Ken Holland's Remarks about the off-season

[InjuredChoker]

silky, you want franzen bought out?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I'd absolutely consider it, as I would consider trading him if a move was available. I'd of course need to know all the financial/cap details that would pertain (such as the recapture penalty.) But I'm honestly tired of him and don't believe it's going to get any better from here on out.

When people talk about his numbers, it really doesn't phase me. I'm not impressed. Because he's two players. When he's on he's a huge asset obviously. The problem is that he's on much less frequently than he's off, and just as if not more importantly, he's never on come April anymore. 4 years in a row. That's an issue. Especially since he's going to be given a top 6 role regardless of whether he's on or not. That's an issue for me as well. Especially when we have so much youth on the rise. When has he not been in the top 6 since his breakout in 08? Even during his awful streaks he holds spot.

More so, Franzen brings a negative energy to this team now IMO. That's just how I see it. I think it's one of those moves that despite the "numbers" you lose with his absence, you gain even more just by him being gone.

If it was up to me just from a pure roster spot, I'd be more than fine if he wasn't on the team next season. I do, however, believe that too much youth isn't ideal as well, so I'd be all for re-signing Alfie for another year.

 

[InjuredChoker]

if franzen would be traded this offseason and he retires 2017, the penalty will be

Detroit Red Wings (2017-18 through 2019-20) $2,075,758
Anaheim Ducks (2017-18 through 2019-20) $545,45

2018

Detroit Red Wings (2018-19 through 2019-20) $3,113,636
Anaheim Ducks (2018-19 through 2019-20) $0

2019

Detroit Red Wings (2019-20 through 2019-20) $6,227,273
Anaheim Ducks (2019-20 through 2019-20) $0

 

[bababooeyII]

Franzen is going nowhere, Holland already stated as such he's not even going to consider trading him. This is why Franzen can get away with coasting and not giving maximum effort, he won't be held accountable. Do you really think he doesn't know that he won't get bought out or traded, nor held accountable? Of course he does.

 

[icKx]

Franzen's real salary going forward: 5m, 5m, 3.5m, 2m, 1m, 1m

Much like Hossa, there was never a risk that either guy would play out the full contract.

We realistically have three more years of Franzen, outside chance of four.

 

[Bench]

Franzen's real salary going forward: 5m, 5m, 3.5m, 2m, 1m, 1m

Much like Hossa, there was never a risk that either guy would play out the full contract.

We realistically have three more years of Franzen, outside chance of four.

That was the idea, and under the old rules, it would have been fine. Alas, they changed the rules halfway through his contract so it went from awesome to ehhhh really fast. Same with Zetterberg.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

That was the idea, and under the old rules, it would have been fine. Alas, they changed the rules halfway through his contract so it went from awesome to ehhhh really fast. Same with Zetterberg.

Which is dumb, they should have been grandfather claused.

 

[icKx]

That was the idea, and under the old rules, it would have been fine. Alas, they changed the rules halfway through his contract so it went from awesome to ehhhh really fast. Same with Zetterberg.

I'm not as familiar with the new CBA rules as I should be.

Say Franzen retires after three more seasons, leaving three remaining on the contract.

What are we on the hook for?

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'm not as familiar with the new CBA rules as I should be.

Say Franzen retires after three more seasons, leaving three remaining on the contract.

What are we on the hook for?

post #953. except all the penalty is on DRW of course for those years so little over 2.6 mil per year.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That was the idea, and under the old rules, it would have been fine. Alas, they changed the rules halfway through his contract so it went from awesome to ehhhh really fast. Same with Zetterberg.

LTIR my friend. You think even 10% of the guys over 35 in this league can pass a legitimate physical. I mean I am not even worried about this, it is the obvious loophole. The problem might be if he actually wants to play instead of be LTIR money at the end in all honesty.

But just watch how often that happens, it is the obvious loophole. Go sit at home make your million, we can be 10% over and then LTIR you. A lot of people are scared of this for really probably no good reason. They will work around it, smart people work in these front offices, despite what is often said about them.

 

[Bench]

LTIR my friend. You think even 10% of the guys over 35 in this league can pass a legitimate physical. I mean I am not even worried about this, it is the obvious loophole. The problem might be if he actually wants to play instead of be LTIR money at the end in all honesty.

But just watch how often that happens, it is the obvious loophole. Go sit at home make your million, we can be 10% over and then LTIR you. A lot of people are scared of this for really probably no good reason. They will work around it, smart people work in these front offices, despite what is often said about them.

That's one way to go.

Certainly Zetterberg and Franzen both have an injury history to match the story.

Which is dumb, they should have been grandfather claused.

I can't believe they weren't. The league obviously wanted to punish the loophole deals. But if it was legal, and approved by the league at the time, it should function under the rules in which it was signed.

 

[Winger98]

I can't believe they weren't. The league obviously wanted to punish the loophole deals. But if it was legal, and approved by the league at the time, it should function under the rules in which it was signed.

This is the same league that's back out of its punishment of the Devils for the Kovalchuk deal. You have to adjust your expectations accordingly with Bettman.

 

[Bench]

This is the same league that's back out of its punishment of the Devils for the Kovalchuk deal. You have to adjust your expectations accordingly with Bettman.

A child asks his mom if he can go outside and play. Mom is reluctant, but agrees. Kid comes back a few hours later and gets grounded for playing outside, saying he should have known better.

That's what happened with the NHL and the Franzen type deals. I'm a little bitter about it, since it directly impacts two significant Wings contracts, but whatever.

 

[NyquistIsMyGod*]

So we're now supposed to be excited for him because his hot streak lasted 21 games and that you seen effort afterwards?

Dan Cleary always showed effort as well.

Do me a favor, do not try and put words in my mouth so you can make your argument. It's not working.

Franzen had 41 points in 53 games. Fact.

Mule's issues a lot of the time were effort. This year his effort level has never been as high. His streak was impressive, longer than most times. Even when he wasn't on his annual streak he was competing and creating. Without Mule, this team doesn't make the playoffs.

But than again, you want to buyout a 50+ point 4M winger.. Who do you suppose the team picks up that averages about 55-60 points a season for 4M? Could you please enlighten me who. But no, let's buyout a guy that obviously has value...

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Let me do you a favor and supply you with some more "facts":

Franzen's 13-14 hot steak:
23GP, 29pts, +14

The rest of Franzen's 13-14:
31GP, 12pts, -8

This is not even including the playoffs, which would make it even worse and I'll get to later...

His hot steak was phenomenal, as it usually is. His hot streaks are also why people constantly bring up his numbers as a perennial "__ pt player."

The problem is that his hot streak consisted of less than 39% of the entire season. The other 61+% of the season you're getting a guy who plays at a 32pt pace over the course of an entire season and is a minus player. More so, that player I just described always gets prime minutes (top 6 role and top unit PP.)

Do you know how angry we all were when Cleary was getting top 6 minutes without producing the past few years? Well, guess what, Franzen was producing at a Cleary level for over 61% of the season last year. Expect he got even bigger minutes and roles than Cleary was.

So save the "effort" BS talk, because effort doesn't make up for a complete lack of production. Cleary always showed great effort, but once he stopped being effective we hated him in his role.

Additionally, let's look at Franzen's postseason trend...

Last 4 playoffs:
32GP, 12pts, -11

That is under a 31pt pace while being a huge minus.

But guess what, he has an amazing hot streak every year and he now shows effort even when he's useless!

If we knew what we were getting with Franzen, especially come April, it'd be easy to be on his side. But we don't anymore. He has a big hot streak that make his end of the year numbers look respectable, but you never know when it's coming and it unfortunately no longer comes when it matters most. Additionally, his useless streak lasts longer than his hot streak and despite this he's always given prime minutes.

So excuse me for not wanting this "50+ pt player" around anymore when the team could be improved if he was traded for a top 4 defenceman.

And to your "Wings don't even make the playoffs without him last season" comment... You could say that about the majority of the team last year.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs with Datsyuk and Zetterberg's start.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs without Z's play after Datsyuk went down.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs without Nyquist explosion.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs without the emergence of the Kid line.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs is Dekeyser doesn't give us a steady 2bd pairing.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs without Monster's record.

Detroit doesn't make the playoffs without Helm and Alfie.

See what I mean? It's a pretty easy statement when you just make the playoffs.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The streaky nature of Tatar will eventually show itself, it has in Grand Rapids and it did in Detroit. But people like the way he forces plays and appears to be hustling (he usually is) when watching him. It doesn't matter that for instance Mule is a far better defensive player and turns over the puck far less. Yes Tats will continue to develop but he hasn't worn the goat horns and is unlikely to, people like him. Ditto for Nyquist though he deserves very little criticism, not that I would expect him to get any.

Such is life, it is tough being Smith and Franzen, nothing you do is enough really. Ericsson is really one of the only ones to escape this phenomenon. It isn't worth getting bent out of shape, some see it some don't. Chances are though Tatar will make around Franzen money at some point in his career without being nearly the defensive player or scorer more than likely and having none of the center flexibility. Still people will be okay with that because he looks like he cares a lot more.

I think Tatar will continue to improve and I will admit that he is a far less frustrating player to watch at times, especially if you can forgive his turnovers. I like Tatar but this is a perfect example of where expectations come into play along with likability. Keep in mind once upon a time Fedorov couldn't do enough to please this fan-base so really the Mule scenario this is much less annoying than that at least for me.

By the way most goal scoring players are quite streaky. The fact Franzen ends up where he does almost every year is remarkably consistent. I don't care if it comes in a percentage of time it is big production and points in the bank towards the standing. Start doing that on Ryder or some other type players it will look similar. It is why Tatar goes up and down, he is primarily a goal scorer first. Even Mantha who should be elite will go through dry stretches like the Corey Perry's and Jeff Carter's of the world do.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i don't consider tatar streaky player. he tries hard all the time. some off the time the stuff he tries works, some times it doesn't. every scorer scores in bunches.

with franzen there's noticeable difference in effort. too noticeable, i don't expect the players to play hard 82 games but franzen takes way too many games off and doesn't bring it when it matters.

 

[NyquistIsMyGod*]

i don't consider tatar streaky player. he tries hard all the time. some off the time the stuff he tries works, some times it doesn't. every scorer scores in bunches.

with franzen there's noticeable difference in effort. too noticeable, i don't expect the players to play hard 82 games but franzen takes way too many games off and doesn't bring it when it matters.

I don't disagree. Tats is probably my second favourite Wing, and even when he's not scoring I love him game. He's hungry to score, and agressive. All I was saying is Mule's effort level was much higher than season than the past few years. He was garbage for the first 12-13 games in which he had like 1G 2A. When he returned, he had his longest streak, carried the team at times, and his effort level was there when he was not scoring, which was rare.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't disagree. Tats is probably my second favourite Wing, and even when he's not scoring I love him game. He's hungry to score, and aggressive. All I was saying is Mule's effort level was much higher than season than the past few years. He was garbage for the first 12-13 games in which he had like 1G 2A. When he returned, he had his longest streak, carried the team at times, and his effort level was there when he was not scoring, which was rare.

Agree, but he has a history of being a target.

I thought this was the best Mule has been in a while when in the lineup. As soon as he got his (medicine?) problem fixed he was close to the guy we want him to be.

I guess some have the expectation he is going to score every night. In that 40% dominant stretch of his seasons how often do we lose? He is supposed to be the third option after all and he is paid minimally to do that. Having a third guy on your team that can outright win games for 3.9 is pretty rare really.

 

[NyquistIsMyGod*]

Agree, but he has a history of being a target.

I thought this was the best Mule has been in a while when in the lineup. As soon as he got his (medicine?) problem fixed he was close to the guy we want him to be.

I guess some have the expectation he is going to score every night. In that 40% dominant stretch of his seasons how often do we lose? He is supposed to be the third option after all and he is paid minimally to do that. Having a third guy on your team that can outright win games for 3.9 is pretty rare really.

Depression issues I believe. He had new medicine after returning from that injury after those 12 games of miserable play. Mule IMO, he's a #3 but a #4 on a Stanley Cup contender. This year he was projected to be a 3a/b with Zetterberg, Datsyuk in front of him, and really with Alfredsson.

Mule still throws up a consistent .75 PPG each season. He's an average playoff player. He just happened to to have his streaks in the post season in 08 and 09. A 4M 50 point player is sitll a damn good find in this new era.

 

[Winger98]

A child asks his mom if he can go outside and play. Mom is reluctant, but agrees. Kid comes back a few hours later and gets grounded for playing outside, saying he should have known better.

That's what happened with the NHL and the Franzen type deals. I'm a little bitter about it, since it directly impacts two significant Wings contracts, but whatever.

The NHL not grandfathering in the deals didn't bother me, I never expected them to. The moment those life time deals started happening and the NHL started grumbling, I figured the league would find a backdoor to punish those teams. It was them slamming the Devils that bothered me. I didn't see the Kovalchuk deal as being significantly different than the other deals, and I thought the punishment was too severe for something they had already allowed other teams to skate with.

However, even though I was against the original punishment, it was even more bush league to then rescind the punishment when Kovalchuk jumped ship.

 

[Frk It]

This Franzen thing has been beaten to death.....

but a couple of things.

1) Silky makes a good point, though maybe not presented in the best way. A lot of Franzen's points come from a small % of games. That's a fact.

2) Yes, the games where Franzen wasn't scoring this year, he did not look as lazy as normal during his score-less streaks. But he still floats and has very little influence on the game in games where he is not on the score sheet. Hardly a coincidence.

3) He's no longer a big playoff player.

So for a few reasons, I would be fine with losing Mule. When he's on, I love him. When he's off, I hate him. As a whole, he's whatever. Never know which one is going to show up, so I don't really put a ton of stock in him.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

all players are expendable apart from the very few elite franchise cornerstone level ones

of course franzen is expendable how could he not be?

he showed be bought out way ahead of tootoo but alas we're not willing to do whatever it takes to win the only thing that matters

so we're stuck with him like it or not

 

[SoupNazi]

all players are expendable apart from the very few elite franchise cornerstone level ones

of course franzen is expendable how could he not be?

he showed be bought out way ahead of tootoo but alas we're not willing to do whatever it takes to win the only thing that matters

so we're stuck with him like it or not

Buying out Franzen instead of little Tootoo is doing "whatever it takes to win?"

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Buying out Franzen instead of little Tootoo is doing "whatever it takes to win?"

franzen being gone clears pretty good cap space longterm and a top 6 spot that could go to someone who actually helps us win today and tomorrow

tootoo being bought out clears 2 million? in cap space for 9 months and an ahl forward

those compliance buyouts should only be used for actual bad long term contracts, your bryzgalovs(sp) and lecavaliersm not your 1 year/2million dollar players