Proposal: Kapanen + for Braun

Groo

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Let me start by saying AGAIN, I like Braun and I do believe he COULD be a big help to us but...
what if Braun is no better than Hainsey? What if Vlasic has been carrying him. What if we give up one of our best prospects, not to mention a pick in a deep draft for another mediocre 30+ D-man? Haven’t we been here before? Don’t you remember what it was like? Let’s try the patient approach and at least watch this group play together before we start shipping our assets off for short term help
What if's ?
 

TAYGB52

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What if's ?

That’s what trading is all about, what if’s. I’d rather not take that chance before we’ve even played a game. Some people on this site speak in absolutes as if they know more then the rest of us. I don’t know what Kapanen or the attached pick will become and I have no idea what Braun would look like on a first pair with Rielly...rather, on a first pair without Vlasic.
 

Groo

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That’s what trading is all about, what if’s. I’d rather not take that chance before we’ve even played a game. Some people on this site speak in absolutes as if they know more then the rest of us. I don’t know what Kapanen or the attached pick will become and I have no idea what Braun would look like on a first pair with Rielly...rather, on a first pair without Vlasic.
Amazing trades get done at all ?
 

Pinkfloyd

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First off, it was a joke. Do I have to put a little winky-guy-thing for you to grasp the concept of humour?
Second thing, how the hell did I ever undervalue anyone? EVER?
I came in to defend Sharks fans blasting Kapanen... “based on ignorance”!

Let's be adults here and not pretend like that wasn't a passive-aggressive jab that you're trying to mask as a joke. That was pretty transparent. As for your undervaluing, you've been doing it this whole time in this thread regarding Braun. And Sharks fans aren't blasting Kapanen. He's not a special prospect and he plays a position that they have an abundance of. We don't need nor want him so he's of little value to their organization but it isn't because we don't know who he is. We know who he is and he's a guy not worth trading Braun for when we have guys like Kane, Pavelski, Couture or Hertl, Donskoi, Labanc, and Meier all playing wing on our top three lines. Kapanen is not better than any of them and it's not even close at this stage.

There have been numerous Leafs fans that have suggested that they would only trade someone like Kapanen or someone like Carrick one-for-one for Braun and that's it. That is criminally underrating Braun.
 

TAYGB52

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Let's be adults here and not pretend like that wasn't a passive-aggressive jab that you're trying to mask as a joke. That was pretty transparent. As for your undervaluing, you've been doing it this whole time in this thread regarding Braun. And Sharks fans aren't blasting Kapanen. He's not a special prospect and he plays a position that they have an abundance of. We don't need nor want him so he's of little value to their organization but it isn't because we don't know who he is. We know who he is and he's a guy not worth trading Braun for when we have guys like Kane, Pavelski, Couture or Hertl, Donskoi, Labanc, and Meier all playing wing on our top three lines. Kapanen is not better than any of them and it's not even close at this stage.

There have been numerous Leafs fans that have suggested that they would only trade someone like Kapanen or someone like Carrick one-for-one for Braun and that's it. That is criminally underrating Braun.
Have you ever considered that maybe it’s your evaluations that are incorrect?
 

Pinkfloyd

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Have you ever considered that maybe it’s your evaluations that are incorrect?

It's been considered but the evidence points to my evaluations being correct and yours being nothing more than talking points rather than anything substantive. The Sharks aren't going to value Kapanen very much with all the wingers they have that are better than him. Braun is a legitimate top four defenseman on a large majority of teams. The latter has more value than the former. Come up with a coherent argument to the contrary and I'll certainly consider it. You haven't even begun to do that in this thread. Your responses are mostly just reactionary mudslinging over anything logical.
 

TAYGB52

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Have you ever considered that it isn't worth posting 30 times to defend the value of a guy who is 22 years old and has scored 10 points in 55 NHL games?
I haven’t considered that, no.
I’ve considered that I’m wasting my time arguing with some posters on here cause it’s like banging my head against a wall.
I’ve considered that a lot of us on here seem to think that we’re smarter then everyone else. That’s why I try and state my opinions as nothing more then opinions whereas
some people on here speak in absolutes and certainties.
I’ve considered that no matter how much sense you make on here some people are just so dug in that no amount of logic will change anything.
 

TAYGB52

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It's been considered but the evidence points to my evaluations being correct and yours being nothing more than talking points rather than anything substantive. The Sharks aren't going to value Kapanen very much with all the wingers they have that are better than him. Braun is a legitimate top four defenseman on a large majority of teams. The latter has more value than the former. Come up with a coherent argument to the contrary and I'll certainly consider it. You haven't even begun to do that in this thread. Your responses are mostly just reactionary mudslinging over anything logical.
Reactionary mud slinging? Okay, well, I’m done with you, hero!
Have a good one
 

Pinkfloyd

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I haven’t considered that, no.
I’ve considered that I’m wasting my time arguing with some posters on here cause it’s like banging my head against a wall.
I’ve considered that a lot of us on here seem to think that we’re smarter then everyone else. That’s why I try and state my opinions as nothing more then opinions whereas
some people on here speak in absolutes and certainties.
I’ve considered that no matter how much sense you make on here some people are just so dug in that no amount of logic will change anything.

Reactionary mud slinging? Okay, well, I’m done with you, hero!
Have a good one

You've made a grand total of zero logical and coherent points. Then the last part is you proving me right. Thank you and you have a good one yourself.
 
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TAYGB52

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Gee........when EVERYONE is arguing with you over your moronic posts, maybe the problem is not all of them? Maybe the problem is your moronic posts?
Everyone? I counted a couple of Sharks fans and you. A handful of clowns who say nothing more then “I’m right and you’re wrong” are not going to dissuade me! Are you under the impression that your opinion means something around here? You’re like ever drunken idiot I talk to at my bar...you seem to think that the conversation ends when you stop speaking. I still haven’t heard one thing one this topic from you geniuses other than “he’s 22...played 55 games...no points...nothing much of value...”
My only point in return has been “he’s ONLY 22...ONLY played 55 games...on a DEEP team...on a FOURTH line...” If you think that my point sounds moronic, all the power to you! But I’ll give the KID a CHANCE before I start pretending to understand his value
 

Pinkfloyd

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Everyone? I counted a couple of Sharks fans and you. A handful of clowns who say nothing more then “I’m right and you’re wrong” are not going to dissuade me! Are you under the impression that your opinion means something around here? You’re like ever drunken idiot I talk to at my bar...you seem to think that the conversation ends when you stop speaking. I still haven’t heard one thing one this topic from you geniuses other than “he’s 22...played 55 games...no points...nothing much of value...”
My only point in return has been “he’s ONLY 22...ONLY played 55 games...on a DEEP team...on a FOURTH line...” If you think that my point sounds moronic, all the power to you! But I’ll give the KID a CHANCE before I start pretending to understand his value

Your other point is that you wouldn't value him over Braun even when your team has that very need. That evaluation is not based on anything factual. It's just a feeling and an unsubstantiated feeling at that.
 

TAYGB52

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Your other point is that you wouldn't value him over Braun even when your team has that very need. That evaluation is not based on anything factual. It's just a feeling and an unsubstantiated feeling at that.
??? Let me clarify it one last time.
I like Braun. I think he would be a great pickup for us. But...I’m not willing to give up a recent first rounder that has done everything to warrant his opportunity with us for him even though we could use some help on the backend.
I don’t know if Braun is a true top-four defencemen without Vlasic.
You still with me?
I would rather give our defence, as it currently stands, a chance before using young assets to plug holes that might not be all serious.
Ps I love that my opinions are just “unsubstantiated feelings” where as yours should be taken as gospel
 

Pinkfloyd

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??? Let me clarify it one last time.
I like Braun. I think he would be a great pickup for us. But...I’m not willing to give up a recent first rounder that has done everything to warrant his opportunity with us for him even though we could use some help on the backend.
I don’t know if Braun is a true top-four defencemen without Vlasic.
You still with me?
I would rather give our defence, as it currently stands, a chance before using young assets to plug holes that might not be all serious.
Ps I love that my opinions are just “unsubstantiated feelings” where as yours should be taken as gospel

You didn't need to clarify anything. I already know your stance on it. I'm just repeatedly informing you of its ignorance. Braun has played top four minutes for the past six seasons. Someone who is not a top four d-man on their own plays their way out of that position in the NHL. Nobody carries someone to that extent. Nobody especially on the back end. Not being willing to trade a 22nd overall pick four years out of his draft when he's yet to solidify an NHL roster spot at 22 just screams of irrational bias. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of trade value. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what organizations have and don't have.

I'm not saying you should take my opinions as gospel. I'm still waiting on you to support your feelings with anything resembling facts. If Kapanen plays in the NHL this season consistently, it'll be the first year he does it. You don't seem to question anything about his ability to do so given his history yet feel like it's warranted to question a d-man's ability to be top four after doing so for the past six seasons and also pretend like it's impossible to assess a player's abilities on his own regardless of who he plays with as if one can carry another defensively to such an extent.

My feelings are substantiated by evidence like Braun's TOI, Kapanen's GP and production, and by looking at teams around the league and what their depth charts look like. Sharks have absolutely no need for someone like Kapanen. The Sharks have at least six wingers better than him so they would have no place in their lineup for him since having him on the 4th line is a waste of his talents and whatever assets would be needed to acquire him. In a more general way, late 1st round picks who are wingers that are still looking to solidify their spot on an NHL roster at 22 are worth less than top four d-men.

You're not going to find very many comparisons to make where someone like Kapanen at his age and experience pulled a top four d-man like Braun.
 
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Cotton

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You didn't need to clarify anything. I already know your stance on it. I'm just repeatedly informing you of its ignorance. Braun has played top four minutes for the past six seasons. Someone who is not a top four d-man on their own plays their way out of that position in the NHL. Nobody carries someone to that extent. Nobody especially on the back end. Not being willing to trade a 22nd overall pick four years out of his draft when he's yet to solidify an NHL roster spot at 22 just screams of irrational bias. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of trade value. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what organizations have and don't have.

I'm not saying you should take my opinions as gospel. I'm still waiting on you to support your feelings with anything resembling facts. If Kapanen plays in the NHL this season consistently, it'll be the first year he does it. You don't seem to question anything about his ability to do so given his history yet feel like it's warranted to question a d-man's ability to be top four after doing so for the past six seasons and also pretend like it's impossible to assess a player's abilities on his own regardless of who he plays with as if one can carry another defensively to such an extent.

My feelings are substantiated by evidence like Braun's TOI, Kapanen's GP and production, and by looking at teams around the league and what their depth charts look like. Sharks have absolutely no need for someone like Kapanen. The Sharks have at least six wingers better than him so they would have no place in their lineup for him since having him on the 4th line is a waste of his talents and whatever assets would be needed to acquire him. In a more general way, late 1st round picks who are wingers that are still looking to solidify their spot on an NHL roster at 22 are worth less than top four d-men.

You're not going to find very many comparisons to make where someone like Kapanen at his age and experience pulled a top four d-man like Braun.

What talents are those that will be wasted on the 4th line?
 

TAYGB52

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You didn't need to clarify anything. I already know your stance on it. I'm just repeatedly informing you of its ignorance. Braun has played top four minutes for the past six seasons. Someone who is not a top four d-man on their own plays their way out of that position in the NHL. Nobody carries someone to that extent. Nobody especially on the back end. Not being willing to trade a 22nd overall pick four years out of his draft when he's yet to solidify an NHL roster spot at 22 just screams of irrational bias. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of trade value. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what organizations have and don't have.

I'm not saying you should take my opinions as gospel. I'm still waiting on you to support your feelings with anything resembling facts. If Kapanen plays in the NHL this season consistently, it'll be the first year he does it. You don't seem to question anything about his ability to do so given his history yet feel like it's warranted to question a d-man's ability to be top four after doing so for the past six seasons and also pretend like it's impossible to assess a player's abilities on his own regardless of who he plays with as if one can carry another defensively to such an extent.

My feelings are substantiated by evidence like Braun's TOI, Kapanen's GP and production, and by looking at teams around the league and what their depth charts look like. Sharks have absolutely no need for someone like Kapanen. The Sharks have at least six wingers better than him so they would have no place in their lineup for him since having him on the 4th line is a waste of his talents and whatever assets would be needed to acquire him. In a more general way, late 1st round picks who are wingers that are still looking to solidify their spot on an NHL roster at 22 are worth less than top four d-men.

You're not going to find very many comparisons to make where someone like Kapanen at his age and experience pulled a top four d-man like Braun.
One-who has been Braun partner for most of those 6 years? A great dman like Vlasic can carry his partner quite a ways.
Two-repeatedly saying that a 22 year old that hasn’t made the team yet when he clearly has is showing your ignorance
Three-I may be incorrect on this point, but wasn’t it you that said you haven’t watched a lot of Leaf games or a lot of Kapanen? That’s my definition of “irrational bias”
Four-I have consistently said that I have no idea what Kapanen will be! Only that with his draft position,?pedigree and accomplishments at every other level, and most importantly, remember, I actually watch this kid play, what I’ve SEEN, that he’s got a real chance to be good. Whereas with Braun, I saw him play maybe 10 to 15 times last year at most, paired with the best shutdown defender in the league, which is why I’m not convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s a sure fire upgrade for us. At least not an upgrade I’m willing to part with a KID with Kapanen’s potential for. Got it
 

Pinkfloyd

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What talents are those that will be wasted on the 4th line?

Kapanen is a good shooter that can skate well but he's not defensively sound enough to be what most coaches will want on the 4th line and 4th lines tend to not have the kind of playmakers that maximize someone like Kapanen. Kadri could but that's going to be up to Kapanen's play to warrant staying there.

One-who has been Braun partner for most of those 6 years? A great dman like Vlasic can carry his partner quite a ways.
Two-repeatedly saying that a 22 year old that hasn’t made the team yet when he clearly has is showing your ignorance
Three-I may be incorrect on this point, but wasn’t it you that said you haven’t watched a lot of Leaf games or a lot of Kapanen? That’s my definition of “irrational bias”
Four-I have consistently said that I have no idea what Kapanen will be! Only that with his draft position,?pedigree and accomplishments at every other level, and most importantly, remember, I actually watch this kid play, what I’ve SEEN, that he’s got a real chance to be good. Whereas with Braun, I saw him play maybe 10 to 15 times last year at most, paired with the best shutdown defender in the league, which is why I’m not convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s a sure fire upgrade for us. At least not an upgrade I’m willing to part with a KID with Kapanen’s potential for. Got it

One, no, Vlasic cannot. Vlasic can't play defense for Braun. That is utterly ridiculous. Someone who is not top four quality isn't capable of playing defense against the best in the NHL.

Two, I didn't say he hadn't made the team. I said if he plays consistently this year in the NHL, it will be his first year of doing so. That is not the same thing. Argue what I said and don't build a straw man.

Three, you are incorrect. Toronto has been my second team for quite some time and I've seen many games of theirs over the years and more so now that my favorite player has been there.

Four, the saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. You don't know what Kapanen will be is not a sound argument to make to value over an established top four defenseman who provides something the Leafs desperately need which is solid defense from their blue liners. This line is, whether you know it or not, admitting that you're letting your lack of knowledge about Braun dictate your opinion of him. If you don't know by now that Braun is an established top four d-man and that is regardless of Vlasic's presence because Vlasic cannot play defense by himself or for anyone else then your opinion is not worth anything on the player in question. That's the bottom line.

Kapanen's potential is limited but even if he is as good as you think he could be, what are we talking about here? A 2nd line winger? Those are easy to get elsewhere and shouldn't be held on to like they're blue chip prospects or a stud young roster player when he very clearly is not. Quality defensemen are harder to get than quality wingers. The only exception to that is when those wingers are playmakers in the mold of Patrick Kane or Artemi Panarin. Neither of which Kapanen has the raw skill set to become because he simply doesn't have that kind of vision or passing ability.
 

Cotton

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Kapanen is a good shooter that can skate well but he's not defensively sound enough to be what most coaches will want on the 4th line and 4th lines tend to not have the kind of playmakers that maximize someone like Kapanen. Kadri could but that's going to be up to Kapanen's play to warrant staying there.



One, no, Vlasic cannot. Vlasic can't play defense for Braun. That is utterly ridiculous. Someone who is not top four quality isn't capable of playing defense against the best in the NHL.

Two, I didn't say he hadn't made the team. I said if he plays consistently this year in the NHL, it will be his first year of doing so. That is not the same thing. Argue what I said and don't build a straw man.

Three, you are incorrect. Toronto has been my second team for quite some time and I've seen many games of their over the years and more so now that my favorite player has been there.

Four, the saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. You don't know what Kapanen will be is not a sound argument to make to value over an established top four defenseman who provides something the Leafs desperately need which is solid defense from their blue liners. This line is, whether you know it or not, admitting that you're letting your lack of knowledge about Braun dictate your opinion of him. If you don't know by now that Braun is an established top four d-man and that is regardless of Vlasic's presence because Vlasic cannot play defense by himself or for anyone else then your opinion is not worth anything on the player in question. That's the bottom line.

Kapanen's potential is limited but even if he is as good as you think he could be, what are we talking about here? A 2nd line winger? Those are easy to get elsewhere and shouldn't be held on to like they're blue chip prospects or a stud young roster player when he very clearly is not. Quality defensemen are harder to get than quality wingers. The only exception to that is when those wingers are playmakers in the mold of Patrick Kane or Artemi Panarin. Neither of which Kapanen has the raw skill set to become because he simply doesn't have that kind of vision or passing ability.

Interesting take, his biggest assets are his Andreas Athanasiou like speed and his two way game. He's a good penalty killer too.

Seeing as he's on our roster as a 4th liner I think his assets are very useful there. He'll be a good forchecker and keep the tempo up alongside Andreas Johnsson.
 

TAYGB52

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Sep 20, 2018
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Kapanen is a good shooter that can skate well but he's not defensively sound enough to be what most coaches will want on the 4th line and 4th lines tend to not have the kind of playmakers that maximize someone like Kapanen. Kadri could but that's going to be up to Kapanen's play to warrant staying there.



One, no, Vlasic cannot. Vlasic can't play defense for Braun. That is utterly ridiculous. Someone who is not top four quality isn't capable of playing defense against the best in the NHL.

Two, I didn't say he hadn't made the team. I said if he plays consistently this year in the NHL, it will be his first year of doing so. That is not the same thing. Argue what I said and don't build a straw man.

Three, you are incorrect. Toronto has been my second team for quite some time and I've seen many games of theirs over the years and more so now that my favorite player has been there.

Four, the saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. You don't know what Kapanen will be is not a sound argument to make to value over an established top four defenseman who provides something the Leafs desperately need which is solid defense from their blue liners. This line is, whether you know it or not, admitting that you're letting your lack of knowledge about Braun dictate your opinion of him. If you don't know by now that Braun is an established top four d-man and that is regardless of Vlasic's presence because Vlasic cannot play defense by himself or for anyone else then your opinion is not worth anything on the player in question. That's the bottom line.

Kapanen's potential is limited but even if he is as good as you think he could be, what are we talking about here? A 2nd line winger? Those are easy to get elsewhere and shouldn't be held on to like they're blue chip prospects or a stud young roster player when he very clearly is not. Quality defensemen are harder to get than quality wingers. The only exception to that is when those wingers are playmakers in the mold of Patrick Kane or Artemi Panarin. Neither of which Kapanen has the raw skill set to become because he simply doesn't have that kind of vision or passing ability.
I don't think you have a clue and quite frankly i'm getting bored with you!
Braun is a top four on the sharks...that does not mean he is a top four on other teams!!!
Wasn't Hamonic a #2/3 on Long Island? Well he hasn't played like that in Calgary!
Do you see what i'm getting at? Just because Braun works on your top 2 pairings doesn't mean he will on the Leafs!
We don't have a Vlasic to pair him with and I'm not giving up one of our top prospects for a guy that might not be better than Hainsey in our top 4. IDK
Just like you don't know what Kapanen is or could be yet time and time again you choose to speak in absolutes with regards to him???!!!
 

Pinkfloyd

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Interesting take, his biggest assets are his Andreas Athanasiou like speed and his two way game. He's a good penalty killer too.

Seeing as he's on our roster as a 4th liner I think his assets are very useful there. He'll be a good forchecker and keep the tempo up alongside Andreas Johnsson.

I agree his speed is a big asset but his two-way game is not the big asset you claim it is. He has the skills for it if the desire to play defensively matches up to it but that has been critiqued in the past. If he can consistently show that commitment then he would be serviceable in the role but that's not going to make him some valuable trade piece. What will make him valuable is if those shooting skills and ability to get open in the offensive zone become a consistent producer. If not, and chances are it won't, he will be what a lot of wingers are when they're in that bubble of 3rd and 4th line level wingers. Easily replaceable and very limited on trade value and unlikely to pull in a top four defender.
 

Groo

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I don't think you have a clue and quite frankly i'm getting bored with you!
Braun is a top four on the sharks...that does not mean he is a top four on other teams!!!
Wasn't Hamonic a #2/3 on Long Island? Well he hasn't played like that in Calgary!
Do you see what i'm getting at? Just because Braun works on your top 2 pairings doesn't mean he will on the Leafs!
We don't have a Vlasic to pair him with and I'm not giving up one of our top prospects for a guy that might not be better than Hainsey in our top 4. IDK
Just like you don't know what Kapanen is or could be yet time and time again you choose to speak in absolutes with regards to him???!!!
You keep promising you'd stop for a few posts now
 

Pinkfloyd

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I don't think you have a clue and quite frankly i'm getting bored with you!
Braun is a top four on the sharks...that does not mean he is a top four on other teams!!!
Wasn't Hamonic a #2/3 on Long Island? Well he hasn't played like that in Calgary!
Do you see what i'm getting at? Just because Braun works on your top 2 pairings doesn't mean he will on the Leafs!
We don't have a Vlasic to pair him with and I'm not giving up one of our top prospects for a guy that might not be better than Hainsey in our top 4. IDK
Just like you don't know what Kapanen is or could be yet time and time again you choose to speak in absolutes with regards to him???!!!

I bet it's boring for you to be wrong this much and never learn anything.

Hamonic was a 2 or a 3 on the Islanders. He's a #4 in Calgary because they have more talent and they were playing better than him. The reality is that Braun has been pretty consistently in that #3 range and he'd be that in Toronto too because they have a need for a player of his capabilities. He would be one of their first two d-men on the ice during a PK. He would be put out there in defensive situations extensively because he has succeeded at that during his career. You don't need a Vlasic to pair with him for him to succeed. There is no evidence to suggest that he needs Vlasic to succeed. That is something you've made up in your head and are treating it as if it's a valid issue when it is not. Even if he weren't to be better than Hainsey, having another player at that level as an option is going to help the defensive play of the team overall especially if it pushes Zaitsev down to lesser competition that he would likely do well at. Depth on the blue line is a very good thing to have.

And I do know what Kapanen is or could be but that doesn't mean that his value should be treated as if it is on par with Braun or anyone simply because you don't know what he could be yet. That's just lazy.
 

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