Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

LOL

Ken Holland signed Gator because he thought it would help the Wings stay competitive in the short term and not worry about the long term ramifications of such a terrible deal.

That’s called mortgaging a teams future.

Again? How?

You and Redder speak of needing flexibility and how it’s hamstringing us so badly, and yet you can’t mention one single instance in which we lost a player that was anything more than mediocre (Riley Sheahan is the only player we have traded and that’s because AA was angling for 2.5+ million and they wanted to make sure they had money for him).

And yet, for all of our supposed inflexibility... we had 10M a year to offer Stamkos in FA, we have plenty of cash to take care of our good young RFAs, and if we wanted to go m-f crazy, we would have money for Tavares.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I asked you for an example of how it was "mortgaging their future" which you are clearly not going to give me. because there isnt one.
I gave you an example with Chicago where that happened, in Detroit that's just not the case as of now.

My point is that you are being over the top, which you are.

I’ve compiled a list of all the future assets we’ve lost due to Nielsen and Abby’s contracts:

 

[Oddbob]

The Cap goes up every year, and we haven't added any new long term high price contracts. There is a million different scenarios that can be done to get cap space if they wanted a Tavares or Karlsson or whoever else we could get. In 2 to 3 years, cap is higher, some of the problem money is off the books and we are completely fine going into free agency. And lets say whoever we get in the top 7 this year turns into a Superstar Gem who needs massive money then all the better for us. We only have 3 important contracts that need significant money and we already have the space to make it work, so why do we need anymore space, when all the whiners want us to not add any free agents and continue to suck anyways?

 

[Oddbob]

I’ve compiled a list of all the future assets we’ve lost due to Nielsen and Abby’s contracts:

This list is incomplete though, because you forgot:







.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Simple logic is this Kliq - the more money you have tied up in mediocre, low-skill players, the more likely you are to be a mediocre, low-skill team. And if those contracts are long-term deals, you can expect that low-skill mediocrity to last longer.

Ken Holland locked himself into the mediocrity.
Realistically, you're looking at 5 years before this team turns it around. And that's only if Rasmussen and whoever we pick over the next year or two turn into core players within 5 years.

Who else is gonna turn this team around?
Larkin? By himself?
Mantha has work ethic issues.
Zetterberg is just wasting development minutes.
Nyquist?
AA is probably traded soon.
Svechnikov doesn't look good.
Bertuzzi looks like a complimentary guy (the kind who'll get overpaid if Kenny or a protege are around when he gets his deal in a few years).

On defense? Cholo? Hronek? Hicketts?
That's three pretty big maybes, to put it politely.

So yeah. 5 years.
If things go well.

Those last 5 years we spent spinning our tires had consequences.

I think maybe people have different interpretations of what "mortgaging the future" means and there is some disconnect going on.

In my mind "mortgaging the future" is doing something now that will prevent you from doing something/harming the team in the future.

With that frame of reference, has Gator's contract limited us from signing anybody good? Has his contract prevented us from drafting somebody good? Has his contract prevented us from acquiring someone good? Has his contract made us lose somebody good? Has his contract prevented/will prevent us from doing anything?

 

[InjuredChoker]

you guys are assuming that abby didn't have any trade value before he was extended?

 

[njx9]

I’ve compiled a list of all the future assets we’ve lost due to Nielsen and Abby’s contracts:

Which is bogus, of course, as the team doesn't have the ability to add salary in return for assets due to those contracts. Whether you think those are good trades or not is immaterial, the "list" you gave is, at the least, incorrect by omission.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Which is bogus, of course, as the team doesn't have the ability to add salary in return for assets due to those contracts. Whether you think those are good trades or not is immaterial, the "list" you gave is, at the least, incorrect by omission.

What player is out there to take on that would get us a good asset? And what asset would come with them?

And how often has this happened?

 

[njx9]

What player is out there to take on that would get us a good asset? And what asset would come with them?

And how often has this happened?

I'm not sure how you'd expect me to answer the first question, but I'd point to the Bickell/Teravainen trade as a clear opportunity to add a great asset in exchange for taking on a garbage contract. Arizona got Chychrun for taking on dead money from us.

Do you really want me to go and count up the actual occurrences of something that happens basically every single season, or is this a sideways way to dispute that taking on bad salary for greater trade value is a thing that happens in the NHL?

 

[Redder Winger]

I think maybe people have different interpretations of what "mortgaging the future" means and there is some disconnect going on.

In my mind "mortgaging the future" is doing something now that will prevent you from doing something/harming the team in the future.

With that frame of reference, has Gator's contract limited us from signing anybody good? Has his contract prevented us from drafting somebody good? Has his contract prevented us from acquiring someone good? Has his contract made us lose somebody good? Has his contract prevented/will prevent us from doing anything?

Meh. You can never know unless you know.

But reasonably, when your roster is full of shitty, overpaid players, of course it costs you.
If it hasn't already cost Detroit players (and it did cost them Sheahan), it will in the future.

But who knows?
Who knows how many trades Holland didn't pursue. How many trade blocked guys Holland didn't call on.
Maybe that's Holland being complacement. Maybe it's Holland locking himself into paralysis.

But last year, on a non-playoff team, we had to trade a 25 year old center to sign a 23 year old to a $1.4M contract. To me, that's one casualty.
Then you have others, like Pulkkinen and Jurco, who might have gotten opportunities in Detroit if Holland had the stones to walk away from those horrible contracts.
Yeah, neither guy has set the world on fire. Jurco's barely in the NHL and Pulkkinen has been in the AHL. But those teams didn't draft and develop him. They didn't invest in those guy like Detroit did. Draft teams are almost always more patient with their own projects.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Which is bogus, of course, as the team doesn't have the ability to add salary in return for assets due to those contracts. Whether you think those are good trades or not is immaterial, the "list" you gave is, at the least, incorrect by omission.

Yes we have missed out on imaginary and extremely farfetched future assets.

 

[njx9]

Yes we have missed out on imaginary and extremely farfetched future assets.

Again, you act like these trades have never happened. Why? Your own team traded an asset to get rid of dead salary. Did you forget that, or was that also "imaginary"?

 

[Redder Winger]

All the way to the bottom, people denied this team was falling.
And now that we're here, people act like there was no other way.
It's like talking politics with a partisan. You reach a point where you realize there is no rationale or logic. It's just blind faith.

 

[Ezekial]

 

[TCNorthstars]

I'm not sure how you'd expect me to answer the first question, but I'd point to the Bickell/Teravainen trade as a clear opportunity to add a great asset in exchange for taking on a garbage contract. Arizona got Chychrun for taking on dead money from us.

Do you really want me to go and count up the actual occurrences of something that happens basically every single season, or is this a sideways way to dispute that taking on bad salary for greater trade value is a thing that happens in the NHL?

No, I was genuinely curious how often it happens as I don't follow trades too closely. Do significant ones like Bickell happen every year?

 

[TCNorthstars]

Meh. You can never know unless you know.

But reasonably, when your roster is full of ****ty, overpaid players, of course it costs you.
If it hasn't already cost Detroit players (and it did cost them Sheahan), it will in the future.

But who knows?
Who knows how many trades Holland didn't pursue. How many trade blocked guys Holland didn't call on.
Maybe that's Holland being complacement. Maybe it's Holland locking himself into paralysis.

But last year, on a non-playoff team, we had to trade a 25 year old center to sign a 23 year old to a $1.4M contract. To me, that's one casualty.
Then you have others, like Pulkkinen and Jurco, who might have gotten opportunities in Detroit if Holland had the stones to walk away from those horrible contracts.
Yeah, neither guy has set the world on fire. Jurco's barely in the NHL and Pulkkinen has been in the AHL. But those teams didn't draft and develop him. They didn't invest in those guy like Detroit did. Draft teams are almost always more patient with their own projects.

Perhaps you missed the "something good" parts?

 

[njx9]

No, I was genuinely curious how often it happens as I don't follow trades too closely. Do significant ones like Bickell happen every year?

Fairly frequently.

Injured Player Salary Dumps Turn Out Very Valuable To Vegas - SinBin.vegas
Colorado Avalanche should use their cap space as an asset at this year’s trade deadline
Capitals trade Marcus Johansson to Devils for second and third round picks in 2018 Draft

I got tired of looking, but you can also see guys traded for far less than their actual value because the origin team needs to dump their salary (Johansson above, for instance, or maybe even the original Phaneuf trade) quite regularly.

Does having the cap space guarantee we could weasel a 1st out of someone for taking on their version of Bickell? Probably not. But the implication that it's not possible or that we didn't miss out is factually and demonstrably untrue.

 

[kliq]

you guys are assuming that abby didn't have any trade value before he was extended?

That's a completely different question though. Players can be traded at the TDL AND be re-signed. You want to argue that NOT trading Abby for an asset lost us a potential asset, sure. Had we traded him, maybe we get 3rd rounder.

But the argument here was that the 7 year deal "mortgaged the future" which it did not.

 

[kliq]

Again, you act like these trades have never happened. Why? Your own team traded an asset to get rid of dead salary. Did you forget that, or was that also "imaginary"?

I think that's a bit of a stretch, we traded down and acquired an asset as well (2nd rounder that ended up being Hronek).
If that trade was Datsyuk/Our 1st for their first I would agree, but the trade was Datsyuk/Our 1st for their first/their 2nd.

Arizona took on Datsyuk to help reach the cap floor, and we got two picks for one and avoided an injury prone player.

The Bickell trade is a good example of trading an asset to get rid of dead salary though.

 

[Redder Winger]

Perhaps you missed the "something good" parts?

OK. Sheahan had 10 goals and 19 assists at even strength while winning 54 percent of his faceoffs. $2.1M cap hit. Could still get better.
Zetterberg had 10 goals 28 assists at even strength and won 48 percent of his faceoffs. $6.1M cap hit. Only getting worse.
Nielsen had 10 goals and 13 assists at even strength and won 46 percent of his faceoffs. $5.25M cap hit. Only getting worse.
Glendening had 8 goals and 7 assists and won 58 percent of his faceoffs. $1.8M cap hit. Like at his peak

Sami Vatanan was available via trade this year.
Holland couldn't even f***ing call for him.
NO CAP ROOM.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Again, you act like these trades have never happened. Why? Your own team traded an asset to get rid of dead salary. Did you forget that, or was that also "imaginary"?

Budget teams do acquire dumps and try to get something of value out of it. We are not Arizona or Carolina. In theory, yes we missed the chance to do that. In reality, we will never do those deals and never should.

 

[Redder Winger]

I think that's a bit of a stretch, we traded down and acquired an asset as well (2nd rounder that ended up being Hronek).
If that trade was Datsyuk/Our 1st for their first I would agree, but the trade was Datsyuk/Our 1st for their first/their 2nd.

Arizona took on Datsyuk to help reach the cap floor, and we got two pick for one and avoided an injury prone player.

The Bickell trade is a good example of trading an asset to get rid of dead salary though.

Right. And the difference is that Chicago was good enough where they had to make tough decisions. The Red Wings were mediocre and had no such pressure. So Holland just kept giving out bad contracts like it was Halloween.

The Bickell contract is when it started going south for Chicago. And you knew it the day it was signed.
But Bickell, unless Helm and Abdelkader, got his contract after going toe-to-toe with Zdeno Chara in the Stanley Cup finals and was considered a key reason why Chicago beat Boston.
So you can understand the pressure to keep him.

There was no pressure for Detroit to keep Abby or Helm at all costs.
It was was just lazy, complacent Kenny, thinking that his guys must be worth it, because he drafted them, and they're still here.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Fairly frequently.

Injured Player Salary Dumps Turn Out Very Valuable To Vegas - SinBin.vegas
Colorado Avalanche should use their cap space as an asset at this year’s trade deadline
Capitals trade Marcus Johansson to Devils for second and third round picks in 2018 Draft

I got tired of looking, but you can also see guys traded for far less than their actual value because the origin team needs to dump their salary (Johansson above, for instance, or maybe even the original Phaneuf trade) quite regularly.

Does having the cap space guarantee we could weasel a 1st out of someone for taking on their version of Bickell? Probably not. But the implication that it's not possible or that we didn't miss out is factually and demonstrably untrue.

Looking through those links, none of those seem similar at all IMO.

1. Sure Vegas took on some salary and got some picks for it, but the intention was for the Islanders and BJ's to protect those that they couldn't protect because of number of slots. Didn't work out too well for the Blue Jackets on that one!
2. Neither of these actually happened. They were just ideas.
3. The Caps didn't package anything with Johansson to get those pics, so it isn't all that similar. Yes, they got rid of him for a bargain but the NJD didn't get anything else for taking on that cap dump. They got a player who is actaully worth the money.

 

[kliq]

OK. Sheahan had 10 goals and 19 assists at even strength while winning 54 percent of his faceoffs. $2.1M cap hit. Could still get better.
Zetterberg had 10 goals 28 assists at even strength and won 48 percent of his faceoffs. $6.1M cap hit. Only getting worse.
Nielsen had 10 goals and 13 assists at even strength and won 46 percent of his faceoffs. $5.25M cap hit. Only getting worse.
Glendening had 8 goals and 7 assists and won 58 percent of his faceoffs. $1.8M cap hit. Like at his peak

Sami Vatanan was available via trade this year.
Holland couldn't even ****ing call for him.
NO CAP ROOM.

Pretty sure we did have the cap room after dumping Tatar. Vatanen has a cap hit of 4,875,000 and Tatar had a cap hit of 5.3.
Also, in what world does a playoff team trade their top pairing D-man to a bottom feeder at the TDL?

 

[Redder Winger]

Budget teams do acquire dumps and try to get something of value out of it. We are not Arizona or Carolina. In theory, yes we missed the chance to do that. In reality, we will never do those deals and never should.

If we didn't have Abdelkader and Helm and Nielsen, why not?
Why not take a Bickell if it gets you Teravainen?
Last I looked, Teravainen was working on a 20+ goal, 60+ point season.

The difference in Detroit is that we'd be able to afford it when our young assets get good,