Proposal: Kadri for Manson

[robertocarlos]

I can hardly wait for this season and the 58, counting playoffs, Leafs games on CBC. I won't even need cable.

 

[Snowman]

If he's happy then it's all good. I forget the numbers but he is a bargain right now. Oh, $4.5 for another 4 years and he is 27. Never-mind.
What about Little and Trouba for Kadri? Jet fans won't do it though.

Not a chance Winnipeg does this.

 

[Liferleafer]

If Andersen plays well you just might get away with it.

Oh don't get me wrong, i would love to trade for a D upgrade...i just don't think we need to take the homerun swing.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Value wise it'c close. By why do the Ducks do it? It creates a hole for them at RHD. Plus the Ducks do have enough centre depth that they really don't need Kadri.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Only consider I would have from a Leafs POV, is that I don't know what we would do center wise. We would have no one to play 3C, and I'm not sure how many teams are willing to move their centre depth in August.


Obviously the value is in our favour, but I'm not sure we can do this deal without figureing out a solution to replace Kadri beforehand.

I very much doubt a search for a 3C prevents Toronto from picking up a younger defender who can play top pair

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

I try not to lump together entire fan bases

but when almost every Toronto fan says they cant make the deal because they have no 3C replacement... youre all joking, right? It seriously enters the mind that they get a young top 3 defender (which is a massive need, their biggest) but.... no 3C replacement, so lets throw away the upgrade weve been trying to get for multiple years simply because we wouldnt have an immediate 3C.

Never in my life have I seen a fan base less willing to give away true assets for upgrades they actually need

 

[Randy Randerson]

I try not to lump together entire fan bases

but when almost every Toronto fan says they cant make the deal because they have no 3C replacement... youre all joking, right? It seriously enters the mind that they get a young top 3 defender (which is a massive need, their biggest) but.... no 3C replacement, so lets throw away the upgrade weve been trying to get for multiple years simply because we wouldnt have an immediate 3C.

Never in my life have I seen a fan base less willing to give away true assets for upgrades they actually need

I think you've missed a step in your accounting here - because Kadri is Toronto's 3C it's easy to apply the value of a 3C to him, but he's somewhere between a high end 2C and a low end 1C in terms of where he ranks in the league's centers. Center is a huge area of strength for the Leafs right now, trading Kadri takes a lot away from that, and that's without considering how much he outperforms his cap hit which will be really relevant to the Leafs by the start of the 19-20 season. So sure, it would be easy enough to find a Nick Bonino type to play 3C, but that's still a tangibly weaker set of centers than we have right now, so what you're talking about is just shifting the proportional weakness in the lineup

The need to balance lineups I really believe is more in our heads than a reality. The Leafs no doubt have a gaping hole at top pairing RHD and Manson would be a great fit, but that hole was there last year and the team cruised to the playoffs where it had the misfortune of being in a division that gave them the least favourable match up given their point totals and ultimately lost to a better team. It's hard to look at the Leafs roster and think it's not better than it was last year in it's current state, so even without a defense upgrade the likely outcome is better than last year, and at some point this season there will be defense upgrades available for non-roster assets

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

I think you've missed a step in your accounting here - because Kadri is Toronto's 3C it's easy to apply the value of a 3C to him, but he's somewhere between a high end 2C and a low end 1C in terms of where he ranks in the league's centers. Center is a huge area of strength for the Leafs right now, trading Kadri takes a lot away from that, and that's without considering how much he outperforms his cap hit which will be really relevant to the Leafs by the start of the 19-20 season. So sure, it would be easy enough to find a Nick Bonino type to play 3C, but that's still a tangibly weaker set of centers than we have right now, so what you're talking about is just shifting the proportional weakness in the lineup

The need to balance lineups I really believe is more in our heads than a reality. The Leafs no doubt have a gaping hole at top pairing RHD and Manson would be a great fit, but that hole was there last year and the team cruised to the playoffs where it had the misfortune of being in a division that gave them the least favourable match up given their point totals and ultimately lost to a better team. It's hard to look at the Leafs roster and think it's not better than it was last year in it's current state, so even without a defense upgrade the likely outcome is better than last year, and at some point this season there will be defense upgrades available for non-roster assets

no, there is no missed step

Kadri plays 3C for Toronto, Manson would be top pair for Toronto

Toronto fans wont give up their 3C for a top D

how on earth you garnered two paragraphs out of that is beyond me

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

yes obviously Kadri is better, much better than most 3Cs. but Toronto has him as 3C and any Leaf fan valuing the 3C position over the top pair dman they need - I say to them they are the fans folks on here hate on constantly. Just because Kadri is signed to an amazing contract and is better than almost all other 3Cs in the league - to Toronto he is a 3C and Id bet money Dubas makes that deal ten times out of ten. Not to mention the age difference too

 

[DFF]

no, there is no missed step

Kadri plays 3C for Toronto, Manson would be top pair for Toronto

Toronto fans wont give up their 3C for a top D

how on earth you garnered two paragraphs out of that is beyond me

They want Hyman or Kapanen for your top D

On second thought some would think Kapanen is too much. He is their next superstar

 

[Ziggdiezan]

no, there is no missed step

Kadri plays 3C for Toronto, Manson would be top pair for Toronto

Toronto fans wont give up their 3C for a top D

how on earth you garnered two paragraphs out of that is beyond me

If your going by that logic the Leafs would be crazy to not give up their #2C for Manson then. I means it's just a number 2 center, easy to find.

Or maybe, is the context of who is playing in that #2C more important than their position of the depth chart.


I bet the Penguins can't wait to trade Malkin for #2C value...

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Double

 

[DFF]

If your going by that logic the Leafs would be crazy to not give up their #2C for Manson then. I means it's just a number 2 center, easy to find.

Or maybe, is the context of who is playing in that #2C more important than their position of the depth chart.


I bet the Penguins can't wait to trade Malkin for #2C value...

Yeah, why trade away your strength for need.....it's pretty fun watching Gardiner when the games count.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

If your going by that logic the Leafs would be crazy to not give up their #2C for Manson then. I means it's just a number 2 center, easy to find.

Or maybe, is the context of who is playing in that #2C more important than their position of the depth chart.


I bet the Penguins can't wait to trade Malkin for #2C value...

Oh so its not about team needs and positional strength, its about pure player value

luckily you arent the teams GM.

Incredible, arguing about moving their 3rd best center for the final piece of the puzzle they need lmfao.

 

[hector morrison]

Yeah, why trade away your strength for need.....it's pretty fun watching Gardiner when the games count.

It has been said that Ducks don't need Kadri...why talk?

 

[hector morrison]

Yeah, why trade away your strength for need.....it's pretty fun watching Gardiner when the games count.

It has been said that Ducks don't need Kadri...why talk?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Oh so its not about team needs and positional strength, its about pure player value

luckily you arent the teams GM.

Incredible, arguing about moving their 3rd best center for the final piece of the puzzle they need lmfao.

I'm not going to decrease the value of a player on my team because they are buried behind some of the best center depth in the NHL.

That is just terrible asset management. Trading for team need purely instead of player ability is how Hall for Larsson type trades happen.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

I'm not going to decrease the value of a player on my team because they are buried behind some of the best center depth in the NHL.

That is just terrible asset management. Trading for team need purely instead of player ability is how Hall for Larsson type trades happen.

So Kadri for Manson is lowering his value?

Dude Anaheim would never do it in the first place, how insane are you?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

So Kadri for Manson is lowering his value?

Dude Anaheim would never do it in the first place, how insane are you?

Lol I obviously wasn't saying that. I was going to explicitly say I'm not commenting on this trade specifically but felt it was implied.

I was referring to valuing a player based on their depth position (I.e. #3C) rather than their actual playing ability. Was in response to you saying 'Omg can't believe leaf fans won't trade their #3C for a #1RD' or some such BS.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Lol I obviously wasn't saying that. I was going to explicitly say I'm not commenting on this trade specifically but felt it was implied.

I was referring to valuing a player based on their draft position, I.e. #3C rather than their ability. Was in response to you saying 'Omg can't believe leaf fans won't trade their #3C for a #1RD' or some such BS.

I guess...

and it doesnt change a thing. Kadri being the 3C means he is expendable due to Tavares and Matthews, especially for a young top pair talent that Toronto DESPERATELY needs. Whether or not Kadri is better than all 3Cs out there doesnt change the fact that he is Toronto's 3C and would instantly be moved if Manson was available. NOW, if Kadri was 2C, then that is a different debate. But he isnt so its no debate in my mind, which ahould be pretty obvious to most.

According to Toronto's needs, top pair D >>>> 3C

 

[connormcmuffin]

Kadri's back to back 30+ goal years are more of a bankable commodity than Stone's fancy stats. I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert on Stone but not enticing enough for me to hand over one of the best depth contracts in the league.

And I like the guy Stone is pair with a universe more than I like Stone.

Leafs are taking all the gamble of how Stone adjusts, these are the talents that you pull out of an ideal situation and they turn to stone (sorry). Kadri is producing in any situation, obviously given how the Leafs have handicapped him giving Bozak the easier assignments for years.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I guess...

and it doesnt change a thing. Kadri being the 3C means he is expendable due to Tavares and Matthews, especially for a young top pair talent that Toronto DESPERATELY needs. Whether or not Kadri is better than all 3Cs out there doesnt change the fact that he is Toronto's 3C and would instantly be moved if Manson was available. NOW, if Kadri was 2C, then that is a different debate. But he isnt so its no debate in my mind, which ahould be pretty obvious to most.

According to Toronto's needs, top pair D >>>> 3C

Like I said it is not wise to value a player purely on where they are playing in your lineup.

If we are talking this actual trade the Leafs also have to consider what they would need to trade to get a #3C to cover Kadri's spot as they aren't any left in FA that would work.

The value is fine but the implications of trading Kadri, espcially considering his amazing contract, are pretty big.

Not saying I wouldn't make the trade but if I was the GM I would obviously check what the costs of acquiring a good #3C is with term as well as what their contract would be etc etc.

 

[GhostOfWildWing]

Kadri's back to back 30+ goal years are more of a bankable commodity than Stone's fancy stats. I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert on Stone but not enticing enough for me to hand over one of the best depth contracts in the league.

And I like the guy Stone is pair with a universe more than I like Stone.

Leafs are taking all the gamble of how Stone adjusts, these are the talents that you pull out of an ideal situation and they turn to stone (sorry). Kadri is producing in any situation, obviously given how the Leafs have handicapped him giving Bozak the easier assignments for years.

It takes special skill to say Stone four (five with pun) times in a reply, when referring to Josh Manson

 

[GhostOfWildWing]

Kadri's back to back 30+ goal years are more of a bankable commodity than Stone's fancy stats. I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert on Stone but not enticing enough for me to hand over one of the best depth contracts in the league.

And I like the guy Stone is pair with a universe more than I like Stone.

Leafs are taking all the gamble of how Stone adjusts, these are the talents that you pull out of an ideal situation and they turn to stone (sorry). Kadri is producing in any situation, obviously given how the Leafs have handicapped him giving Bozak the easier assignments for years.

It takes special skill to say Stone four (five counting the pun) times in a reply, when referring to Josh Manson

 

[connormcmuffin]

It takes special skill to say Stone four (five counting the pun) times in a reply, when referring to Josh Manson

Midcard is micard, Walmart greeters are Walmart greeters, ya know

 

[jrgtml67]

With your values and logic, you will not get any RHD in trade - that's for sure.

No consideration even for Ducks giving up Manson that they can't lose. Just TML.

Umm I was basically saying I dont think we need one lol that's first off.

Secondly I haven't seen one trade this offseason nor recently that involved a caliber of a Kadri or Nylander..Marner for a stud D. The Hamilton Hanifin deal was D for D with others mixed in.

What's your logic? Let me guess..has to be Kadri or Nylander..Marner going the other way..that is loonie bin talk.

We aren't trading our best contract (forward) Kadri that gives us a triple threat and Mike is a match up wiz. That's first second no way no how Nylander or Marner get traded...Dubss has said it several times since we got JT all 3 can and will be signed.

Funny

Any other team Rielly and Jake would be considered untouchable. 2 yrs ago real close to 50pts, Jake was also plus 22. Last yr both over 50pts and plus minus for both was okay as well. We have many options in the farm. Could we trade for a RHD sure..it wont be Manson..no clue who..but bet your boots itll be around picks, one of our backups (we have 3 sparky, pickard, curtis)..then possibly Lilijgren, but I doubt that, ceiling is too high, Dermott looks top 4 eventually. So I'd say Zaitsev maybe the one to go.