Confirmed with Link: Kessel and a 4th to Arizona for Galchenyuk and PO Joseph

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Gurglesons

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Our team has been great through 8 games. Our PP has taken a dip in terms of league-wide rankings, but it's still very early.

ES production is important. But Kessel was among the top RW scorers at ES last year too. We'll see how the year progresses.

Is top twenty among the top RW scorers?

Filtering scoring by players listed as RW doesn’t capture the Stamkos and Reinharts of the world.

When your 6.8 mil winger who is supposedly elite has less ES goals then Bryan Rust, in 10+ more games that is when you start looking into moving him.
 
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Peat

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Kessel's always been kind of a PP specialist though. He averages like 40 ES points per season over his career which is kind of, I mean it's good, that's a legit top-6 player, but it's hardly elite and when you consider his ****ty defense it's even less impressive.

There was a three year stretch in Toronto where Kessel had the most ES points in the league and not so many PP points. The PP specialist we saw was a reinvention, just like Kessel going from goalscorer to playmaker was a bit of a reinvention.
 
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Gurglesons

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There was a three year stretch in Toronto where Kessel had the most ES points in the league and not so many PP points. The PP specialist we saw was a reinvention, just like Kessel going from goalscorer to playmaker was a bit of a reinvention.

I hope my critique of Phil doesn’t come off as doubting his career. He quite possibly could go down as a top five American player in history.
 

AjaxTelamon

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So, Phil has played 6 games. He's got 1 assist at EVEN STRENGTH (ES) and is a -2. For those who said what happened last year with Phil's ES production was a sign of what was to come rather than an aberration, the start of Phil's Coyotes career certainly supports that idea. He's still a PP specialist, but his days of being an impact player at ES appear to be over. In a lot of ways, it's similar to James Neal. There was no identifiable gradual deterioration in the ES play. Just one day it seemed he was a difference maker at ES and one day he no longer was.

You'd best be careful with logic like this, because the very best hockey this team has played in the last year has been the month without Geno last spring and since Geno has gone done this year.

It's possible both Phil and Geno are washed up at ES. Of course, there are other possibilities as well. Better to be a little more cautious with the sample sizes, context and the blame game, or your baby could get tossed out with that bathwater.
 
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Gurglesons

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You'd best be careful with logic like this, because the very best hockey this team has played in the last year has been the month without Geno last spring and since Geno has gone done this year.

It's possible both Phil and Geno are washed up at ES. Of course, there are other possibilities as well. Better to be a little more cautious with the sample sizes, context and the blame game, or your baby could get tossed out with that bathwater.

Malkin matched Phil’s ES production in 14 less games last year. I have no idea why we would make that argument.

Not to mention Malkin has demonstrated over the last two seasons he can independently drive a line and he’s a center.
 
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KIRK

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Malkin matched Phil’s ES production in 14 less games last year. I have no idea why we would make that argument.

Not to mention Malkin has demonstrated over the last two seasons he can independently drive a line and he’s a center.

You have no idea why some people at HFBoards would make an empty argument like that?

giphy.gif
 
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Plub

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lemme get this straight: team that hasn't missed the playoffs this millennium continues to be successful after losing a top-6 player, and said top-6 player struggles when going to a team historically known for being a place where offense goes to die?

dang.

Struggles? He's been playing great. Are you referring to a different player than Kessel?
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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People forget that Kessel was a crazy burner in his prime. His whole game was beating people down the wing to get time and space to unleash.

My view is that he adapted his game knowing that he could only beat defenders down the wing with consistency for so long.
 

Turin

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There was a three year stretch in Toronto where Kessel had the most ES points in the league and not so many PP points. The PP specialist we saw was a reinvention, just like Kessel going from goalscorer to playmaker was a bit of a reinvention.

Yea he used to be a top 10 winger pretty easily. Now he’s not top 20. His point totals don’t tell the story.
 

billybudd

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So, Phil has played 6 games. He's got 1 assist at EVEN STRENGTH (ES) and is a -2. For those who said what happened last year with Phil's ES production was a sign of what was to come rather than an aberration, the start of Phil's Coyotes career certainly supports that idea. He's still a PP specialist, but his days of being an impact player at ES appear to be over. In a lot of ways, it's similar to James Neal. There was no identifiable gradual deterioration in the ES play. Just one day it seemed he was a difference maker at ES and one day he no longer was.

I'd be careful to read into samples that small, but I've long been on record saying that when the wheels do come off Phil's game, his decline will go like a rocket pointed upside-down. There's not really any middle ground to this player. He's either a star or a massive liability. Nothing in between.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Is top twenty among the top RW scorers?

Clearly. All the more impressive given what he had playing behind him at ES last year, a fact that gets regularly, conveniently ignored.

Interesting to note that the year before, Kessel finished 1 ES point behind the magnificent Sidney Crosby.

Filtering scoring by players listed as RW doesn’t capture the Stamkos and Reinharts of the world.

Wouldn't make his ES production any less impressive. We're not adding any of the players above him and nobody we have in-house is going to sniff his ES totals.

When your 6.8 mil winger who is supposedly elite has less ES goals then Bryan Rust, in 10+ more games that is when you start looking into moving him.

More useless parsing.
 

Gurglesons

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Clearly. All the more impressive given what he had playing behind him at ES last year, a fact that gets regularly, conveniently ignored.

Not really sure what this means unless this is you continuously blaming other factors on Kessel’s decline which obviously is your go to aside when it doesn’t support your argument.

Interesting to note that the year before, Kessel finished 1 ES point behind the magnificent Sidney Crosby.

If anyone is saying Kessel wasn’t impressive prior to last year they are straight up wrong.

The issue is players like Kessel fall off quick. Obviously he’s made some adjustments to his game to become more of a PP specialist and more based on playmaking, but we needed a goal scorer in our top six, not someone that sets up Sid or Geno.


Wouldn't make his ES production any less impressive. We're not adding any of the players above him and nobody we have in-house is going to sniff his ES totals.

Aside from the fact a 3.5 million dollar winger scored more goals then him at ES in 10 + less games. I could honestly care less about the assists that are produced on a line with Sid or Malkin.

If Kessel was putting up those assists on the 3rd line as he did in the past no problem.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Not really sure what this means unless this is you continuously blaming other factors on Kessel’s decline which obviously is your go to aside when it doesn’t support your argument.

So you're going to ignore that the player who has proven time and again - with no shortage of data to support it - to bring everyone down around him was stapled to the 2nd line last year and pretend that it should have no effect.

And ignore the difference in Kessel's possession numbers in '17-18 and '18-'19 with and without JJ.

K.

If anyone is saying Kessel wasn’t impressive prior to last year they are straight up wrong.

The issue is players like Kessel fall off quick.
Obviously he’s made some adjustments to his game to become more of a PP specialist and more based on playmaking, but we needed a goal scorer in our top six, not someone that sets up Sid or Geno.

He scored 50 ES points in '17-'18 and 46 ES points in '18-'19.

What a drop!

Aside from the fact a 3.5 million dollar winger scored more goals then him at ES in 10 + less games. I could honestly care less about the assists that are produced on a line with Sid or Malkin.

If Kessel was putting up those assists on the 3rd line as he did in the past no problem.

Rust scored ES goals at a better pace than Malkin last year, and Malkin made almost 3 mil per more than Kessel.

Malkin's a bum too!*

*using a single arbitrary stat as some sort of absurdist trump card/sole determinant of value
 
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Gurglesons

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So you're going to ignore that the player who has proven time and again - with no shortage of data to support it - to bring everyone down around him was stapled to the 2nd line last year and pretend that it should have no effect.

And ignore the difference in Kessel's possession numbers in '17-18 and '18-'19 with and without JJ.

K.



He scored 50 ES points in '17-'18 and 46 ES points in '18-'19.

What a drop!



Rust scored ES goals at a better pace than Malkin last year, and Malkin made almost 3 mil per more than Kessel.

Malkin's a bum too!*

*using a single arbitrary stat as some sort of absurdist trump card/sole determinant of value

Kessel since January first has 21 ES points in 50 games which is a pace of 34 over an 82 game season.

The point isn’t what he did. It is that there are obvious indications of his decline at 5v5 and ES.

We didn’t have an in house replacement for Malkin and besides that point Malkin can suck for years and he’ll still be gifted a spot on our roster given his legacy here.

Also, we didn’t bring Malkin in to score goals. He’s a center who needs to dictate play. He did that last year despite actually being tied down with an anchor on his line in Phil.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Kessel since January first has 21 ES points in 50 games which is a pace of 34 over an 82 game season.

Every time you parse a player's points like this to try to diminish elite offensive totals it will be dismissed.

It's a joke.

The point isn’t what he did. It is that there are obvious indications of his decline at 5v5 and ES.

The obvious indications are little more than your opinion, which is countered by his virtually identical production both years and the burden of having the worst possession defenseman in the league over the last decade on his back last season.

We didn’t have an in house replacement for Malkin and besides that point Malkin can suck for years and he’ll still be gifted a spot on our roster given his legacy here.

Trying to justify this Rust vs. Kessel thing has led you to some wacky conclusions. Where was Kessel's in-house replacement? Malkin sucks now?

Also, we didn’t bring Malkin in to score goals. He’s a center who needs to dictate play. He did that last year despite actually being tied down with an anchor on his line in Phil.

This is your fundamental misread. Where did the Pens ever say they brought Kessel in to score goals?

And again, Kessel possession numbers with Geno were fine in '17-'18. Then came the x-factor that you can ostrich on all day but it doesn't make it go away. All the data shows that JJ even dragged Crosby's possession down significantly last year, but yeah, Kessel's supposed to be immune because reasons.
 

pokey10

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Not trying to get raked over coals over this, but why hasn't anyone brought up the other side of the ice when it comes to Kessel's game? He didnt do much backchecking and some of his turnovers between the red line and our zone were brutal.
 

Shady Machine

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Honest question. Has anyone here watched Phil play in Arizona? I haven't so I can't speak with any credibility about his play so far this year. 6 games is 6 games. Give it 20 and then let's talk.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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I mean this from the bottom of my heart: if you honestly think that Jack Johnson was the sole reason for every single problem on the Penguins last year, your opinion is worthless because you're showing yourself to not be at all rational. I don't know if it's laziness, scapegoating or just being a fanboy, but it's just absolutely absurd in every way.

When I read that, I basically interpret that to mean "the Penguins have a perfect team outside of Jack Johnson". For a team that got embarrassed in a 4-0 sweep in the playoffs last year, yeah that's just bull****. Regardless of what Johnson did, Kessel was a negative player analytically both offensively and defensively. He put up 2 ES goals from February 1st until the end of the season. He had a stretch of 29 games without an ES goal. That's the reality of what Kessel did last year, and the Penguins were 100% in the right to pull the plug on him when they did.
 

Peat

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Honest question. Has anyone here watched Phil play in Arizona? I haven't so I can't speak with any credibility about his play so far this year. 6 games is 6 games. Give it 20 and then let's talk.

We don't cotton to that sort of talk 'round here mister. You take that common sense nonsense of yours to someone else's town before someone gets bit by a spider.


edit: The only strong takeaway I think that can be taken from Kessel in Arizona (and it should still wait for 20 games) is that Kessel appears to be heavily dependent on his supporting cast these days. Which I guess isn't really news anyway.
 
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