Kane suspension? UPD 3 games per rule 40.4

[Lebanezer]

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'm way more worried about how Martin Jones plays against Vegas than the way Kane plays against them, that is far more concerning

He actually looked good in the 1st. Gave me false hope before his severe bout of goalie diarrhea returned.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Kane has an impact on the way the team plays because all the antics after the whistle leads to the team focusing more on hits/trash talking/running around than they are on sticking to playing good defense (this isn't just a Kane issue, others on the team seem to get into it with Vegas too). Once they lose focus, Vegas counter attacks and scores. You apparently have a different opinion but I don't see San Jose getting into these line brawls or constant after the whistle chirping against any other team except for Vegas who just happens to be the team that for whatever reason forces us to make boneheaded defensive play after boneheaded defensive play. It's the same issue we had back in the day when we let LA goon it up and distract us. It's the same reason we beat the hell out of Anaheim all the time when Perry and Getzlaf go crazy and we all laugh at them because we get more PP's and score more. When you get top players off their game and focused on **** after the whistle, they don't score as much.

It's only natural that if you are more worried about running around and hitting guys than you are about your defensive assignment, you will probably get beat more often than not and give up a great scoring chance...something we love to do Vegas.

I'm not sure how you can argue that Vegas getting him riled up is not the reason he finds himself suspended a 2nd time. The first time was a cross check to the head of Bellemare (another 4th line plug) well after the whistle in which Kane went out of his way to engage him. Again, why is a top 6 scorer wasting his time or energy on a guy playing 10 minutes a game?

The 2nd suspension was at the end of a game where Kane had already fought one guy for no reason and then decided to go after Engllend who was taking a few shots at him. Ultimately he pushed a ref, but the ref pushed him 10% of the way to blowing a gasket after Engllend got him 90% of the way there. Kane would never even be engaged with the ref in the first place had he not taken a massive hack at Engllend because he was mad he got cross checked.

It's not meaningless when he is one of 4 good top 6 scorers we have on the team and he's missing 2 games against a division rival who we will be battling against to win the division. Everyone here seems to be so up in arms when we don't get home ice because we cant seem to win these "meaningless games". The team loses to Vegas for a variety of reasons, but I think we can all agree the team has better odds of winning a game when they have more top 6 scorers on the ice not less. Kane taking himself out of these 2 games means we have less goal scorers. Kane playing like he's a 3rd/4th line grinder against Vegas in general means we are playing with someone who is more focused on fighting than he is on scoring...only one of those things helps the team win games.

Until one can legitimately quantify that impact, it's hard to put an appropriate amount of blame for the results of the games. Plenty of the times that Kane gets into these antics, the game is already decided and I still tend to blame the defense and puck play from those that carry it the most for the losses than Kane's shenanigans. Granted, I don't think Kane's stuff doesn't help any either but I don't put the bulk of the problems against Vegas on him. I put it more on coaching and poor commitment to smart puck placement and defense. They are often over-aggressive and give up the middle too easily and those mistakes are on pretty much everyone but I don't think it stems from Kane in the slightest. That issue was present before Kane was even acquired.

The first time with Bellemare was because Bellemare got in the way of Kane engaging the guy he wanted to engage with which was Nate Schmidt who was going back and forth with Pavelski with stick work. Kane's suspension there was just being careless with his stick more than it was being riled up.

And this time, quite simply it is a mischaracterization of events to call what Kane did going after Engelland. Kane was playing the game. Part of playing the game is checking players. Calling a retaliatory slash because Engelland kept tying him up and trying to engage is just silly in this context. Kane repeatedly kept trying to stay in the flow of play and the ref and Engelland both continued to make something more of it. He wasn't mad at the cross-check. He was mad at continuously being tied up for no reason when play is going on that he's trying to stay into.

It's the first three games of the season and they're games that are winnable with or without him. And if they happen to lose them all, they can make up for it with another 79 games to be played. And if they don't get home ice, they can win a series against anyone without it as has been proven time and time again to happen.

I think you overestimate to an extreme degree how much the first three games of the season actually mean on the whole. If you can cherry pick these three games as if it means anything on its own to the final standings at the end of the year, I can pick any three from any other of the 79 games that remain and show you the same thing. The difference is that I can show you significantly more. There are a ginormous amount of reasons a team places in the standings where they do. Pointing to the first three is just lame cherry picking and it's obviously being done to continue on the Kane hate train. And I get why one would hate Kane but from the perspective of the argument, it's weak.

Last year, we couldn't get home ice because you can pick between EK65's injury and initial integration to the team, you can look at the goaltending, you can look at the hyper aggressive system we play, we can look at the special teams leaving some to be desired on both sides, and you can look at the injury to Radim Simek as well. There's plenty to look at and it's not important what happened in any given three game stretch.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Kane has an impact on the way the team plays because all the antics after the whistle leads to the team focusing more on hits/trash talking/running around than they are on sticking to playing good defense (this isn't just a Kane issue, others on the team seem to get into it with Vegas too). Once they lose focus, Vegas counter attacks and scores. You apparently have a different opinion but I don't see San Jose getting into these line brawls or constant after the whistle chirping against any other team except for Vegas who just happens to be the team that for whatever reason forces us to make boneheaded defensive play after boneheaded defensive play. It's the same issue we had back in the day when we let LA goon it up and distract us. It's the same reason we beat the hell out of Anaheim all the time when Perry and Getzlaf go crazy and we all laugh at them because we get more PP's and score more. When you get top players off their game and focused on **** after the whistle, they don't score as much.

It's only natural that if you are more worried about running around and hitting guys than you are about your defensive assignment, you will probably get beat more often than not and give up a great scoring chance...something we love to do Vegas.

I'm not sure how you can argue that Vegas getting him riled up is not the reason he finds himself suspended a 2nd time. The first time was a cross check to the head of Bellemare (another 4th line plug) well after the whistle in which Kane went out of his way to engage him. Again, why is a top 6 scorer wasting his time or energy on a guy playing 10 minutes a game?

The 2nd suspension was at the end of a game where Kane had already fought one guy for no reason and then decided to go after Engllend who was taking a few shots at him. Ultimately he pushed a ref, but the ref pushed him 10% of the way to blowing a gasket after Engllend got him 90% of the way there. Kane would never even be engaged with the ref in the first place had he not taken a massive hack at Engllend because he was mad he got cross checked.

It's not meaningless when he is one of 4 good top 6 scorers we have on the team and he's missing 2 games against a division rival who we will be battling against to win the division. Everyone here seems to be so up in arms when we don't get home ice because we cant seem to win these "meaningless games". The team loses to Vegas for a variety of reasons, but I think we can all agree the team has better odds of winning a game when they have more top 6 scorers on the ice not less. Kane taking himself out of these 2 games means we have less goal scorers. Kane playing like he's a 3rd/4th line grinder against Vegas in general means we are playing with someone who is more focused on fighting than he is on scoring...only one of those things helps the team win games.

So much wrong here. This is not how actual highly competitive games of hockey work out. Sure sometimes but not as a rule. Intimidation and chirping and other shit disturbing antics actually focus most players in more not less. I know plenty of soft people think that the physical side of hockey doesn't actually affect outcomes but that's just being naive. Cup checking guys when the ref isn't looking, talking shit about their Mom, their weird face, their life choices, etc... It's all fair game.

Your comment about Getz and Perry is just wrong too. When they were in their prime, they roughed up the Sharks and won. Perry is a perfect example of a shit disturber who won. Most of the time Kane chirped and hit and went after the other team last season it was fine and helped focus the team and they won. I guarantee you won't find anyone on the Sharks who has a problem with Kane getting into it with guys. I do think they were disappointed in the interaction with the ref solely because he is missing games and they want him on the ice. The want him to stay on the right side of the line as we all do. But they don't begrudge a guy thats emotionally invested that way. That kind of stuff dials you in and gives you a little boost because you want to crush the other team after those altercations.

Until one can legitimately quantify that impact, it's hard to put an appropriate amount of blame for the results of the games. Plenty of the times that Kane gets into these antics, the game is already decided and I still tend to blame the defense and puck play from those that carry it the most for the losses than Kane's shenanigans. Granted, I don't think Kane's stuff doesn't help any either but I don't put the bulk of the problems against Vegas on him. I put it more on coaching and poor commitment to smart puck placement and defense. They are often over-aggressive and give up the middle too easily and those mistakes are on pretty much everyone but I don't think it stems from Kane in the slightest. That issue was present before Kane was even acquired.

The first time with Bellemare was because Bellemare got in the way of Kane engaging the guy he wanted to engage with which was Nate Schmidt who was going back and forth with Pavelski with stick work. Kane's suspension there was just being careless with his stick more than it was being riled up.

And this time, quite simply it is a mischaracterization of events to call what Kane did going after Engelland. Kane was playing the game. Part of playing the game is checking players. Calling a retaliatory slash because Engelland kept tying him up and trying to engage is just silly in this context. Kane repeatedly kept trying to stay in the flow of play and the ref and Engelland both continued to make something more of it. He wasn't mad at the cross-check. He was mad at continuously being tied up for no reason when play is going on that he's trying to stay into.

It's the first three games of the season and they're games that are winnable with or without him. And if they happen to lose them all, they can make up for it with another 79 games to be played. And if they don't get home ice, they can win a series against anyone without it as has been proven time and time again to happen.

I think you overestimate to an extreme degree how much the first three games of the season actually mean on the whole. If you can cherry pick these three games as if it means anything on its own to the final standings at the end of the year, I can pick any three from any other of the 79 games that remain and show you the same thing. The difference is that I can show you significantly more. There are a ginormous amount of reasons a team places in the standings where they do. Pointing to the first three is just lame cherry picking and it's obviously being done to continue on the Kane hate train. And I get why one would hate Kane but from the perspective of the argument, it's weak.

Last year, we couldn't get home ice because you can pick between EK65's injury and initial integration to the team, you can look at the goaltending, you can look at the hyper aggressive system we play, we can look at the special teams leaving some to be desired on both sides, and you can look at the injury to Radim Simek as well. There's plenty to look at and it's not important what happened in any given three game stretch.

Agree with all of this.

Another thing neglected in all of this talk about Kane and Engelland is that Kane did his job and got Engelland all pissed off. Engelland was following Kane around not paying attention to the flow of the game. If the Sharks had a break go back to the Vegas end, they would have had Engelland out of position and missing his assignments. If the dumb f*** linesman hadn't intervened, Engelland likely would have taken a penalty and put the Sharks on the power play. I know, that really goes against the narrative against Kane though.

 

[SjMilhouse]

So much wrong here. This is not how actual highly competitive games of hockey work out. Sure sometimes but not as a rule. Intimidation and chirping and other **** disturbing antics actually focus most players in more not less. I know plenty of soft people think that the physical side of hockey doesn't actually affect outcomes but that's just being naive. Cup checking guys when the ref isn't looking, talking **** about their Mom, their weird face, their life choices, etc... It's all fair game.

Your comment about Getz and Perry is just wrong too. When they were in their prime, they roughed up the Sharks and won. Perry is a perfect example of a **** disturber who won. Most of the time Kane chirped and hit and went after the other team last season it was fine and helped focus the team and they won. I guarantee you won't find anyone on the Sharks who has a problem with Kane getting into it with guys. I do think they were disappointed in the interaction with the ref solely because he is missing games and they want him on the ice. The want him to stay on the right side of the line as we all do. But they don't begrudge a guy thats emotionally invested that way. That kind of stuff dials you in and gives you a little boost because you want to crush the other team after those altercations.

Agree with all of this.

Another thing neglected in all of this talk about Kane and Engelland is that Kane did his job and got Engelland all pissed off. Engelland was following Kane around not paying attention to the flow of the game. If the Sharks had a break go back to the Vegas end, they would have had Engelland out of position and missing his assignments. If the dumb **** linesman hadn't intervened, Engelland likely would have taken a penalty and put the Sharks on the power play. I know, that really goes against the narrative against Kane though.

Again, matter of opinion but as long as I've been watching the team there tends to be two outcomes. Sharks play an unfocused game and get into it after the whistle like they have been doing against Vegas and more often than not they lose. Sharks ignore all the antics after the whistle and focus on their game plan and they seem to win more often than not.

Hilarious people are now saying Perry and Getzlaf running around like idiots works. I'm not sure when that ever worked...the Ducks teams that beat us were better than us

Agree to disagree I guess

 

[fasterthanlight]

I'm way more worried about how Martin Jones plays against Vegas than the way Kane plays against them, that is far more concerning

This. Something about vegas turns him into a total sieve

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This. Something about vegas turns him into a total sieve

That would be called the team defense in front of him. They open up Main Street to their goalie for Vegas constantly.

 

[one2gamble]

That would be called the team defense in front of him. They open up Main Street to their goalie for Vegas constantly.

They don't do anything differently with Vegas than anyone else...that's the problem

 

[Barrie22]

Vs vegas the sharks need to play stupidly simple hockey.

 

[BCShark]

3 games for that ? this league will be figure skating in 10 years

 

[stator]

I thought suspending Kane for stupidity was too much. Should have been a fine, but Rule 40 doesn't appear to have any provisions for a fine. Just game suspensions.

Rule 40.5 is interesting. I cannot believe it could get that far along in the process without a game misconduct penalty on EK9. I would have appealed, and Betty would probably bring it down to a one game suspension.

Kane's hockey IQ drops precipitously when he doesn't have the puck or actively involved in the offensive play.

 

[stator]

I'd reallyyyy like to think officials are more professional than that...but I fear you may be right.

My college roommate's father was an MLB umpire. He's right based upon the stories I heard. Refs are humans as well, not machines. They are also part of the game.