Karlsson vs Trade 'Haul' Stat Comparison Thread

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by IlTerrifico, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. IlTerrifico

    IlTerrifico Registered User

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    As the 2018-19 season looms, it will be fun to compare over time the results for Karl vs Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, Norris and the draft picks, to see the value that Dorion took in for a generational defenseman over time. I have a feeling that this will turn ugly if Karl resigns with the Sharks, but we'll see.

    Later on at the trade deadline, we can look at best return a team gets for the best star player with his contract up at the end of the season, traded for the last part of the season and the playoff run. That should show what value waiting for a trade may have yielded, let alone the stupidity of not trading Karl last February when he had 2 playoff years left, and instead waiting for camp to succeed in losing tons of leverage.

    On with the show, this is it....
     
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  2. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    I don’t really have a problem with the return for a rental but why the hell would you trade your franchise player and captain in the first place and if it really had to happen, why do it at the worst timing possible when you could have traded him last TD like you said or until you find a team he would instantly extend with this season, to avoid trading him as rental and get closer to his real value. You’d have until the TD to find the right trading partner and in the meantime, EK would help you have a better season when you don’t have your own first round pick

    The other problem I have is why do you trade your best D-man for no D-man of value? The 5 best pieces are young forwards and future picks
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
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  3. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    Well the last bit is answered by your first bit. But as for the TDL stuff, we don't actually know what was offered, though we can probably safely assume that no team was willing to offer their top prospects then, like they weren't doing this summer.

    We will likely never know what any of those teams offered, but given all of the talk of the dressing room issues, and the dictatorship vs democracy comments, I don't think keeping EK through most of the season would have been a good idea for anyone. Well, Colorado maybe.

    Sometimes you have to just cut bait and move on, there really is no reason to assume that EK would have garnered more, as even more of a rental at the TDL.

    Watching the team play, watching them run the offence through different players, watching the PP finally look dangerous, I'm not missing him much. I've been vocal enough about how disappointed I was in his disinterested play last year, and it's not something you want a bunch of kids around, especially from a guy who doesn't come to practice all the time, and doesn't have to play the same way as the rest of the team.

    Time to move on...
     
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  4. Gesus

    Gesus Melnyk is Trump Jr.

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    It was handled terribly by the organization and the return was underwhelming. Not prepared to let them sweep this mess under the rug yet.

    Should be interesting to see what the returns for Stone, Duchene & Dzingel will be. I sure hope we can do a lot better with them than we did with Karlsson. Need some blue chippers if they really want to be serious about this "rebuild."
     
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  5. DrunkUncleDenis

    DrunkUncleDenis Moderator

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    Oh, this will go well.

    It will be "fun" to compare eh. Ya. Sure. :laugh:
     
  6. Silencio

    Silencio Registered User

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    I'm sure Karlsson will have a good year with the Sharks. I also remember when Heatley was a "lock" to score 60 goals playing with Joe Thornton. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener, even if it grows in the winter in California.
     
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  7. Variable26

    Variable26 Global Matador

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    I really think there were other reasons to send him off for few prospects. We may never know.

    I think there’s a chance one of these kids turns into a first liner. Maybe even better... call me back in 3
     
  8. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    Fair enough. I mean I'm not suggesting you forget, and there will be endless complaining about it no doubt, but for those of us who want to watch and enjoy this upcoming season, you know us brainless sheep, it's time to move on and focus on our squad.

    I wouldn't count on Stone or Duchene being traded so quickly, EK was a whole different beast on several fronts.
     
  9. Emerica

    Emerica ayyyy

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    Dis gon be gud
     
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  10. Gesus

    Gesus Melnyk is Trump Jr.

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    I don't fault anyone for wanting to just enjoy the hockey, but I just can't let go of it personally, because I do think there's a whole lot of dishonesty about why we're "rebuilding", but that's a story for another thread.

    At this point I'm less concerned about the idea they would be willing to stay as I am about us actually presenting offers that convinces them to stay. Nothing this organization has done in the last 18 months has made me think we have that kind of money to throw around or are willing to. We haven't made a significant financial commitment in years, and even the latest one in Hoffman was relatively small in both term and bonus money. Let's be honest, both of these guys are gonna get 8 year, 8-9 mil per season deals with large amounts of bonus money. That seems like a tall order after everything we've witnessed. danielpalfredsson presented a scenario where we may be able to overpay them to avoid the bonus money, but can we envision us doing that either?

    Essentially, I'll believe it when I see it, but until then, I don't think they've earned the grace to expect to have fans' confidence that they will make the necessary competitive offers to get it done. Ball is in their court now and they need to pay up for the little star talent they have left, or live with the criticism.
     
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  11. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    Again fair enough, and I support the 'believe it when I see it' attitude. Personally I see tow outcomes, both have compelling elements of support, so I'm also waiting to see. I guess it makes me content that I can see realistic scenarios where they both stay. Not much in general, but given the state of affairs surrounding the team I see it as a huge win :)
     
  12. Gesus

    Gesus Melnyk is Trump Jr.

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    Would you say you're more concerned that we actually make competitive offers, or that they will want to stay?

    I worry that even if we somehow did pony up, it won't matter if the season goes poorly as expected. Neither will stay if we are a bottom feeder again imo.
     
  13. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    I think we can make solid offers, I think EK being gone was not really about money for either side. There was some bad blood there, and no one tried particularly hard to get a deal done.

    I'm not expecting a poor season. I'm not expecting a ton of wins, but I am expecting a hella competitive team that plays an exciting attacking style that will have enough wins to keep moral up and have teams wake up to play us.
     
  14. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    What do you mean my last bit is answered by my first bit? I find it absolutely ridiculous to trade a D-man of EK’s caliber without getting young D-men with potential in return, unless you are already kind rich at that position... but no instead Dorion went for forwards, our strongest position in the whole organization...

    Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Ryan, Pageau, Boedker (top-9 forwards), even Smith

    Potential: Tkachuk, Brown, Batherson, Chlapik, Formenton, White, Gagne, Luchuk, Paul, Nurmi, Gruden, Crookshank, etc

    If instead the focus would have been to target the best 2 young D-men possible, then it would have gone a long way in making the team more competitive now and going forward... Heck, I would rather have Theodore (or even Brannstrom), Miller and a 2nd than « 7 pieces »

    Chabot-Miller
    Theodore-Ceci
    Lajoie-Wideman
    Borowiecki

    And still Jaros, Wolanin, JBD and Tychonick developing. Could even package Ceci for a youngish forward

    You know what is the problem with my proposal? $$$$$$$ Miller and Theodore are « expensive »

    In the end, there won’t be enough spots for all the forwards anyway, so you’ll have to trade them.

    Now regarding the value, we got forced to trade EK as a « rental » because Melnyk probably set another crippling deadline « before training camp », of course no one offered a better package because no team wanted to take the risk to watch EK walk at the end of the year. That could seriously put any team in trouble going forward.

    Instead we should have waited, leaving EK in Ottawa to you help the team while we wait that he decides to extend with another team, giving hope to the fans that he could stay or at least that the team has a better season. Worst case scenario, we trade him as a rental, exactly like we did.

    Now if EK was really a « locker room » cancer it changes everything but yeah, not sure we will ever know

    Edit : what if new ownership/partnership comes in with Alfie part of it and EK wants to come back in Ottawa, you don’t sign him?
     
  15. Gesus

    Gesus Melnyk is Trump Jr.

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    I wish I could share your optimism on both fronts, but they've lost me. We shall see I guess.
     
  16. BonkTastic

    BonkTastic ಠ_ಠ

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    Why would you willingly torture yourself by actively tracking this?
     
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  17. The Lewler

    The Lewler GOAT BUDGET AINEC

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    Valid question.

    I'll at least allow that it will provide numerical support for those who claim the deal was a massive fail.

    eg.
    Win-Loss record? Worse
    Production of involved players? Worse
     
  18. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    I don't know anymore, did you edit your post? I forget my train of thought now, no worries. It would have been nice to get some D, but I would seem as though he took what he could get as it does take two to tango.

    As far as if EK wanted to come back, sure why not, as long as he understands that it's not 'his' team anymore, there may be another group leading the charge at that point.
     
  19. Acidrain66

    Acidrain66 Registered User

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    This is from your scouting assessment from the powerhouse Montreal Canadiens they play last Saturday??
     
  20. Blotto71

    Blotto71 Registered User

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    Can a poll be added? How is the thread going to get shut down without a poll?
     
  21. Countdown0

    Countdown0 #teamErik

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    I mean, its pretty obvious that the only ways Karlsson doesn't easily out perform the guys he was traded for this coming season is if he get's a bad injury or if the Sharks collapse.
     
  22. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    It sure is, but then again it's all we can go on at this point no? They looked great and were having a blast and the game was fun to watch. It bodes well after what we've seen all last year, and how lame the off season was.

    Lighten up, they played great, and the PP actually looked pretty good.
     
  23. Acidrain66

    Acidrain66 Registered User

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    I'm gonna say lay off the overhype meds your on and save it on a rainy day
     
  24. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    It's rainy here, and I'm excited about the season given what I have seen through camp and the preseason.

    Come now, you've never taken overhype meds, that would mess with your miserable meds, and you wouldn't want that...
     
  25. supsens

    supsens Registered User

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    Yes with the fans screaming for him to stay and him telling the media how he wants to stay,they should have traded him. He screwed over the team with refusing to say he was leaving.
    How about we score Karlsson 76 games 90 points and see if this package can match that over the next ten years?
     

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