Ken Holland's comments on UFA signings and 2018-2019 roster

[raymond23]

The defensive transistion is coming along slowly, and even after the Green signing there's still room for Hronek or Hicketts to steal the #6 spot from Jensen, who's a replacement level guy at best. Next year Kronwall is gone which opens up another full-time spot. Then Daley (if he's not traded), Ericsson, and Green are up the year after that. Dekeyser is the only one signed long term and it's not like we have a blue-chip guy in the pipeline knocking down the door in the mean time. Hopefully we get lucky and draft a Bowen Byram or Cam York next year and they can be the stud we need going forward.

What transition? I'm failing to see it.

If they have two kids up this year (playing regularly), then I'm on your side. But as of now there is no defensive transition.

 

[raymond23]

This is close to explaining the contention I have with Holland's comments/strategy.

With it being said in every other other post regarding our frail prospects, I have to ask: READY FOR WHAT? To be worthy to grace the ice with the offensive fireball Nielsen, the never-die work ethic and battling ability of Justin Abdelkader? Maybe people don't want them embarrassed by the blazing speed of Helm and Glendening, or the wizard-like playmaking of Daley? Lol.

The Red Wings are a garbage, bottom 5 NHL team, desperate for talent. I've said it before but this organization has a problem evaluating pro ability. They literally believed that Cleary and Samuelsson were a better option than Nyquist and Tatar at that point of their careers. What I'm saying is that Svechnikov, after another 50 games, will be a more effective player than ex-superstar Vanek. Not to mention the contributions I would expect Zadina and Rasmussen to make if given his place. If any of the guys are the next Jurco than so be it. As Shaman said at least we're moving forward, finding what we've got and what we need.

Were Hishier and Patrick "ready"? I think they were. Holland would probably have sat them for Booth and Ott, but despite their slower start (especially Patrick) by the end of the season they proved to be dependable if not 1st/2nd line material. Zadina and Rasmussen fit into this same category and on a much more needy team.

I think the Wings are out to lunch if they think Vanek makes us more competitive or will draw a larger audience. Green- I'm in the crowd that feels the signing was necessary. As long as we didn't take on Filppula I won't be posting everyday complaining about Vanek.

Worst pro scouts in the league. I've been saying it for a while now. Absolutely no eye for talent outside of physical ability and attitude.

They're pretty damn good at evaluating AHL talent though. I think that's Ryan Martin's job? Not sure but they always find some damn good players.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Which is a fantastic hot streak. But that doesn't make it unreasonable to still be curious how his production will stack up over a longer stretch of games.

Remarkable that a full season at a Point/Game clip at 1.5 over 61 games isn't good enough to be NHL ready, knowing full well that the slow part of his year was when he was injured, and the strong part of his year was after surgery. Every single person on this thread would like to see youth step into the lineup, and now all the sudden some people are saying someone who embarrassed the WHL when he was healthy and had a good year even with half of it plagued by injury isn't ready? This is getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[FunkyColdZadina]

What transition? I'm failing to see it.

If they have two kids up this year (playing regularly), then I'm on your side. But as of now there is no defensive transition.

I expect Hicketts and Hronek to beat Jensen for his spot out of camp. One of them (hopefully Hronek) is then the full time #6 with the ability to hopefully climb the depth chart. The other then sees ice time either due to injuries or with some goofy 7 d-men rotation they've been experimenting with in GR and briefly last season in Detroit. Holland has already said that we might carry 8 NHL defensemen next year, so while that's not an ideal scenario we could very well have 2 prospects see significant time.

 

[raymond23]

I expect Hicketts and Hronek to beat Jensen for his spot out of camp. One of them (hopefully Hronek) is then the full time #6 with the ability to hopefully climb the depth chart. The other then sees ice time either due to injuries or with some goofy 7 d-men rotation they've been experimenting with in GR and briefly last season in Detroit. Holland has already said that we might carry 8 NHL defensemen next year, so while that's not an ideal scenario we could very well have 2 prospects see significant time.

That would be nice but I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't see Jensen going anywhere. And for that matter, I don't see any of them besides Kronwall going anywhere anytime soon. Interested to see how it plays out.

 

[Winger98]

That would be nice but I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't see Jensen going anywhere. And for that matter, I don't see any of them besides Kronwall going anywhere anytime soon. Interested to see how it plays out.

I have a hard time seeing Jensen moved, too. I think we'll keep Hickets up, and Cholo/Hronek will be in GR with Holland talking about how they will get big minutes down there, it's a man's league, etc.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I have a hard time seeing Jensen moved, too. I think we'll keep Hickets up, and Cholo/Hronek will be in GR with Holland talking about how they will get big minutes down there, it's a man's league, etc.

THIS

KH will not have Hronek or Cholo playing 7th dman minutes, period, end of story

he will NOT trade a top 4 dman in order to create the roster room and Green was NOT signed to play 6th dman minutes

Green-daley
dekeyser-ericsson
jennsen-kronwall
hicketts

 

[raymond23]

THIS

KH will not have Hronek or Cholo playing 7th dman minutes, period, end of story

he will NOT trade a top 4 dman in order to create the roster room and Green was NOT signed to play 6th dman minutes

Green-daley
dekeyser-ericsson
jennsen-kronwall
hicketts

A top-four defenseman? There is one top-four defenseman on that entire roster. This is the kind of thinking that will plague us. Holding on to these incredibly average defenseman because they've paid there dues or something. It's an absolute joke.

These kids need to be up earlier because whatever we seem to be doing down in GR is only stunting their development. Give these kids the green light and let them feel out their game in the big leagues.

I think it was Frk It who's mentioned that any notable defender is playing regular minutes in the NHL very early in their careers. That's where they develop the most.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

A top-four defenseman? There is one top-four defenseman on that entire roster. This is the kind of thinking that will plague us. Holding on to these incredibly average defenseman because they've paid there dues or something.

These kids need to be up earlier because whatever we seem to be doing down in GR is only stunting their development. Give these kids the green light and let them feel out their game in the big leagues.

I think it was Frk It who's mentioned that any notable defender is playing regular minutes in the NHL very early in their careers. That's where they develop the most.

woah

believe me I was not saying their is no room in our top 4, I am saying in Holland and Blashills mind neither Hronek or Cholo would be playing out of the gate in our top 4. I believe those roles are already decided as I laid out.

Both those prospects will be in GR

 

[raymond23]

woah

believe me I was not saying their is no room in our top 4, I am saying in Holland and Blashills mind neither Hronek or Cholo would be playing out of the gate in our top 4. I believe those roles are already decided as I laid out.

Both those prospects will be in GR

Thing is there is plenty of room.

But if you're referring to what Kenny and Blash probably think then I understand. I thought that's what you were saying my b.

 

[NickH8]

In my opinion Hronek should be getting consistent minutes. Let Ericsson, Daley, DeKeyser, and Green eat up the top 4 minutes, Jensen the 7thD, and have Hronek on the third pair with Kronwall and on the power-play to put him in a good position to adjust. As the season goes along I expect him to advance in the lineup and push DeKeyser or Ericsson down to the third pair.

 

[jkutswings]

Remarkable that a full season at a Point/Game clip at 1.5 over 61 games isn't good enough to be NHL ready, knowing full well that the slow part of his year was when he was injured, and the strong part of his year was after surgery. Every single person on this thread would like to see youth step into the lineup, and now all the sudden some people are saying someone who embarrassed the WHL when he was healthy and had a good year even with half of it plagued by injury isn't ready? This is getting a bit ridiculous.

Speaking of ridiculous...

I said it's ok to be curious whether he can keep up a torrid pace. That's a very far cry from saying he's not ready. You're responding as if I claimed his mother wears army boots, when I'm just saying he had an awesome stretch, and let's see how he does this year.

 

[Shaman464]

Remarkable that a full season at a Point/Game clip at 1.5 over 61 games isn't good enough to be NHL ready, knowing full well that the slow part of his year was when he was injured, and the strong part of his year was after surgery. Every single person on this thread would like to see youth step into the lineup, and now all the sudden some people are saying someone who embarrassed the WHL when he was healthy and had a good year even with half of it plagued by injury isn't ready? This is getting a bit ridiculous.

The issue is that he's a HUGE man playing with teenagers as a top 10 pick. Domination is expected. There is no qualification. If he were in the AHL or NCAA or an European men's league those would be alright explanations, but he's playing in junior hockey as a massive guy. The fact for most of the season his production REGRESSED compared to his numbers the previous year is worrying, even if he was playing hurt. It took a hot streak at the end of the season just for him to return to his average. Again, I think hes a good prospect, but I want to see at least a quarter of the season in the WHL playing like he did in the last 20 games of last season to show it is a real step forward and not him getting hot for a short period.

 

[HIFE]

That would be nice but I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't see Jensen going anywhere. And for that matter, I don't see any of them besides Kronwall going anywhere anytime soon. Interested to see how it plays out.

People seem to be forgetting that for a few games after Green's injury Jensen led all D in TOI. Basically he was our #1. He's improved little by little and I think the org. values him a lot more than the fans.

 

[raymond23]

People seem to be forgetting that for a few games after Green's injury Jensen led all D in TOI. Basically he was our #1. He's improved little by little and I think the org. values him a lot more than the fans.

Pretty sure he was playing a ton of minutes in the World Championships too.

I feel like he's best suited on the bottom-pairing.

 

[shanman]

People seem to be forgetting that for a few games after Green's injury Jensen led all D in TOI. Basically he was our #1. He's improved little by little and I think the org. values him a lot more than the fans.

Same thing I thought. I thought he was very underrated for the job he does-especially compared to others who get paid like 5 times his amount.

Unfortunately that prob makes him easiest to move due to having somewhat decent value compared to cap hit

 

[Gyldenlove]

I just don't understand what Vanek and Green are supposed to achieve. Both players have played here before and neither managed to improve the team, neither seems to have made any lasting impact in terms of assisting development of younger players.

Cap space is so valuable today, why waste it? it could be a resource helping the rebuild, but instead it is wasted. I was pretty happy after the draft, but this just seems like a massive step backwards.

 

[Hen Kolland]

The issue is that he's a HUGE man playing with teenagers as a top 10 pick. Domination is expected. There is no qualification. If he were in the AHL or NCAA or an European men's league those would be alright explanations, but he's playing in junior hockey as a massive guy. The fact for most of the season his production REGRESSED compared to his numbers the previous year is worrying, even if he was playing hurt. It took a hot streak at the end of the season just for him to return to his average. Again, I think hes a good prospect, but I want to see at least a quarter of the season in the WHL playing like he did in the last 20 games of last season to show it is a real step forward and not him getting hot for a short period.

This is such a freezing cold take. What do we get out of Rasmussen's development if he goes to Tri City and plays a full season like he did in the last 20 games of last year? You're seeking excessive confirmation that he is developed beyond the CHL...that's the definition of over-ripening prospects. It would be one thing if you had the Grand Rapids thing to fall back on, but he will not get better playing against kids that he is already substantially better than.

 

[DetroitRed]

I seem to remember Holland saying something like you need to draft in the top three for about five years to start a successful rebuild. That was like a couple seasons ago, when they supposedly committed themselves to rebuilding. They haven't drafted in the top three once, let alone five times since then. So, I'd like to know if the big free-agent signings mean they've given up on rebuilding. Or if they are now rebuilding for some goal short of a cup. Seems a bit impatient or inspired by something other than winning a cup, such as by slightly more revenue before the inevitable first-round exit, if they even make it that far.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So, I'd like to know if the big free-agent signings mean they've given up on rebuilding..

The what now? Big?

 

[Shaman464]

This is such a freezing cold take. What do we get out of Rasmussen's development if he goes to Tri City and plays a full season like he did in the last 20 games of last year? You're seeking excessive confirmation that he is developed beyond the CHL...that's the definition of over-ripening prospects. It would be one thing if you had the Grand Rapids thing to fall back on, but he will not get better playing against kids that he is already substantially better than.

Substantially better than? Yet his regular season totals didn't budge his year post draft? He had a streak of 14 really amazing games. As a massive dude people have to cry injury to explain away why why his scoring clip only increased by 0.1 ppg in spite of all the tools he had? Even adding his hot playoffs his ppg is 1.5, which is decent, but Zadina had the same ppg as a younger player, and playing on NA ice for the first time last year. So, in the end, I would want him to start the season in the WHL, he shows he can set the league on fire for 15-20 games (about a month and a half) then he should get the call. Right now if only one rookie can make the team, it has to be Zadina. And ALL that being said I would MUCH rather have both Zadina AND Ras make the team, than to have to send either of them down.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Substantially better than? Yet his regular season totals didn't budge his year post draft? He had a streak of 14 really amazing games. As a massive dude people have to cry injury to explain away why why his scoring clip only increased by 0.1 ppg in spite of all the tools he had? Even adding his hot playoffs his ppg is 1.5, which is decent, but Zadina had the same ppg as a younger player, and playing on NA ice for the first time last year. So, in the end, I would want him to start the season in the WHL, he shows he can set the league on fire for 15-20 games (about a month and a half) then he should get the call. Right now if only one rookie can make the team, it has to be Zadina. And ALL that being said I would MUCH rather have both Zadina AND Ras make the team, than to have to send either of them down.

I've already spelled out why that is a bad idea. Zadina can take a step forward in GR to play against men, to mature, and work on specific things that the Wings want him to, all while not being thrown into the fire.

Ras doesn't have that opportunity it's NHL or WHL. He's physically and emotionally more mature than Zadina, and both of their talents are beyond W or Q level. Both can take a step forward into new leagues, even if only Ras makes the NHL, whereas your scenario has set Ras up to go play against people he is 2-3 years older than, 2-3 years further into his development, and as a top 10 pick, and he's more talented than probably 95+% of anybody he is going to play. How does that not screw up his development track?

 

[Shaman464]

I've already spelled out why that is a bad idea. Zadina can take a step forward in GR to play against men, to mature, and work on specific things that the Wings want him to, all while not being thrown into the fire.

Ras doesn't have that opportunity it's NHL or WHL. He's physically and emotionally more mature than Zadina, and both of their talents are beyond W or Q level. Both can take a step forward into new leagues, even if only Ras makes the NHL, whereas your scenario has set Ras up to go play against people he is 2-3 years older than, 2-3 years further into his development, and as a top 10 pick, and he's more talented than probably 95+% of anybody he is going to play. How does that not screw up his development track?

Because his development aside from a handful of games showed he made no real progress last season. I have already spelled out why playing a month or so in the WHL isn't the end of the world, because he can show he actually is capable of dominating, before he gets the call up. Also Zadina IS NHL ready, your speculation about Ras being more developed is speculative nonsense, and him being a top ten draft pick as a reach pick and in what was all around was the weakest draft in recent memory isn't saying much. He needs to show he can dominate the WHL before he's ahead of Zadina in my mind. Period. Until we know if the playoffs were a fluke, right now his track record is of playing what I would consider pretty marginally at the junior level (1.1 ppg, and mostly scoring on the power play, in spite of being a man in a kid's league).

 

[Nut Upstrom]

The issue is that he's a HUGE man playing with teenagers as a top 10 pick. Domination is expected. There is no qualification. If he were in the AHL or NCAA or an European men's league those would be alright explanations, but he's playing in junior hockey as a massive guy. The fact for most of the season his production REGRESSED compared to his numbers the previous year is worrying, even if he was playing hurt. It took a hot streak at the end of the season just for him to return to his average. Again, I think hes a good prospect, but I want to see at least a quarter of the season in the WHL playing like he did in the last 20 games of last season to show it is a real step forward and not him getting hot for a short period.

REGRESSED: Numbers were down while he was injured, numbers were amazing when healthy. Crazy.
even if he was playing hurt: Demanding the moon from someone playing with an injury is simply not an expectation based in reality. Dismissing his injury as a likely or even possible factor in his "regression" makes no sense to me unless you're trying to take credit away from him. Why does the dislike for this prospect seem so personal with some of you?
a hot streak: You call it a hot streak, I call it Rasmussen when playing healthy and injury free.

At the end of the day we will have to wait until Ras is playing in the NHL, as he'll never win some people over until he starts to succeed there. I hope I'm right about the kid, I'm obviously very high on him. No flash and I don't see him dominating shifts or games at an NHL level, but I do see him scoring lots of goals.
I watched the Winnipeg/Vegas series and kept noticing how the Jets, as big and as skilled as they are, could not score. Their big boys refused to drive the net and they never scored dirty goals and they lost that series to an inferior team. I think players who score dirty goals are an under-valued and under-appreciated commodity until your fancy, skilled goal scoring dries up in a tight game or series.
Maybe I'm too high on the kid, as I've seen little of him other than last pre-season where he didn't really stand out during the run of play, but he always seemed to show up on the scoreboard.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Until we know if the playoffs were a fluke, right now his track record is of playing what I would consider pretty marginally at the junior level (1.1 ppg, and mostly scoring on the power play, in spite of being a man in a kid's league).

????

Pre surgery
22 GP 16 goals 15 assists 31 points +9 1.41pts/gp

Post-surgery (regular season + playoffs):

39GP 31 Goals 31 assists 62 points +16 1.59pts/gp