Speculation: KARLSSON Megathread | Part III | MOD Warning Edition

[Joeyjoejoe]

With that new survey for season ticket holders going out, could that be a sign that new ownership is behind it? The direct question asking about the ownership issues and asking about logos. Hmmmmmmmm I don't know.

Or maybe I am too desperate.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If Karlsson isn't traded before training camp;

How does Karlsson handle it and what does he say? ... I would imagine something around.. "As of now I am an Ottawa Senator and there is a business side that is still going on but as of now I am ready to put that aside and help the team the best I can..."

How does Dorion handle it and what does he say? ... "We have made Erik an offer and we do not have a contract extension in place as of now, we will continue to talk going forward. If we can't come to an agreement we may have to look at going in a different direction. Right now Erik Karlsson is very much an important part of this team." - no comment, no comment, no comment , no comment to the ensuing questions.

 

[Silencio]

With that new survey for season ticket holders going out, could that be a sign that new ownership is behind it? The direct question asking about the ownership issues and asking about logos. Hmmmmmmmm I don't know.

Or maybe I am too desperate.

Is there a list of the survey questions that has been posted?

 

[Punchbowl]

Heck, even Turris has straight up said that he was traded because of ownership, lol. How much more proof do we need?

Dorion has been very clever in with his trades under these circumstances. He managed to turn these potential losses into solid assets. Turris into Duchene. Zibanejad into Brassard which gave us a solid playoff run, then managed to flip him around for a 1st round pick, which we flipped again to draft the two guys we really wanted in the late 1st round. Not only that, but both those trades were 3-way deals, which are incredibly difficult these days, and he pulled two off in the span of a few months. One of which was so clever, the league initially rejected it because they hadn't seen something like that before, and it seemed like a loophole.

I think you’re giving Dorion a little too much credit here.

The Duchene trade may end up being the most disastrous blunder of Dorion’s career if we hand the Avs Jack Hughes next year. It’s way too early to call it a clever move.

That trade will all come down to whether Duchene re-signs and where the 1st round pick lands next year.

Dorion is literally gambling with this trade — if we don’t make the playoffs next season, we’re leaving it up to a Bingo machine to decide whether or not it was a franchise-crippling mistake.

 

[Que]

With that new survey for season ticket holders going out, could that be a sign that new ownership is behind it? The direct question asking about the ownership issues and asking about logos. Hmmmmmmmm I don't know.

Or maybe I am too desperate.

NOT DESPERATE ENOUGH!!!

(Please tell me you voiced displeasure for 3D centurion and want the old 2D logo back?)

 

[JD1]

Its funny because to you adding 4th liners in wingels stalberg and burrows is adding talent. Not sure but i think there is something between HOF talent and 4th liners. We needed more scoring punch and an upgrade on the backend to take pressure off Karlsson so we got a healthy scratch a fourth line winger and the corpse of Burrows extended two more years. Maybe you are right, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, better to move on.

no. you still don't get it and now you are putting words where they don't belong

the kind of talent that is missing from our lineup is not acquirable thru trades or UFA.

adding spare parts at the TDL helped our run but our run ended in the same way runs end for teams without the two or more HoF players. we didn't win.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

He just protected the younger guy with more value, and it was the right move even if we all miss Karlsson having a competent partner. Ceci and many other more important players are now up for new contracts though, so all cards are on the table especially for a team hamstrung by such a low strict budget and inability to pay huge bonus money. I think we do keep him like you do, but i dont think it has anything to do with saving face from the expansion draft.

Oh agree, I don't think it is a case of saving face .......... but his critics, which there are many, could see it that way.

There was no logical reason to have protected the older Methot, in the twilight of his career, over the younger, at the beginning of his career, Ceci, who for the last three seasons, has played the most TOI, other than EK65.

Yes, if they can't work out a deal prior to arbitration, and Ceci "wins" the arbitration hearing, ending up with a contract that is not in line with Pierre Dorion's plan, he could end up being traded.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Heck, even Turris has straight up said that he was traded because of ownership, lol. How much more proof do we need?

Dorion has been very clever in with his trades under these circumstances. He managed to turn these potential losses into solid assets. Turris into Duchene. Zibanejad into Brassard which gave us a solid playoff run, then managed to flip him around for a 1st round pick, which we flipped again to draft the two guys we really wanted in the late 1st round. Not only that, but both those trades were 3-way deals, which are incredibly difficult these days, and he pulled two off in the span of a few months. One of which was so clever, the league initially rejected it because they hadn't seen something like that before, and it seemed like a loophole.

“It’s tough because I think management did want to sign me. But I think that the owner didn’t. And that was his decision.”
Kyle Turris

Just because Turris "thinks" he was traded for the stated reason, does not make it true, and therefore not "proof" of anything....... just more speculation from a player who was traded.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think you’re giving Dorion a little too much credit here.

The Duchene trade may end up being the most disastrous blunder of Dorion’s career if we hand the Avs Jack Hughes next year. It’s way too early to call it a clever move.

That trade will all come down to whether Duchene re-signs and where the 1st round pick lands next year.

Dorion is literally gambling with this trade — if we don’t make the playoffs next season, we’re leaving it up to a Bingo machine to decide whether or not it was a franchise-crippling mistake.

So what should PD have done?

He had been perusing Duchene for almost a year, according to rumours, and when Turris indicated he was seeking a 6.5 Million X 6 Years, from Ottawa, PD had to look ahead to the EK65 extension, the Stone and Ceci contracts, and decide if he wanted Turris, or make the trade for Duchene.

Are you suggesting that PD would have known that in two years, his team would suck so bad, and that they would win the lottery for Hughes, if he decided to sign Turris for 6.5 X 6?

 

[Tuna99]

So what should PD have done?

He had been perusing Duchene for almost a year, according to rumours, and when Turris indicated he was seeking a 6.5 Million X 6 Years, from Ottawa, PD had to look ahead to the EK65 extension, the Stone and Ceci contracts, and decide if he wanted Turris, or make the trade for Duchene.

Are you suggesting that PD would have known that in two years, his team would suck so bad, and that they would win the lottery for Hughes, if he decided to sign Turris for 6.5 X 6?

Chemistry is as important to winning as talent, the fact that the team completely fell apart after the Turris trade and the locker room was broken after that shows what a massive miscalculation PD made in assessing the locker room dynamics.

After the trade EK made his get paid comments, Phaneuf was traded, Brass - this was a team that said Duchesne was a superstar, the team was better with a true #1 center, and would push them further in the playoffs.

The team fell apart and is in disarray now - paying Turris 6 x 6 and making the playoffs last year seems like a no brainer now, why trade Turris when Hoffman had the higher cap hit and was one dimensional?

Huge miscalculation by Dorion and he has to own it. He's trying to blame the dressing room but he puts the 20 players in the room and the 20 he chose can't play hockey together. 20 players united and focused is more powerful then 20 players with talent who don't want to play together.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

To be honest, this whole affair really shows to me just how loyal Karlsson is to the team. He wants to be here, he loves this team, but if you were Karlsson what would you do?

If you were Karlsson, and you were 28 years old, you want to win and you want to make some money, but the team you are in has an owner that won't spend to the cap in, at least, the next 3-4 years. And without spending to the cap, we wont win anything in 3-4 years with Toronto having such a deep offense and TB being TB. By then, Karlsson will be 31-32 and Toronto is likely entering financial distress and TB players regressing, but Buffalo might be the new top dog. Anyway, that's when I see Ottawa competing again under Melnyk: in 3-4 years when the new arena is built and he has more profit.

If you were EK, would you want that risk? You know your team doesnt even have a 1st next year so its not like you can acquire a franchise player in next year's draft anyway, so would you want to stay? Ottawa wont even be paying you what other teams can too in the meanwhile.

If Melnyk sells in the next year, then EK has to stay, if Melnyk doesn't sell, then he's tied EK's hands, tbh.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Chemistry is as important to winning as talent, the fact that the team completely fell apart after the Turris trade and the locker room was broken after that shows what a massive miscalculation PD made in assessing the locker room dynamics.

After the trade EK made his get paid comments, Phaneuf was traded, Brass - this was a team that said Duchesne was a superstar, the team was better with a true #1 center, and would push them further in the playoffs.

The team fell apart and is in disarray now - paying Turris 6 x 6 and making the playoffs last year seems like a no brainer now, why trade Turris when Hoffman had the higher cap hit and was one dimensional?

Huge miscalculation by Dorion and he has to own it. He's trying to blame the dressing room but he puts the 20 players in the room and the 20 he chose can't play hockey together. 20 players united and focused is more powerful then 20 players with talent who don't want to play together.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you're suggesting that Kyle Turris, who was asking Ottawa for 6.5 million for six years (not 6 x 6 ), was the linchpin that held Ottawa together, and once removed, all hopes for the playoffs were gone?

After watching Turris crash and burn in the latter stages of the season, and the playoffs, to me, kind of justified the reasons for not extending him for 6 years...... and that the Sens are better off with Duchene in the long rum.

PD was looking forward to this summmer, and needed top clear salary for the EK65 Extention and the Stone Ceci contracts ........ so Turris and the other players traded away to clear money for these contracts were going to happen no matter what.

 

[Tuna99]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you're suggesting that Kyle Turris, who was asking Ottawa for 6.5 million for six years (not 6 x 6 ), was the linchpin that held Ottawa together, and once removed, all hopes for the playoffs were gone?

After watching Turris crash and burn in the latter stages of the season, and the playoffs, to me, kind of justified the reasons for not extending him for 6 years...... and that the Sens are better off with Duchene in the long rum.

PD was looking forward to this summmer, and needed top clear salary for the EK65 Extention and the Stone Ceci contracts ........ so Turris and the other players traded away to clear money for these contracts were going to happen no matter what.

Makes no sense, you extend EK and Stone long term, where is the money to sign a Duchesne who you just brought in to take your franchise to the next leve.

Was a Turris the glue that held the Sens together, neither of us know. Did the the Sens completely fall apart after the Turris trade - Yes.

Could they have freed up money by trading Hoffman to sign Turris and and use those assets acquired in a Hoffman trade to acquire Duchesne - yes.

The Duchesne trade was horrid. That's not on Duchesne, it's on Dorion.

Ottawa went from a team who the coach said 'had a soul and players care about each other' to a team who is trading their Captain, traded their 2 assistants and had to get rid of Hoffman because the locker room was broken.

Say what you want, the Turris trade was a disaster and Ottawa is now the laughing stock of all pro sports in North America - and that doesn't happen with 1 move, that happens by making a ton of very bad decisions over time (Spezza, Alfie, EK, Methot, Turris, Coaching hires. GM hires, ownership)

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I think things went sour before Turris trade. It was the Methot debacle where Phanneuf did not waive that set the stage for the distrust and expanding egos...

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Makes no sense, you extend EK and Stone long term, where is the money to sign a Duchesne who you just brought in to take your franchise to the next leve.

Was a Turris the glue that held the Sens together, neither of us know. Did the the Sens completely fall apart after the Turris trade - Yes.

Could they have freed up money by trading Hoffman to sign Turris and and use those assets acquired in a Hoffman trade to acquire Duchesne - yes.

The Duchesne trade was horrid. That's not on Duchesne, it's on Dorion.

Ottawa went from a team who the coach said 'had a soul and players care about each other' to a team who is trading their Captain, traded their 2 assistants and had to get rid of Hoffman because the locker room was broken.

Say what you want, the Turris trade was a disaster and Ottawa is now the laughing stock of all pro sports in North America - and that doesn't happen with 1 move, that happens by making a ton of very bad decisions over time (Spezza, Alfie, EK, Methot, Turris, Coaching hires. GM hires, ownership)

Reality is that 2016-17 probably wasn’t all roses behind the scenes. We got lucky in the ice and that covered up a lot.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

The hard thing to stomach is that we have some serious competition in the division now... and for a while at least. From a business standpoint, wouldn't be good to stand down for a while? Is that what we are doing? I am sure EK knows this.

I am sure some of the contract conversations have included this dialogue. There are the powerhouses, and there are the ones are not.

 

[Flamingo]

The hard thing to stomach is that we have some serious competition in the division now... and for a while at least. From a business standpoint, wouldn't be good to stand down for a while? Is that what we are doing? I am sure EK knows this.

I am sure some of the contract conversations have included this dialogue. There are the powerhouses, and there are the ones are not.

The team still has to make money if they decide to take the foot off the gas on the ice. Do you think Ottawa fans are willing to buy tickets through a stand-down?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The team still has to make money if they decide to take the foot off the gas on the ice. Do you think Ottawa fans are willing to buy tickets through a stand-down?

If it's framed and marketed properly...yes.

Anyone involved with sports will tell you it is cyclical in nature. It is incredibly rare for a team to be like the Red Wings and make the playoffs consistently for over two decades. Eventually, every team has to strip down and rebuild. Tinkering on the fly rarely works,and usually just prolongs the misery.

Rebuild as a young, fast, exciting team and fans will buy in.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

If it's framed and marketed properly...yes.

Anyone involved with sports will tell you it is cyclical in nature. It is incredibly rare for a team to be like the Red Wings and make the playoffs consistently for over two decades. Eventually, every team has to strip down and rebuild. Tinkering on the fly rarely works,and usually just prolongs the misery.

Rebuild as a young, fast, exciting team and fans will buy in.

I think the cynicism is too entrenched.

It's gonna take a few years of competitiveness to win back the "average" fan.

 

[operasen]

Melnyk is the issue now - he's done that to himself. I think fans are very mistrustful of him and will not support him. The minute he's confirmed the deal he's sold, fans will come back in droves.

 

[Xspyrit]

So what should PD have done?

He had been perusing Duchene for almost a year, according to rumours, and when Turris indicated he was seeking a 6.5 Million X 6 Years, from Ottawa, PD had to look ahead to the EK65 extension, the Stone and Ceci contracts, and decide if he wanted Turris, or make the trade for Duchene.

Are you suggesting that PD would have known that in two years, his team would suck so bad, and that they would win the lottery for Hughes, if he decided to sign Turris for 6.5 X 6?

I love Turris but personally I’m happy we didn’t give him that extension and that we used him as an asset to acquire a younger and better player. I don’t mind losing Bowers too, Sens have several young forwards that need to incorporate the team within the next few years or worse case scenario you keep 25 y/o Pageau around longer

Dzingel-Duchene-Stone
Tkachuk-Brown-White
Formenton-Chlapik-Batherson
Etc

I don’t see a spot for Bowers, he was a disposable asset

Now the problem is that damn 1st round pick. At the time of the trade, the team was coming off a great season and post season, and had a decent start of the year points wise, so with the Duchene acquisition and EK slowing going back into form, things were looking good and most people were confident in the team. The season did turn out into a real nightmare but if there’s one mistake hockey fans constantly do is to take what happened the prior season and think that’s exactly what will happen next season too. This team can easily rebound from a low finish.

Problem is they still haven’t injected one dollar in fixing team issues, or even extending current players... If they would, then we could be hopeful in not losing a high first round pick next draft. Luckily, at least it’s a team in the West but it could potentially be a lost opportunity to get a cost controlled really good young player.

The jury is still out of whether this trade will be good for the team or not but for that they need a rebound season

Note : I have seen people talk as it was an automatic lost trade because the Avs got Girard, etc. I mean great for Colorado, they did very well for a player they needed to move anyway, but seriously who cares? We are Sens fans and we have to look at the situation from our standpoint. A trade could absolutely be good for both teams involved (and maybe even 3 teams). A good example : Foligno for Methot

 

[Micklebot]

no. you still don't get it and now you are putting words where they don't belong

the kind of talent that is missing from our lineup is not acquirable thru trades or UFA.

adding spare parts at the TDL helped our run but our run ended in the same way runs end for teams without the two or more HoF players. we didn't win.

You said we added talent at the deadline, did you not? What words did I put in your mouth? did we or did we not add talent in your mind? Who beyond Wingels, Burrows, and Stalberg did we add at the deadline? Are they not the talent you speak of?

There was certainly higher end talent available to fill wholes in our lineup. Vanek isn't perfect, but he provides more than Burrows on the PP. Boyle would have made a much better bottom six option than Burrows too, cost about the same to acquire, and was an effective PP player for Tbay before the trade. Eaves was another option, again, not much more expensive than Burrows. Jordie Benn was available for a song, and would have shored up the D as would Stone, Shattenkirk if you wanted a higher end dman.

Go back to the offseason, and Taylor Hall, a hart winner now btw, was available, and apparently the ask was Ceci, but the point is, that talent beond the drudges of Burrows, Wingels, and Stalberg is certainly available.

But the point was never that we need to add HOF talent, you keep saying you need that historically to win a cup (which is kind of funny juxtaposed beside you talking about us being one goal from the SCF with trash like Burrows and Wingels as our acquired talent, but frankly, that playoffs was a bit of lightning in a bottle imo), but people aren't demanding a cup, they just want a competitive team that doesn't have such obvious holes. pick up a 2nd pair or complementary 1st pair dman when they are available and we have such an obvious need. Grab a middle six scoring forward for cheap, there's almost always someone available. We don't even seen to snif at them though, which is why people complain about not surrounding Karlsson with talent. Talent doesn't mean HOF guys that you have to draft, it means getting some complimentary guys that aren't 13th forwards or 6/7th dmen on any other team. Instead of Oduya, maybe pay the 2nd round pick to get back Methot, instead of Kelly the year before, look at Grabner, or Stempniak. Nobody is asking them to go after Radulov or Kovalchuk out of the KHL, just aim higher than a guy that might fit in on the 4th line or the bottom pair.

 

[Tuna99]

Could EK be convinced to go to Winnipeg for 1 year to win a Cup? Then go to Free Agency. Jets would be the best team in the NHL with Kalrsson, and he goes into free agency carrying a team to the Cup or the finals he’ll get McDavid $$$$.

Ottawa: Trouba, 1st round pick 2019, Logan Stanley #18 2016, Roslivic C 2015 #25 overall
Winnipeg: Karlsson

Toronto: Trouba
Ottawa: Nylander

 

[aragorn]

It's a little silly to suggest that the GM would know how certain players would interact in a dressing room especially if there is no history associated with it. These guys have been playing hockey their whole lives & have been in dressing rooms there whole life, how can anyone know how they will relate to other guys or new teammates? Most guys get along real well with everyone & some guys do not, some guys are very social & some guys not as much. I would think it's impossible to get 20 some guys to all get along perfectly for a number of yrs. I've been on championship teams where not everyone got along, they tolerated each other while they were playing together but would not have anything to do with each other outside of the game. C'est la vie.

I just don't see how this is the GM's fault, people expect way too much from people in certain positions. They do the best they can, their due diligence & hope the players will fit in, it's not a perfect science, it never is when people are involved. And how does he know that the girlfriends are not getting along & what can he do about that? Does your boss at work know everything there is to know about you? Does he pry into your business? Does he ask how your wife or girlfriends are doing & whether they are getting along? Seems kinda creepy. And how many players are going to report a problem to him about other players without being considered a rat? It's just not as easy as people are trying to make it seem especially when they have the benefit of hindsight.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

If it turns out that the Senspiracy is true, and Dorion has been stalling this entire time for a sale, where do we put the statue?

Outside of Gabriel Pizza in Orleans, hand stretched out for a high five?