Confirmed with Link: Kadri finished 20th Selke voting and Lou finished 4th for General Manager of The Year

[The Apologist]

It seems pretty clear to me - shows how the team around a player impacts their stats. Maybe try reading the post again?

I didn't get that at all, I got the impression he was comparing Kadri to well, past Kadri seasons.

Kadri's relative possession numbers are great because he pushes shot generation at a ridiculously good level, while his shot suppression is mediocre. His goal differential increase is largely a result of increased on-ice shooting percentage.

Looking at overall impact numbers makes no sense for a defense-centered award when the numbers are driven by their offensive half.

That's not harping on Naz. I love the guy. But you can't use offensive stats to argue his case for a Selke, and that's what his entire case is built on.

I don't disagree with you at all on this, and maybe with the advent of 'advanced stats' in hockey we are less likely now to have a Kadri type player win it. I think we would be giving a lot of credit to the voters on this to assume that they would vote based on actual merit. Less likely people have won in the past. That's why I would not be shocked.

 

[moon111]

When I think of Kadri last season, there's two things that come to my mind.

1. Babcock took stock of what Kadri does and doesn't do and implemented him in a role he was more successful at. Kadri hasn't been an amazing playmaker. Instead they often played very conservative, and would let Kadri drive solo.

2. Statistics. The conservative style, while perhaps helping the Leafs a great deal defensively, did cut on the offense. Fans that say Komarov took a step back, might not realize he was playing exactly how the coach wanted him to play. His drop in offense may not of been a concern. With wingers more concerned with defense then offense, Kadri was often trying to cut through alone. This resulted in higher turn-overs, but really I don't think were the kind that resulted in odd-man rushes, etc.

 

[PromisedLand]

Kadri is great and all but what does this sentence mean?

Basically I was suggesting that

Don't just compare Kadri to other players in the league; also factor in his relative play versus his own performance in the prior season

Not saying Naz should win the Selke but outright rejecting the idea that he may be good candidate later is foolish IMO

As team gets better every player will be better in their roles. It obviously has to start in goalie and D-men which as far as I am concerned is trending up for the Leafs

 

[Gary Nylund]

I didn't get that at all, I got the impression he was comparing Kadri to well, past Kadri seasons.

I don't disagree with you at all on this, and maybe with the advent of 'advanced stats' in hockey we are less likely now to have a Kadri type player win it. I think we would be giving a lot of credit to the voters on this to assume that they would vote based on actual merit. Less likely people have won in the past. That's why I would not be shocked.

Right. And I thought the theory was (which I agree with) was that the players around him changed for the better, thus improving his stats. Like the part I put in red, CF% is about the same but improved goaltending led to a much improved GF%.

GF%

2015-2016: 39.8% (Reimer/Bernier)
2016-2017: 48.5% (Andy, Enroth, McBackup)

CF%

2015-2016: 52% (Reimer/Bernier)
2016-2017: 51% (Andy, Enroth, McBackup)

That's what I thought he was driving at but it's possible I'm missing something, posting and working at the same time gets dicey sometimes (though I though I'd mastered the art.)

 

[The Apologist]

Right. And I thought the theory was (which I agree with) was that the players around him changed for the better, thus improving his stats. Like the part I put in red, CF% is about the same but improved goaltending led to a much improved GF%.

GF%

2015-2016: 39.8% (Reimer/Bernier)
2016-2017: 48.5% (Andy, Enroth, McBackup)

CF%

2015-2016: 52% (Reimer/Bernier)
2016-2017: 51% (Andy, Enroth, McBackup)

That's what I thought he was driving at but it's possible I'm missing something, posting and working at the same time gets dicey sometimes (though I though I'd mastered the art.)

I think both were being pointed out, you're right. There is mention above that the coaching staff is letting Kadri play his game, while surrounding him with better defensive players and I don't think that evaluation is off base. I do think we are under appreciating how much Kadri is also learning playing with the likes of Koma. He does give the puck away often on lone rushes but is also quick to get back when needed now.

That being said, he and Koma do get exposed quite a bit (IMHO) in 4 on 4 situations and short handed. Naz is more of an offensive threat than a defensive one and does tend to struggle with traditional 'defensive' roles. He does try but from what I can see it's as if even then he's already thinking of what he's going to do when he gets the puck and seems to fall a step behind.

That was more than I intended to write there.....

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think both were being pointed out, you're right. There is mention above that the coaching staff is letting Kadri play his game, while surrounding him with better defensive players and I don't think that evaluation is off base. I do think we are under appreciating how much Kadri is also learning playing with the likes of Koma. He does give the puck away often on lone rushes but is also quick to get back when needed now.

That being said, he and Koma do get exposed quite a bit (IMHO) in 4 on 4 situations and short handed. Naz is more of an offensive threat than a defensive one and does tend to struggle with traditional 'defensive' roles. He does try but from what I can see it's as if even then he's already thinking of what he's going to do when he gets the puck and seems to fall a step behind.

That was more than I intended to write there.....

Those are some interesting points, I hadn't thought much about Komarov's impact on Kadri, you might be right about that. You may also be right about Kadri anticipating going on offence, no way to tell what's going on in his head but yeah, it's possible. He's such an interesting player to follow in that sense, he keeps improving, keeps morphing into some improved version of Kadri so who knows what to expect? I've said a number of times that I don't expect him to improve even more and I will absolutely be happy if he can maintain his level of play over the last two seasons (and I do expect he will do that) but I don't want to sell him short either. I will say then that I don't think it's inconceivable that he could improve a lot on the defensive end and if he does that, and we factor in that offence does seem to play a part in how voters think then there may be a Selke in his future after all. I still think a Selke is a long shot and honestly, I don't really care either but ...

Ok I think that was more than I intended to write as well ...

 

[diceman934]

Yeah there's two problems with this:

1)
Some people were over-reacting to the OT shift he had against McDavid, IIRC that's when the Selke talk started.

2)
There's a group of people who have never liked Kadri. Now even they are finding it hard to argue that Kadri sucks so instead of admitting they were wrong about him, they started this story that Babcock "saved his career". Of course this is complete nonsense, one of the first things Babcock commented on when he started here was how good Kadri (already) was.

Anyhow, 20th in voting for Kadri is pretty cool Congrats Nazem, here's hoping for several more years for you like the last one!

So funny the same group of people still minimizing Kadri game. He is a shut down center as seen by how effective he was in doing just that on a play off team. Calling him a match up center is laughable as every other center who plays against every other teams top lines is a shut down center.

Saying its a joke that Kadri got a vote is again funny...Mathews was voted the rookie of the year by the same voters and that is ok.

Kadri is a very good center who plays for keeps and is a player that all teams in the NHL would love to have. He had a great year and it still bothers the same individuals who said we would not resign him or that he is overrated.

Kadri is a pain in the rear end to play against on a very good contract who is gaining respect around the league for his 200 ft game and he is a Leaf and for that I am very happy.

 

[diceman934]

I think both were being pointed out, you're right. There is mention above that the coaching staff is letting Kadri play his game, while surrounding him with better defensive players and I don't think that evaluation is off base. I do think we are under appreciating how much Kadri is also learning playing with the likes of Koma. He does give the puck away often on lone rushes but is also quick to get back when needed now.

That being said, he and Koma do get exposed quite a bit (IMHO) in 4 on 4 situations and short handed. Naz is more of an offensive threat than a defensive one and does tend to struggle with traditional 'defensive' roles. He does try but from what I can see it's as if even then he's already thinking of what he's going to do when he gets the puck and seems to fall a step behind.

That was more than I intended to write there.....

Looking back at the 4 on 4 it was Komo who got exposed and not kadri. Just wanted to point it out.

 

[Moncherry]

Well that is more indicative of the inability of some Leaf fans to accurately assess talent, notice how those a tire pumping fans are appropriately quite in this thread? They are extremely passionate until they are proven wrong, then poof like the wind they are gone.

I think one thing Babcock has done is harnessed a wild horse, Kadri tends to be that guy who has an inability to read the situation and can at times over react or rely too much on emotions, and that get him in trouble. Babcock has for what ever reason been able to get Kadri focused on begin a scoring super pest without crossing the derp line, I think its safe to say this was Kadri best season so far as a pro and when we look back at Kadris career, IMO I don't think this past season will be his best

For the record, that post was in reference to Kadri's defensive game being vastly overrated, not what Babcock has done with him.

 

[The Apologist]

Looking back at the 4 on 4 it was Komo who got exposed and not kadri. Just wanted to point it out.

Edit- nevermind. Ill excuse myself now.

 

[The Apologist]

For the record, that post was in reference to Kadri's defensive game being vastly overrated, not what Babcock has done with him.

Careful with how you word things, the cavalry is now here.

 

[stickty111]

Low end #1 centre if can keep this up. Good defensively, pest, good passer and can score in close with the best of them.

Not often you have someone who is a great playmaker with a gritty side that can also be trusted in the D zone, and thats what Kadri is.

 

[Bluelines]

For the record, that post was in reference to Kadri's defensive game being vastly overrated, not what Babcock has done with him.

Agreed, the second paragraph was a different but related train of though.