production--maybe not on poor or mediocre teams.

He put up 37 in 58 playing with a Blood Clot then missed 2 entire months... That prorates to 52 in 82, and he was injured for 30% of the season.

Let's see him healthy in a non-ass-backwards system

 

[Mac n Gs]

Yup, so then he's a 2nd PP unit guy getting about 30 sec per PP. He'd be the same (at most) pretty much everywhere in the NHL

I mean he can be swapped with Zucc on the first unit, doesn’t matter to me. That 30 second shift is still more than what he got last season where he was 12th in total PP TOI. If you want a rough TOI/game look, he was 18th on our team last season.

 

[kovazub94]

50-60 point player. Don't know where I stated he'd definitely be a 60-point player to get this terrible lack of reading comprehension reaction, but making such mistakes is typical for posters around here.

I don't know where I'd play him in this system, the point is that I would find the spot for him to maximize the ice time of a player who is better than the players getting more ice time than him. Put him anywhere, idgaf, as long as he's on the ice where he can succeed better than the players who are playing ahead of him.

I also don't know if with a larger ice time he'd see continued success. I doubt it, considering his PP g/60 was like 1.3 higher than Ovi's, but that shouldn't bar him or the coaching staff from trying considering they have players doing far less with more.

Good, you bolded 60 or I'b be just like you putting words in my mouth about DD and Vesey.

And you keep going to the same point in the rest of your post. Where Hayes is supposed to get his PP minutes on this roster to make him 50-60 point player? Not sure if using this "I don't care how" logic you advocate for giving Hayes minutes ahead of Kreider, Zuke, Buch or you think Hayes will increase his production by getting 2 PP unit time?

 

[silverfish]

Good, you bolded 60 or I'b be just like you putting words in my mouth about DD and Vesey.

And you keep going to the same point in the rest of your post. Where Hayes is supposed to get his PP minutes on this roster to make him 50-60 point player? Not sure if using this "I don't care how" logic you advocate for giving Hayes minutes ahead of Kreider, Zuke, Buch or you think Hayes will increase his production by getting 2 PP unit time?

omfg dude.

You didn't say anything about DD or Vesey. I did. I'm saying that, while I'm not exactly sure where in the system on the PP he would be, because I don't have a full systems analysis for you right now, what I am saying is that TO ME, it's a no-brainer to play him on the PP over those guys.

Again, I'M SAYING that I'd maximize the ice time of my good players, and limit the ice time of my bad players.

Me saying this, not you, kovazub, me, silverfish, saying this, to you, in a post, responding to your post.

You: Where should Hayes play on the PP?
Me: I'm not sure, but I'd give him more ice time than DD or Vesey, which is the opposite of what happened last year.

That's the entire conversation. I don't know why this is so difficult.

 

[Inferno]

Did @silverfish just say that Hayes should be replacing zibanejad on the pp? Wtf man?

 

[SA16]

Good, you bolded 60 or I'b be just like you putting words in my mouth about DD and Vesey.

And you keep going to the same point in the rest of your post. Where Hayes is supposed to get his PP minutes on this roster to make him 50-60 point player? Not sure if using this "I don't care how" logic you advocate for giving Hayes minutes ahead of Kreider, Zuke, Buch or you think Hayes will increase his production by getting 2 PP unit time?

The Rangers had 7 forwards get at least 2 mins of pp time/game last year. Hayes got 1:07. If you bump him up a minute a game that's an extra 82 minutes which we can expect to be an additional 5-6 points.

Then he should probably get another minute a game of EV time than he had last year which should equate to another 3 points.

Then if he's used in an actual offensive role instead of a defensive role that's an unknown amount of points.

That's an additional 8-9 points right there before you consider the change in role. That's with him doing absolutely nothing different but just having a different guy coaching the team. Considering he's scored 44+ points in 3 of his 4 seasons that would put him in the 50-60 range right there.

 

[kovazub94]

I mean he can be swapped with Zucc on the first unit, doesn’t matter to me. That 30 second shift is still more than what he got last season where he was 12th in total PP TOI. If you want a rough TOI/game look, he was 18th on our team last season.

AV misused a lot of players on the roster, that's not the point.

I just don't see Hayes increasing his production to 60 points (sorry I'm focused on this number because if I din't intentionally want to exaggerate the type of player Hayes is I'd use 50+) from where he's now by getting 2PP unit time.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

AV misused a lot of players on the roster, that's not the point.

I just don't see Hayes increasing his production to 60 points (sorry I'm focused on this number because if I din't intentionally want to exaggerate the type of player Hayes is I'd use 50+) from where he's now by getting 2PP unit time.

Would you have less of a problem if he said “50-59 points”?

 

[silverfish]

AV misused a lot of players on the roster, that's not the point.

I just don't see Hayes increasing his production to 60 points (sorry I'm focused on this number because if I din't intentionally want to exaggerate the type of player Hayes is I'd use 50+) from where he's now by getting 2PP unit time.

Oh, you mean like saying 50-60 points?

 

[silverfish]

Did @silverfish just say that Hayes should be replacing zibanejad on the pp? Wtf man?

Yes.

Hayes is better than Ovechkin, Crosby, and McDavid combined. Honestly, Wayne who?

 

[Mac n Gs]

AV misused a lot of players on the roster, that's not the point.

I just don't see Hayes increasing his production to 60 points (sorry I'm focused on this number because if I din't intentionally want to exaggerate the type of player Hayes is I'd use 50+) from where he's now by getting 2PP unit time.

Keep in mind, that overall increase in production factors increased 5v5 ice time as well, which he should be getting. It’s really not that crazy of a notion considering he’s ahown he can consistently score ~45 points

 

[JimmyG89]

Hayes will increase his production by getting 2 PP unit time?

Yes, because he didn't even get 2 PP time last season. He averaged 23 seconds per PP opportunity. He never played on the PP. AV would use him the shift after the PP failed. He routinely got the 10-15 seconds that were left when both units went back to the bench after failing.

I'd like to see him in the rover spot that Kreider plays. Moving from the front of the net to the side as an occasional outlet. Use his vision and passing, as well as his size in front. He'll be better than Vesey at it, but that isn't saying much.

 

[eco's bones]

He put up 37 in 58 playing with a Blood Clot then missed 2 entire months... That prorates to 52 in 82, and he was injured for 30% of the season.

Let's see him healthy in a non-ass-backwards system

The highest Chris has ever done is 53. An issue for him has always been inconsistency or put another way he is consistent with his inconsistency. He's 27 year old now. What he is IMO is a very good second line left wing. With a Penguins or a Capitals team maybe he does the Alex Kovalev but with the Rangers I expect we'll be seeing more 50+ point seasons.

It's a point that I've been trying to make but our best forwards year in and year out--there might be a 60 point player--in a really good year maybe two guys do that and then under them 50's and 40's. The best team's will have guys in the 70's, 80's, 90's. And IMO Krieder's best hope to get to 60 is with a playmaking center and Zibanejad is not really a playmaking center.

 

[kovazub94]

omfg dude.

You didn't say anything about DD or Vesey. I did. I'm saying that, while I'm not exactly sure where in the system on the PP he would be, because I don't have a full systems analysis for you right now, what I am saying is that TO ME, it's a no-brainer to play him on the PP over those guys.

Again, I'M SAYING that I'd maximize the ice time of my good players, and limit the ice time of my bad players.

Me saying this, not you, kovazub, me, silverfish, saying this, to you, in a post, responding to your post.

You: Where should Hayes play on the PP?
Me: I'm not sure, but I'd give him more ice time than DD or Vesey, which is the opposite of what happened last year.

That's the entire conversation. I don't know why this is so difficult.

Because playing ahead of DD and Vesey wasn't even a question, dude.

I asked if Hayes would get to that level of production if he's behind Kreider, Zuke and Buch (i.e. only getting 2nd PP unit minutes). @mrjimmyg89 flat out stated yes (thank you very much). You went on rant that he should've been getting PP ahead of DD and Vesey (???)

 

[silverfish]

OK, I'll bite. What should be Hayes' role on PP? He is not a shooter. He's not a blue line QB and not good enough to be half wall setup man. Front of the net then maybe? Would Hayes be worthy of being on the top PP unit? IMHO not on this NYR team and basing on this, not on many other teams. So do you really think it would make Hayes a 60-point producer if he's a second unit front of the net guy?

You: Is PP2 time enough to be a 60 point guy?

I don't know, but I think I'd find a spot for the guy who scored 6 pp goals in 83 PP minutes last season. You know, less PP time than David Desharnais got. He can take Vesey's spot. I doubt we'll miss his 1 pp goal from last year in his 115 minutes.

I have this weird thing where I like optimizing the ice time of good players and playing bad players less. Odd. I know.

Me: I'm not sure, but I'd find him a spot there over guys currently on PP2.

Because playing ahead of DD and Vesey wasn't even a question, dude.

I asked if Hayes would get to that level of production if he's behind Kreider, Zuke and Buch (i.e. only getting 2nd PP unit minutes). @mrjimmyg89 flat out stated yes (thank you very much). You went on rant that he should've been getting PP ahead of DD and Vesey (???)

You let me know where I went wrong.