Keith Tkachuk

[mouser]

With Keith Tkachuk recently announcing his retirement after 18 season, curious to get our historians' impressions on his career:

- 1200GP, 538G/525A/1063PTS [career .886 PPG], 2219PIM
- Member of the 500G/500A club
- retro Rocket Richard Trophy [1997]
- 2x post-season 2nd all-star [1995,1998]
- 5x ASG appearances
- 4x Olympian [2002 Silver]
- Tied for 4th all-time points by a US-born player, trailing Modano, Housley & Roenick.
- Limited post-season success
- A couple contract squabbles earlier in his career
- Implicated in the the 1998 Nagano hotel room trashing


What's his legacy? What other past players would you consider comparable in style and/or career accomplishments?


p.s. Bonus trivia question: without looking it up, can you name which US-born player has the most career PIM?

Click to read more...

 

[Big Phil]

Won't - or shouldn't - be in the HHOF if that's what you are asking.

Personally I always thought he was a better regular season version of Gary Roberts for the most part.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

An American Cam Neely who never got to play with Oates and Bourque? Neely was a bit better, but I don't think it's that far off.

I said on the main thread, that to me, Tkachuk is one of those guys where we wait 10 years after he retires, then assess his legacy to see if he's HOF-worthy.

In his prime, he was slightly below Paul Kariya and John Leclair as the 3rd best left wing of the mid-late 90s. But he did add more career value than either of them after his prime.

People forget just how important Tkachuk was to US hockey in the mid 90s, and that does matter, at least to groups like the HOF committee.

He was also pretty good in the playoffs for Winnipeg/Phoenix. He didn't become known for the Tkachoke until after he signed the undeservedly huge contract with St. Louis.

I have Tkachuk in the ATD and this is the profile I made of him:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=24429820&postcount=84

 

[seventieslord]

I think history has already been pretty unfair to Keith Tkachuk. Not a hall of famer, but closer than most people think.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think history has already been pretty unfair to Keith Tkachuk. Not a hall of famer, but closer than most people think.

It's recall bias. He kind of became a joke in the 2nd half of his career, so people forget how good he was in the 1st half. Like JFF recently showed about Mike Keenan in another thread.

That's why I think it'll take a good 10 years or so before we can objectively look back at his career.

 

[MS]

I think history has already been pretty unfair to Keith Tkachuk. Not a hall of famer, but closer than most people think.

Oh, absolutely he's close.

538 goals and one of the best power-forwards ever.

If he'd done anything in the playoffs, at all, I'd probably say he's deserving of the HHOF.

But he didn't, and his playoff resume is one of the worst of all time amongst significant players. Maybe *the* worst.

In particular, his playoff record with the Blues really bothers me. He was aquired at a huge price to be the player who put a really good team over the top. And playing for that team was a great chance to show what he was made of - he can't claim that he was a Dionne playing his entire career for crap teams as that was one of the best squads in the league.

And he laid an absolute egg. 2 goals in 15 games in 2001 as he watched Pierre Turgeon carry that team on his back to the Conference Finals. 8 goals in 37 games altogether during his first stint in St. Louis, during his prime, on an excellent team.

Then he was traded to Atlanta to boost their playoff run, and promptly scored 1 goal as the Thrashers were swept.

When you look at his career, his regular season record might be good enough, but his playoffs absolutely sink him.

In the HHOF pecking order, he's fairly well behind Jeremy Roenick and Roenick is probably a 50/50 shot at best.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i posted this on the main board's tkachuk thread:

i remember first seeing tkachuk in the '92 playoffs against vancouver. at the time, he looked like another of a long line of surprising young power forwards to give the canucks trouble in the playoffs, like byfuglien last year or denis chasse (remember him?) once upon a time.

turns out he had a lot more offensive ability than it seemed at the time, but my enduring memories of him are, ironically, as an underwhelming guy when it counted-- see: the '03 playoffs against vancouver-- and as a guy who should have had a better career, career totals notwithstanding.

he was the leader of a dysfunctional phoenix team and publicly supported oleg tverdovsky's holdout (http://web.archive.org/web/199902031.../hfb3how1.html). that team's core was all talented but selfish guys who seemed to follow tkachuk's lead: janney, tverdovsky, khabibulin, arguably roenick, plus noted choker mike gartner. he and roenick (then dubbed "jeremy redneck") was also reportedly one of the main guys involved in the nagano incident.

i'm curious to hear what st. louis fans have to say about his leadership, because he had a terrible rap as a me-first guy in his prime, and of course he is famous for showing up to camp in st. louis ridiculously out of shape and then getting suspended. but did he ever grow up (like keith primeau in philly)? i wrote him off years ago and haven't paid too much attention to him since.

hall of fame? i say no. i remember some dreadful playoff series when he was in phoenix too, by the way.

 

[MS]

i posted this on the main board's tkachuk thread:



hall of fame? i say no. i remember some dreadful playoff series when he was in phoenix too, by the way.

Yeah, I'd kind of forgotten about that stuff in Phoenix back in the day and between that and the conditioning/professionalism issues in St. Louis I'd say that's an extra strike against him.

As for the Nagano thing, I remember a few leaks in the aftermath of that claiming that it wasn't the usual suspects guilty in that case but actually Doug Weight and Bill Guerin who were the most heavily involved.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Oh, absolutely he's close.

538 goals and one of the best power-forwards ever.

If he'd done anything in the playoffs, at all, I'd probably say he's deserving of the HHOF.

But he didn't, and his playoff resume is one of the worst of all time amongst significant players. Maybe *the* worst.

In particular, his playoff record with the Blues really bothers me. He was aquired at a huge price to be the player who put a really good team over the top. And playing for that team was a great chance to show what he was made of - he can't claim that he was a Dionne playing his entire career for crap teams as that was one of the best squads in the league.

And he laid an absolute egg. 2 goals in 15 games in 2001 as he watched Pierre Turgeon carry that team on his back to the Conference Finals. 8 goals in 37 games altogether during his first stint in St. Louis, during his prime, on an excellent team.

Then he was traded to Atlanta to boost their playoff run, and promptly scored 1 goal as the Thrashers were swept.

When you look at his career, his regular season record might be good enough, but his playoffs absolutely sink him.

In the HHOF pecking order, he's fairly well behind Jeremy Roenick and Roenick is probably a 50/50 shot at best.

This sums it up fairly well. Lets call Tkachuk's prime 1996-2004. In the regular season over that time span, he played at a 45-goal pace. In the 68 playoff games he appeared in, he produced a whopping 20 goals. Six of them came in a single first-round loss. For a guy who's main job was putting the puck in the net, that's just not acceptable. And this is hardly a great leader, defensive stalwart, or big-time intangibles player in question.

Poor supporting cast is certainly no excuse either. People forget that the Coyotes were actually a pretty good team in the late 90's. Certainly good enough that they ought to have won a playoff round at some point.

Even right up until last year, Tkachuk failed to deliver in the post season. If the Blues could have generated anything on the powerplay, they'd have given the Canucks a good run for their money last spring. After Brad Boyes, Tkachuk was head and shoulders above the rest of the Blues as a PP producer in the regular season. Big goose egg once the pressure was on though. By that point, I really wasn't expecting different.

 

[Big Phil]

It's recall bias. He kind of became a joke in the 2nd half of his career, so people forget how good he was in the 1st half. Like JFF recently showed about Mike Keenan in another thread.

That's why I think it'll take a good 10 years or so before we can objectively look back at his career.

To be fair though while he was very good in the first half of his career he still has a lot of holes in his resume. Let's not exaggerate his peak either.

He was 11th in scoring in 1997. That is as high as it went for him. Which shouldn't be the case because he led the NHL in goals that year with 52.

But it's telling that he wasn't even a 2nd team all-star that year (Kariya and Leclair were). The only years he was a 2nd team all-star were 1995 and '98. Not good at a weak LW position. Leclair was always either a 1st or 2nd team all-star during that span and he'll never grace the HHOF.

Plus we can't ignore how much he laid an egg in the postseason. Never once did he take the bull by the horns and lead a team. All those years of Winnipeg/Phoenix never making it out of the first round have got to at least partially lay on Tkachuk. St. Louis in 1999 scored two overtime goals in the last three games against Phoenix. One goal by Mr. Tkachuk and the series is over. That's just another example. Or how about the only thing Tkachuk ever won in his life was for USA in the 1996 World Cup. Except in the final game he was tossed for slashing Adam Foote so hard it broke his stick in half.

And the less we talk about St. Louis and Atlanta, the better. You see Tkachuk's legend will not grow with time. We can see it plain as day right now and it isn't a lie. He will never make the HHOF. I stand by the notion that he was a richer man's version of Gary Roberts with a worse playoff resume. That won't make you a legend.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He was 11th in scoring in 1997. That is as high as it went for him. Which shouldn't be the case because he led the NHL in goals that year with 52.

This is indeed the most likely reason he doesn't get inducted. Still a better scoring record than Bondra (who won't be inducted) and Tkachuk provided things that Bondra didn't.

Also, for the record, Cam Neely is the guy Tkachuk modeled his game after, and Neely was never Top 10 in scoring either.

But it's telling that he wasn't even a 2nd team all-star that year (Kariya and Leclair were). The only years he was a 2nd team all-star were 1995 and '98. Not good at a weak LW position. Leclair was always either a 1st or 2nd team all-star during that span and he'll never grace the HHOF.

Tkachuk was 3rd in AS voting though. He was 2nd or 3rd in AS voting for 4 straight years, then never again. His peak was actually pretty short. He tailed off slowly after 1998.

-2nd Team All-Star in 1995
-"3rd Team All-Star" in 1996
-"3rd Team All-Star" in 1997
-2nd Team All-Star in 1998

Plus we can't ignore how much he laid an egg in the postseason. Never once did he take the bull by the horns and lead a team. All those years of Winnipeg/Phoenix never making it out of the first round have got to at least partially lay on Tkachuk. St. Louis in 1999 scored two overtime goals in the last three games against Phoenix. One goal by Mr. Tkachuk and the series is over. That's just another example. Or how about the only thing Tkachuk ever won in his life was for USA in the 1996 World Cup. Except in the final game he was tossed for slashing Adam Foote so hard it broke his stick in half.

Tkachuk's physical presence was credited as one of the primary reasons the US won the WC in 1996. There are numerous articles about it. Do no discredit what Tkachuk did in 1996 - it was the high point of his career. His success in 1996 under pressure is probably a big reason that St. Louis signed him to that absurd contract.

As for the playoffs, Tkachuk played just as well for Winnipeg/Phoenix as he did in the regular season. Obviously, it wasn't good enough, but it was no worse than your average star player who never won anything.

Once he got to St. Louis, he became known as Tkachoke. A miserable disappointment, considering the record contract he had signed. And he really should have been much better. But what should be realized is that Tkachuk already was on the decline when he went to St. Louis. He was missing more games per year. He wasn't a 40-goal scorer in the regular season anymore. He still sucked (big time) in the playoffs with St. Louis, but he wasn't any worse than your average star player before 98.

And the less we talk about St. Louis and Atlanta, the better. You see Tkachuk's legend will not grow with time. We can see it plain as day right now and it isn't a lie. He will never make the HHOF. I stand by the notion that he was a richer man's version of Gary Roberts with a worse playoff resume. That won't make you a legend.

Are we really blaming Tkachuk for Atlanta? It was obvious by then that he was no longer an impact player, not even in the regular season. Blame Atlanta's idiot GM for trading away the future for one season of a guy who was well past his prime. For the record, though, there are newspaper articles from the time that interview Atlanta players who credit Tkachuk's leadership with helping them get to the playoffs to begin with.

For all of Tkachuk's failings, I really think that he only underperformed greatly in St. Louis. But he wasn't exactly the only one choking for St. Louis at the time. Though he was the one with the biggest contract (by far). Honestly, if Tkachuk's contract was more reasonable, I don't see him getting much more blame than Pronger for St. Louis's failings.

 

[Big Phil]

This is indeed the most likely reason he doesn't get inducted. Still a better scoring record than Bondra (who won't be inducted) and Tkachuk provided things that Bondra didn't.

Also, for the record, Cam Neely is the guy Tkachuk modeled his game after, and Neely was never Top 10 in scoring either.

Agree about Bondra. He won't get in either, nor should he. As for Neely I am in the camp that believes he should be in the HHOF and got in there based on a lot of sentiment. But he still was better than Tkachuk. Neely brought it come playoff time on three separate occasions that was at a level Tkachuk never copied. Throw in 4 2nd team all-star selections for him plus 50 in 49 and it's hard to argue in favour of Tkachuk.

Tkachuk's physical presence was credited as one of the primary reasons the US won the WC in 1996. There are numerous articles about it. Do no discredit what Tkachuk did in 1996 - it was the high point of his career. His success in 1996 under pressure is probably a big reason that St. Louis signed him to that absurd contract.

I haven't forgotten about that at all, he was very good and a thorn in the side of Canada that whole tournament. But him being thrown out of a deciding championship game hurts his cause as well. Maybe Tkachuk would provide the Amonte heroics if he's playing. It might be a nitpick, but just another example of him not contributing at a critical time

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agree about Bondra. He won't get in either, nor should he. As for Neely I am in the camp that believes he should be in the HHOF and got in there based on a lot of sentiment. But he still was better than Tkachuk. Neely brought it come playoff time on three separate occasions that was at a level Tkachuk never copied. Throw in 4 2nd team all-star selections for him plus 50 in 49 and it's hard to argue in favour of Tkachuk.

I think their regular season performances are very similar. Neely was just lucky enough to play with Bourque and Oates.

But yes, the playoffs push Neely over the top. Playoffs are the reason I have no problem with Neely in over Tkachuk. But let's not pretend the two are that far apart.

 

[Big Phil]

I think their regular season performances are very similar. Neely was just lucky enough to play with Bourque and Oates.

But yes, the playoffs push Neely over the top. Playoffs are the reason I have no problem with Neely in over Tkachuk. But let's not pretend the two are that far apart.

Regular season? No, not very far apart.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

As for the playoffs, Tkachuk played just as well for Winnipeg/Phoenix as he did in the regular season.

I'm not so sure about that. He followed up his 50-goal season in 1996 with a one goal effort against the Red Wings in the playoffs. The Coyotes finished 4th in 1999 and had the Blues on the ropes, up 3-1 in games. The Blues came back to win the series, another one-goal playoff outing by Keith, who was out-goaled by Louis DeBrusk. Phoenix was overmatched against Colorado in Tkachuk's final playoff in the desert, but he didn't exactly give them much hope for an upset when his production was exceeded by the likes of Travis Green and Benoit Hogue.

There were some respectable performances in Winnipeg/Phoenix, but for the most part, Tkachuk wasn't getting better with experience; the opposite would prove to be true. After the first two years in Phoenix, he was a perennial playoff disappointment with almost no exceptions.

For all of Tkachuk's failings, I really think that he only underperformed greatly in St. Louis.

Well, he spent nearly half his career in St. Louis so that's a pretty big strike against him.

 

[Big Phil]

I'm not so sure about that. He followed up his 50-goal season in 1996 with a one goal effort against the Red Wings in the playoffs. The Coyotes finished 4th in 1999 and had the Blues on the ropes, up 3-1 in games. The Blues came back to win the series, another one-goal playoff outing by Keith, who was out-goaled by Louis DeBrusk. Phoenix was overmatched against Colorado in Tkachuk's final playoff in the desert, but he didn't exactly give them much hope for an upset when his production was exceeded by the likes of Travis Green and Benoit Hogue.

Oh my goodness, I almost fell off of my chair when I read that. I looked it up and it's true. Yikes. Louie Debrusk? This is a guy who once took a slap shot that skipped on the ice!

 

[Oilers1*]

To be fair though while he was very good in the first half of his career he still has a lot of holes in his resume. Let's not exaggerate his peak either.

He was 11th in scoring in 1997. That is as high as it went for him. Which shouldn't be the case because he led the NHL in goals that year with 52.

But it's telling that he wasn't even a 2nd team all-star that year (Kariya and Leclair were). The only years he was a 2nd team all-star were 1995 and '98. Not good at a weak LW position. Leclair was always either a 1st or 2nd team all-star during that span and he'll never grace the HHOF.

Plus we can't ignore how much he laid an egg in the postseason. Never once did he take the bull by the horns and lead a team. All those years of Winnipeg/Phoenix never making it out of the first round have got to at least partially lay on Tkachuk. St. Louis in 1999 scored two overtime goals in the last three games against Phoenix. One goal by Mr. Tkachuk and the series is over. That's just another example. Or how about the only thing Tkachuk ever won in his life was for USA in the 1996 World Cup. Except in the final game he was tossed for slashing Adam Foote so hard it broke his stick in half.

And the less we talk about St. Louis and Atlanta, the better. You see Tkachuk's legend will not grow with time. We can see it plain as day right now and it isn't a lie. He will never make the HHOF. I stand by the notion that he was a richer man's version of Gary Roberts with a worse playoff resume. That won't make you a legend.

This is a solid, articulate summmation of Tkachuk, IMO. I tried to write something similar on the league board but couldn't get it to come together quite as well as you did here.

Couple points I wanted to add my two cents on:

1. In defense of Tkachuk, his 1997 season is a very good, underrated campaign. He led the league in goals, and topped 200 PIMs. No one else has ever done that. That season doesn't get the kind of respect it deserves, IMO.

2. The Gary Roberts comparison is interesting. To me, though, Tkachuk was always the American Brendan Shanahan. Same age, size, and playing style. They went head-to-head playing for their countries in 1996 and 2002, too. But Shanahan won a bunch of Cups, produced more in the back-half of his career, and I think his leadership was more highly thought of than Tkachuk's. Tkachuk, in contrast, never got it together in the playoffs, had some off-ice issues, and didn't do much in the late stages of his career.

3. Slightly off-topic but the whole Nagano bust-up is overrated in my opinion. . . I remember Curtis Joseph saying that the furniture there was very flimsy and couldn't support the bigger players. He said that Lindros and Pronger both broke chairs just by sitting in them. Maybe he was trying to protect his teammates (he was an Oiler at the time, with Guerin and Weight), but I never put much weight in that whole thing because of that.