Kap or A-Jo?

[GodEmperor]

1. You also saw his playoffs the year before though right?

2. Yea he was. He didn’t practice with an NHL team for a couple months. He’s very clearly over it now though and looks back to form.

3. You’re last point just shows how fickle this fan base is. At the start of last season this board was convince Nylander was better than Marner because Marner was going through his slump. And you know what, everything people are saying about Nylander now we heard about Marner 16 months ago.

Lazy? Check
Doesn’t go into the corners? Check
Doesn’t win puck battles? Check

People on this board wanted to trade him for a young D like Hanafin or Hamilton.

He wasn’t good the first month, that’s it. After that he wasn’t scoring because of puck luck. I remember in 2011-2012 when Patrick Kane had his down year and Hawks fans were talking about trading him for Ryan Miller lol. Sports fans in general are way too volatile.

Yep good playoffs, nothing spectacular, you know in sample sizes you use the most recent sample right?

I expect him not to be completely out of shape, Wilson missed the same amount of time and looks great. Let's not pretend Nylander can't go to the rink or there are some super special secret NHL drills that he somehow doesn't know despite being in the NHL.

Just because boards do things does not mean anything about my point, go back and find my posts saying that and then you'd have a point, you won't because I didn't make that point.

I have never heard any of these things said about Marner, he is someone who has ALWAYS laid it on the line.

Marner? Where did I say that? Oh you're strawmanning me, I guess that's what happens when you have no arguments, just make up stuff like you did about Marner and his play.

Realizing your potential takes hard work, dedication and effort, not just genetics, Nylander and his family have shown they don't have this in them, from his underwhelming father who could've been a lot better to his busting brother to Melander showing up fat and out of shape, now I know you want to ignore these data points, but they are all true.

Nylander may have excellent potential, maybe even Marner level, but he will likely never realize it.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Every trade is made with the cap in mind.
Has there been another team with so many high priced young players in a cap world? This seems like uncharted territory.

I don't think anyone is proposing to make a bad trade. You should do what's best for your team, consider all options and not worry about what other teams have done.
No confidence in Dubas? You don't feel Nylander would generate an immense return?

Of course you keep the cap in mind, but that wasn't really the question here, was it? It was about moving out the player due to cap concerns, and that won't happen.

And it is a bit of uncharted territory, but it's the direction the whole league is moving. Most of the cap space will go towards getting players paid in their prime, instead of rewarding them afterwards.

I don't think I've seen any return in any rumor about Nylander that I would consider an immense return. At best they have been decent.

I expect him not to be completely out of shape, Wilson missed the same amount of time and looks great. Let's not pretend Nylander can't go to the rink or there are some super special secret NHL drills that he somehow doesn't know despite being in the NHL.

Wilson was practicing the whole time. The thing that Babcock and ex-players said was crucial even before this thing started dragging out. Do you honestly believe that a player can get up to NHL speed on his own?

Realizing your potential takes hard work, dedication and effort, not just genetics, Nylander and his family have shown they don't have this in them, from his underwhelming father who could've been a lot better to his busting brother to Melander showing up fat and out of shape, now I know you want to ignore these data points, but they are all true.

You decided that he was fat because he couldn't keep up with the speed of the league, ignoring that Babcock and several ex-players pointed out that this would happen irregardless of the shape he showed up in. You deduced that he was fat due to how his face looked, while ignoring pictures that showed more than that. But now that he is flying around out there showing no signs of not being able to keep up, you ignore that his face looks exactly the same.

And nobody that knows anything Nylander would question his dedication and hard work off the ice. It's all he lives for.

 

[GBLeaf]

I'd like Leafs to keep both Kapanen and Johnsson.

But if I have to choose to keep one because we either can't afford them both, or one needs to be moved for RHD.

I'd move Kapanen.

- Will likely demand more $ than Johnsson
- Current trade value is probably higher than Johnsson's
- Leafs have more RW prospects that LW
- Johnsson has had less time in the top 6 but still scoring goals

Hurt to see that speed leave the team, but I think it would be the most sensible move. Especially if it returns a RHD of good age/contract.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Yep good playoffs, nothing spectacular, you know in sample sizes you use the most recent sample right?

I expect him not to be completely out of shape, Wilson missed the same amount of time and looks great. Let's not pretend Nylander can't go to the rink or there are some super special secret NHL drills that he somehow doesn't know despite being in the NHL.

Just because boards do things does not mean anything about my point, go back and find my posts saying that and then you'd have a point, you won't because I didn't make that point.

I have never heard any of these things said about Marner, he is someone who has ALWAYS laid it on the line.

Marner? Where did I say that? Oh you're strawmanning me, I guess that's what happens when you have no arguments, just make up stuff like you did about Marner and his play.

Realizing your potential takes hard work, dedication and effort, not just genetics, Nylander and his family have shown they don't have this in them, from his underwhelming father who could've been a lot better to his busting brother to Melander showing up fat and out of shape, now I know you want to ignore these data points, but they are all true.

Nylander may have excellent potential, maybe even Marner level, but he will likely never realize it.

Ok let’s do this again lol.

1. What? You know it’s bad to just disregard data right? Newer samples should be weighted more heavily than older ones yes, but just tossing the old data away is horrible especially when the new data only has a sample size of 7. Ideally we’d have an adjustment factor for the older samples.

2. Wilson was still allowed to practice with an NHL team though and use NHL facilities. He just wasn’t allowed to play. Nylander couldn’t. I guess he could’ve but then the NHLPA would’ve ripped him a new one.

3. How is it a straw man? You’re point was Nylander’s play has fallen and that Matthews and Marner have made progress every year while Nylander has not, and I pointed out that at the start of last year Marner was looking like he hadn’t made progress. You’re criteria for improvement is just an arbitrary cutoff point and had we looked at Marner at the start of last season and used the same criteria you just used, we would’ve came to the conclusion that Marner also hasn’t improved. And the entire idea that Nylander hasn’t improved is silly but I won’t get into that now lol

 

[RLF]

Every trade is made with the cap in mind.
Has there been another team with so many high priced young players in a cap world? This seems like uncharted territory.

Edmonton - when they gave RNH, Eberle and Hall big money compared to cap. If we should learn from other teams like suggested, how come this isn't mentioned as a reason not to.

I don't think anyone is proposing to make a bad trade. You should do what's best for your team, consider all options and not worry about what other teams have done.
No confidence in Dubas? You don't feel Nylander would generate an immense return?

Most that have suggested moving Nylander is to improve the team as a whole and for optimizing cap management as you said.
If you could get a top 4 RHD making a lot less than Willy and a high prospect for example, which allows you to probably sign Kap with the difference from the RHD hit and have the same combined cap hit as Willy alone does, the GM should consider it.
The scenario that you move a higher cap hit for a return to improve elsewhere when you have an internal player(s) that can produce as much or slightly less, but gives significant cap savings is used all the time. Like letting JVR go. People argued we won't miss him because of the others combined could pick up the scoring for less money. Kap and Johnsson combined will likely outproduce Willy for less money or at worst the same. Add a top 4 RHD and a high prospect to our mix from the trade and we are likely a better team and better cap managed. Unfortunately, bias gets in the way and we can only do this with players some don't like as much as other players they really like.

 

[RLF]

I'd like Leafs to keep both Kapanen and Johnsson.

But if I have to choose to keep one because we either can't afford them both, or one needs to be moved for RHD.

I'd move Kapanen.

- Will likely demand more $ than Johnsson
- Current trade value is probably higher than Johnsson's
- Leafs have more RW prospects that LW
- Johnsson has had less time in the top 6 but still scoring goals

Hurt to see that speed leave the team, but I think it would be the most sensible move. Especially if it returns a RHD of good age/contract.

I agree with the above, but you are omitting Kapanen's size advantage and he is one of our top Pkers as well. Kapanen can play a heavier games that Johnsson will struggle with as he is easily manhandled as it happens nightly. Kapanen is also getting basically NO PP time and Johnsson is on the 2nd PP unit. There is more to it than just the above. It's a real tough call which one if we did, or have to trade one.

 

[GBLeaf]

I agree with the above, but you are omitting Kapanen's size advantage and he is one of our top Pkers as well. Kapanen can play a heavier games that Johnsson will struggle with as he is easily manhandled as it happens nightly. Kapanen is also getting basically NO PP time and Johnsson is on the 2nd PP unit. There is more to it than just the above. It's a real tough call which one if we did, or have to trade one.

Yeah KK's PP duties are a big plus. His speed and ability to battle turn defence to attack so often.

Although our 2nd PP unit is almost a non entity. Last few games I don't think they've even got set up.

 

[GodEmperor]

Ok let’s do this again lol.

1. What? You know it’s bad to just disregard data right? Newer samples should be weighted more heavily than older ones yes, but just tossing the old data away is horrible especially when the new data only has a sample size of 7. Ideally we’d have an adjustment factor for the older samples.

2. Wilson was still allowed to practice with an NHL team though and use NHL facilities. He just wasn’t allowed to play. Nylander couldn’t. I guess he could’ve but then the NHLPA would’ve ripped him a new one.

3. How is it a straw man? You’re point was Nylander’s play has fallen and that Matthews and Marner have made progress every year while Nylander has not, and I pointed out that at the start of last year Marner was looking like he hadn’t made progress. You’re criteria for improvement is just an arbitrary cutoff point and had we looked at Marner at the start of last season and used the same criteria you just used, we would’ve came to the conclusion that Marner also hasn’t improved. And the entire idea that Nylander hasn’t improved is silly but I won’t get into that now lol

Just like you're disregarding his most recent playoffs.

Oh true, skating hard and not eating tons of food is so hard to do.

Marner had a rough 15 game stretch in his 2nd year, Nylander in his THIRD YEAR had a brutal 25 game stretch, big difference.

Everything is arbitrary and no idea wtf you're talking about Marner.

Oh for sure he's improved, 60 points, 61 points, on pace for 30 points. #MASSIVEIMPROVEMENT

 

[LeafFever]

Johnsson's TOI right now is a complete joke given his production.

 

[AnomX]

Why not sip on a kap-a-Jo and enjoy having both.


I'll see myself to the door....

 

[RLF]

Yeah KK's PP duties are a big plus. His speed and ability to battle turn defence to attack so often.

Although our 2nd PP unit is almost a non entity. Last few games I don't think they've even got set up.

True on the 2nd PP, but he is given the opportunity where Kap is not. Johnsson has 5PPP to Kap's 1. Kap has had significantly more 5v5 time. Johnsson's S% is high right now at 17.9% while Kap's is closer to norm at 13.6%. If you want to use other stats that are used here often. Johnsson's PDO would suggest he has been very "lucky" this year. Kap's luck is slightly better than team avg. Take all that with a grain of salt. They are both good players, although personally, I give the edge to Kap as more likely to be a better NHLer and fills a more needed role for the Leafs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Even though you SAID that anyone is tradeable to make the team better, we both know that's not really true now, is it?

We are done here.

Again with this BS. No, you don't "know" anything and and since you just can't stop with this condescending attitude like you care about "the team" and I don't, we are indeed done.

Get off your high horse and it might be worthwhile having a discussion with you, until then ...

 

[zeke]

Meh. points rate is down, possession rates purely driven by the partner. He isn't doing better.

My eye test says he's been awesome.

And his possession stats have jumped in a huge way.

And yes, his production rate is down slightly, but over that sample him scoring 1 more pt would make up that difference.

There is no evidence that he's having any issue whatsoever playing on the right side.

 

[Menzinger]

Most that have suggested moving Nylander is to improve the team as a whole and for optimizing cap management as you said.
If you could get a top 4 RHD making a lot less than Willy and a high prospect for example, which allows you to probably sign Kap with the difference from the RHD hit and have the same combined cap hit as Willy alone does, the GM should consider it.
The scenario that you move a higher cap hit for a return to improve elsewhere when you have an internal player(s) that can produce as much or slightly less, but gives significant cap savings is used all the time. Like letting JVR go. People argued we won't miss him because of the others combined could pick up the scoring for less money. Kap and Johnsson combined will likely outproduce Willy for less money or at worst the same. Add a top 4 RHD and a high prospect to our mix from the trade and we are likely a better team and better cap managed. Unfortunately, bias gets in the way and we can only do this with players some don't like as much as other players they really like.

Or folks think that thing quality for quantity packages tend to always favour the team getting quality.

You don’t trade a prime asset for the sake of convenience

 

[RLF]

Or folks think that thing quality for quantity packages tend to always favour the team getting quality.

You don’t trade a prime asset for the sake of convenience

Never said you should. How you came up with that from what I wrote, I got no idea.

 

[kb]

Again with this BS. No, you don't "know" anything and and since you just can't stop with this condescending attitude like you care about "the team" and I don't, we are indeed done.

Get off your high horse and it might be worthwhile having a discussion with you, until then ...

That's rich. Only one of us is on a high horse, and hint, it's not me. I have been talking hockey, and players, and movement, and how to improve the team. You have been talking about me, trying to mock me, and nothing about hockey.

Try to refute that. You can't.

I "know" because we wouldn't be having this conversation now, nor would it be at this point. I said someone was a good trade chip. You mocked that assertion instead of talking hockey. If you want to even bring up condescending, check your posts. All of them. Dismissive. Strawmen. No content, just derision.

Done.

 

[kb]

My eye test says he's been awesome.

And his possession stats have jumped in a huge way.

And yes, his production rate is down slightly, but over that sample him scoring 1 more pt would make up that difference.

There is no evidence that he's having any issue whatsoever playing on the right side.

Agree to disagree. Just got himself a dash one.

 

[Davidos193]

If Dubas keeps Johnsson over Kapanen, it's a big fail on his part. Kapanen is a keeper, hands down.

 

[Davidos193]

If I'm Dubas, I would sign Kapanen asap..the longer we wait, the more expensive he'll be. Lock him up on 3 year bridge deal

 

[HamiltonNHL]

If Dubas keeps Johnsson over Kapanen, it's a big fail on his part. Kapanen is a keeper, hands down.

Too bad we might not have money to keep both. Fingers crossed.

 

[TheShape]

Dubas is bridging both. I’m not worried

 

[kb]

My eye test says he's been awesome.

And his possession stats have jumped in a huge way.

And yes, his production rate is down slightly, but over that sample him scoring 1 more pt would make up that difference.

There is no evidence that he's having any issue whatsoever playing on the right side.

He was doing so well that he got taken off his offside and put back with Hainsey. How odd.

 

[zeke]

He was doing so well that he got taken off his offside and put back with Hainsey. How odd.

our coach is super odd, no doubt.

 

[Leafs87]

Unless you’re looking at future potential it’s hard not to pick Johnsson

Either way I think 2.5 for either is a pipe dream

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I'll take both s'il vous plaît.