Ken Holland's Doppelganger

[Bench]

I'm going to post some quotes from fans. You guys can tell me if they sound familiar.

Quote 1:

So in the last couple of hours we have seen [free agents], all players who could step in and immediately help the [team], go elsewhere...

I'm not sure I get [General Manger's] logic sometimes. Sure, it's great to build through the draft. Cheap, young players that you THINK (and I emphasize THINK) can help you get better in the short-term. But [Star Player] isn't getting any younger, and the window to win is getting smaller. So why not go after a [UFA 1] or even a [UFA 2] who can help solidify this team and contribute now? And you know what they're capable of, they've been in the league for years. [Defensive position] has been the biggest area of need for several years, yet [General Manger] has done little to nothing to address the problem. [Defensive Player 1] isn't the long-term answer there. You think a solid [defender] is going to be available early in the draft? Not so sure about that...so why not chase a proven [Defender] like [UFA 1] to help NOW?

With [Star Player] turning 33 this year, maybe it's time to buck the trend of building solely through the draft and go with known and proven talent in the [League]...Pretty frustrating to say the least...

Quote 2:

I've never said this but I'm done with [General Manager]. Viable reliable options at positions of need, and not at back breaking contracts year after year just keep going elsewhere. All I can think of right now is WTF is his strategy???? [GM], it's called Tittle Town for a reason, not Make The Playoffs Town.

Quote 3:

Please don't sign [Team Veteran 1] again and cut the dead, useless, slow weight of [Team Veteran 2]. It's time to let go of these guys and get some cheap quick young guys that have some speed.

Quote 4:

Feigned interest [in free agency] is more like it. I see plenty of holes to fill and not much activity. The draft cannot solve all of the issues.

Quote 5:

I don't expect them to break the bank in free agency. My concern is that they have too many holes to fill via the draft, especially picking near the bottom of the first round. Let's be somewhat realistic about this past season. We were close from being [near .500], did not win our division and had an offense in disarray for most of the season. [Division Rival 1] continues to improve as will [Division Rival 2 & 3]. Sometimes you have to roll the dice.

It's pretty amusing how by replacing a few key words you'd swear these fans were talking about the Wings and Ken Holland. For those unaware, these quotes came from fans of the Green Bay Packers regarding General Manager Ted Thompson. And I didn't have to search far, all the quotes came from one article published today, which is the start of NFL free agency. Thompson, like Holland, usually abstains from anything significant in the early days of free agency and elects to promote from within and build through the draft. However, this strategy, while effective in fielding 7 straight playoff births, has yet to create a second championship team and one with holes at key positions. With their star quarterback entering his mid-30s, fans want a more proactive general manager to surround him with talent to win today.

Have we ever seen Ted and Ken in the same place at the same time?

Click to read more...

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Green Bay is a bunch of chokers. They could win easily. And they have Come closer then detroit

 

[Reddwit]

The problem I have with this thread right off the bat is that you could take quotes from ALL of the most extremist posters on a team's website and make them look like morons.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect recently:

Larkin ****ing blows. I don't even care if he's barely old enough to vote in a primary, he can't even stand on his skates. He's a diver, a non-competitive loser, and can't handle the ****ing flu. He's the loser epitome of the typical player on this team. I bet he handwashes his socks. I bet he uses a netty pot and drinks anti-oxident tea. I beat he does yoga every once in a while. What a loser, diver, ****** beard-grower, etc.

At this very moment, somewhere, there are people complaining about the likes of Stan Bowman and Barry Trotz, so you're gonna have to give me more in terms of these quotes.

 

[Bench]

Green Bay is a bunch of chokers. They could win easily. And they have Come closer then detroit

It's not really about Packers = Red Wings in every damn way, more about organizational philosophies and their shortcomings. But OK, I'll respond to your drive by quip.

I see you didn't watch them this year. They struggled to run, defend, and put up yards. They barely made the playoffs. And they only "choked" in their playoff game because of they made a desperation Hail Marry to force OT to begin with. You can't choke if you're the underdog, which they certainly were against Arizona.

The team has a below average defense and holes on offense. Many of those holes have previously been disguised by an elite player in his prime. And those holes have been there for years. Does this sound familiar at all? Rodgers can't carry the team forever just like Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't able to maintain the same level.

 

[Bench]

The problem I have with this thread right off the bat is that you could take quotes from ALL of the most extremist posters on a team's website and make them look like morons.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect recently:



At this very moment, somewhere, there are people complaining about the likes of Stan Bowman and Barry Trotz, so you're gonna have to give me more in terms of these quotes.

You act like I had to dig for some outrageous quotes. I didn't. This is the conversation around Thompson and his organizational philosophy of building a team, and it mirrors that we see from Ken Holland. And both fan bases have exactly the same issues with it. Even the head coach of the Packers advocated the team be more aggressive in filling needs. Anybody else remember Babcock lamenting Burns being snatched up by the Sharks? Yeah, exactly.

If you want to dismiss this as internet trolling akin to that crazy thing you posted about Larkin, sure, but it's not even close to the same. If I found critiques of Stan Bowman, none of them would revolve around being too conservative and building through the draft... so how is that comparable? This is equating like to like, not just negative to negative. There's a real discussion to be had here.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

It's not really about Packers = Red Wings in every damn way, more about organizational philosophies and their shortcomings. But OK, I'll respond to your drive by quip.

I see you didn't watch them this year. They struggled to run, defend, and put up yards. They barely made the playoffs. And they only "choked" in their playoff game because of they made a desperation Hail Marry to force OT to begin with. You can't choke if you're the underdog, which they certainly were against Arizona.

The team has a below average defense and holes on offense. Many of those holes have previously been disguised by an elite player in his prime. And those holes have been there for years. Does this sound familiar at all? Rodgers can't carry the team forever just like Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't able to maintain the same level.

They were fine up until injuries

 

[Shaman464]

This is relevant how? You can do this with almost any team's fan base unless they are actively in the process of winning titles.

 

[Ezekial]

As a Packers and Red Wings fan I am susceptible to the most boring off-seasons ever.

As for this thread, next year should be really big for the Packers not so much for the wings:
They were without 2 receivers from week 6 on, Eddie Lacy was a fat out of shape slug - who seems to be intent on getting back to form, and a defense loaded with rookies last season should take a decent step.

 

[YpsiWings]

Interesting comparison. I think Thompson should be commended for not handing out ridiculous contracts in free agency. The NHL pales in comparison to the amount of crazy signings in the NFL. The ability to restructure contracts is a huge cause.

Every fanbase has those people who love to complain and are never satisfied, even very successful franchises like the Packers and Red Wings. Just look at that make the playoffs poll for proof. I find it appalling and embarrassing that a 1/4 of fans want to see the team lose.

 

[Bench]

This is relevant how? You can do this with almost any team's fan base unless they are actively in the process of winning titles.

No, you can't do this with almost any team's fan base. It's relevant because you can't name two more conservative GMs in all of sports. Just because a team isn't winning doesn't mean they don't make trades and shy away from free agency, thus relying almost entirely on the draft to build a team.

The thread isn't about "Look at these people complaining". It's about the parallels in team building philosophy across sports and how it ties back to our Red Wings. The quotes were amusing to me because just by changing the names of players, they are identical critiques of Ken Holland and the Wings. While you can find complaints within every franchise, you can't find them about this particular topic. As I addressed above, it's not about relating negative to negative, but like to like.

They were fine up until injuries

Haven't we heard that same thing about the Red Wings in years past? The Packers are pretty good, but they are much closer to the 2011 Wings than the 2008 Wings. And the GM is intent on riding it out through the draft thus far.

 

[Bench]

Interesting comparison. I think Thompson should be commended for not handing out ridiculous contracts in free agency. The NHL pales in comparison to the amount of crazy signings in the NFL. The ability to restructure contracts is a huge cause.

Every fanbase has those people who love to complain and are never satisfied, even very successful franchises like the Packers and Red Wings. Just look at that make the playoffs poll for proof. I find it appalling and embarrassing that a 1/4 of fans want to see the team lose.

But the difference comes if you think fielding (or icing) a competitive team is "success". And if you stand pat and keep drafting, waiting for your hidden gems to come through the system as your star players age.

We're not talking about fans complaining their GM isn't making the wrong moves. That's universal across every single team and every sport, of course. We're talking about their fans complaining their GM makes almost no moves. That's wholly more rare and it's interesting, at least to me, to see the comparisons in team success, longevity of playoff standings, organizational drafting, and ultimately media and fan reactions.

 

[FlashyG]

No, you can't do this with almost any team's fan base. It's relevant because you can't name two more conservative GMs in all of sports. Just because a team isn't winning doesn't mean they don't make trades and shy away from free agency, thus relying almost entirely on the draft to build a team.

The thread isn't about "Look at these people complaining". It's about the parallels in team building philosophy across sports and how it ties back to our Red Wings. The quotes were amusing to me because just by changing the names of players, they are identical critiques of Ken Holland and the Wings. While you can find complaints within every franchise, you can't find them about this particular topic. As I addressed above, it's not about relating negative to negative, but like to like.



Haven't we heard that same thing about the Red Wings in years past? The Packers are pretty good, but they are much closer to the 2011 Wings than the 2008 Wings. And the GM is intent on riding it out through the draft thus far.

Does Holland really shy away from Free Agency though? he may not have signed a big prize every year but he seems to be in on almost every big free agent available.

If anything he seems to rely on it too much, its trading that Holland seems to shy away from.

 

[YpsiWings]

But the difference comes if you think fielding (or icing) a competitive team is "success". And if you stand pat and keep drafting, waiting for your hidden gems to come through the system as your star players age.

We're not talking about fans complaining their GM isn't making the wrong moves. That's universal across every single team and every sport, of course. We're talking about their fans complaining their GM makes almost no moves. That's wholly more rare and it's interesting, at least to me, to see the comparisons in team success, longevity of playoff standings, organizational drafting, and ultimately media and fan reactions.

I agree with FlashyG, Holland is not afraid to sign free agents. Trading roster players is a much different story.

As far as success goes I think it is remarkable that Detroit has remained competitive for so long. During the streak they have averaged the 23rd pick when they draft in the 1st round. 10 out of the 24 years they have either traded, or traded back and didn't have a 1st pick. Incredible.

The problem with rebuilding is you have to trade Pav and Hank to do it right. And that shouldn't happen. So hopefully sign a free agent dman, and trade a winger for another. Trading from strength to address a weakness is a novel idea, I know.

 

[Bench]

Does Holland really shy away from Free Agency though? he may not have signed a big prize every year but he seems to be in on almost every big free agent available.

If anything he seems to rely on it too much, its trading that Holland seems to shy away from.

It's all relative. Name a GM on a team without an internal salary cap, ala Arizona, that has signed less big free agents to contracts? The biggest deal he gave in years and years was Weiss at $25 million. Which never would have happened if Flip had wanted to stay.

And Ted Thompson was "in on" a few free agents, too. The quotes I posted above come from an article about Ted missing out on a free agent rumored to be pursued by the Packers. But he notoriously doesn't want to pay market value. Mostly he's right to avoid the bloated deals, sometimes he's not. Same as Holland.

I'm not advocating Holland should be a free agency mover and shaker, but he's been anything but unless you spot him points for tire kicking. He's been reluctant to give larger deals to players like Stralman (and the famous "he's like Kindl) but his own guys always seem to find their way to an extension.

It will be telling what comes out of Detroit if Stamkos hits the market. Then we'll find out if they want to spend, ha.

 

[FlashyG]

It's all relative. Name a GM on a team without an internal salary cap, ala Arizona, that has signed less big free agents to contracts? The biggest deal he gave in years and years was Weiss at $25 million. Which never would have happened if Flip had wanted to stay.

And Ted Thompson was "in on" a few free agents, too. The quotes I posted above come from an article about Ted missing out on a free agent rumored to be pursued by the Packers. But he notoriously doesn't want to pay market value. Mostly he's right to avoid the bloated deals, sometimes he's not. Same as Holland.

I'm not advocating Holland should be a free agency mover and shaker, but he's been anything but unless you spot him points for tire kicking. He's been reluctant to give larger deals to players like Stralman (and the famous "he's like Kindl) but his own guys always seem to find their way to an extension.

It will be telling what comes out of Detroit if Stamkos hits the market. Then we'll find out if they want to spend, ha.

What about Mike Green this past off season? he was the top defenceman available.

I mean he's not chasing after guys we don't need but it seems every big name defenceman that hits the open market gets some calls from Holland.

 

[Bench]

What about Mike Green this past off season? he was the top defenceman available.

I mean he's not chasing after guys we don't need but it seems every big name defenceman that hits the open market gets some calls from Holland.

Sure, Mike Green is a free agent he signed, but to a relatively safe contract at only 3 years and $18 million total. Sekera signed for $33 million. Martin signed for $19. So Green got the 3rd highest total for a UFA defender.

I'm not saying Holland never signs free agents. Thompson signed Julius Peppers a few years ago, a rare dip into free agency spending. It happens. The point is it tends to happen less, and with less salary, than most other rosters. I haven't actually run the numbers, but I'd wager Hossa's UFA contract to Chicago at $68 million is more than all of Holland's combined since... ummm... 2008? That would be interesting.

And again it's not equating free agency = good. It's just a point of reference for our discussion. I think Holland is super conservative in free agency compared to his peers.

 

[FlashyG]

Sure, Mike Green is a free agent he signed, but to a relatively safe contract at only 3 years and $18 million total. Sekera signed for $33 million. Martin signed for $19. So Green got the 3rd highest total for a UFA defender.

I'm not saying Holland never signs free agents. Thompson signed Julius Peppers a few years ago, a rare dip into free agency spending. It happens. The point is it tends to happen less, and with less salary, than most other rosters. I haven't actually run the numbers, but I'd wager Hossa's UFA contract to Chicago at $68 million is more than all of Holland's combined since... ummm... 2008? That would be interesting.

And again it's not equating free agency = good. It's just a point of reference for our discussion. I think Holland is super conservative in free agency compared to his peers.

Holland doesn't make rare dips into free agency though, it's rare if he doesn't dip into the free agent market. He's signed at least one player via it every year for the past decade and had only 2 years in that span where he didn't sign someone with some name value.

He signed the top defenceman this past season and it should be seen as a plus that he got him on a 3 year deal instead of a long term deal like Sekera's, he also added Brad Richards on top of that.

The year before he went hard after Ehrhoff, Boyle and Niskanen all of which chose to go elsewhere, with 2 of them leaving money on the table to do so. As a back-up he re-signed Quincey.

The year before that he signed both Weiss and Alfredsson

In 2012, he went hard after Suter, and very weakly for Parise

In 2011, he did nothing, unless you count Commodore.
In 2010 added Mike Modano
In 2009 added Todd Bertuzzi
In 2008 added Hossa
in 2007 added Brian Rafalski

I don't know what other GM's have done, but what does a super aggressive GM's Free agent track record look like over the past decade?

 

[Martinez]

Yeah dude, plus the percentage of players on their team that they drafted is insane. No free agents

 

[Bench]

Yeah dude, plus the percentage of players on their team that they drafted is insane. No free agents

The roster iced tonight included 2 guys that didn't enter the NHL as Wings property. Richards and Green. Both acquired this off-season. One of which has no future with the team next year. Even the two scratches tonight are Wings drafted. You could theoretically bump the number to 3 if Miller isn't on LTIR.

I think that says it all. Very realistic possibility the Wings run with only Green as an outside acquisition next year.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Danny Trevathan: Packers never called but 'I wish they would have'

kenny at least kicks the tires. TT doesn't even do that.

#advantagekenholland