Just how good were Hull, Hedberg, and Nilsson?

[SCampo98]

I've seen their stats and have heard stories but never got a chance to watch them play. For those that did either in person, on tv, or in some other manner, just how dominant were they? For all intents and purposes they see, like one of the most dominant hockey lines of all time, and seem, at face-value at least, that they would have been incredibly exciting to watch.

On a side note, is there anywhere online or otherwise where one can watch old WHA games? I'd love to immerse my self in some 70s old-time hockey.

Click to read more...

 

[DannyGallivan]

Well, on one hand they played against WHA opponents, but on the other hand they were easily the most exciting, dynamic line in the world at the time (and no, that's not hyperbole). Bobby Hull was an ageless wonder, finding two young guys who had the speed and creativity to make the game fun for him again.

 

[Canadiens1958]

NHL speed vs WHA speed difference.

 

[82Ninety42011]

NHL speed vs WHA speed difference.

I don't know about that the WHA poached a lot of stars from NHL and were a good league. Gretzky came from there remember.

 

[The Macho King]

I don't know about that the WHA poached a lot of stars from NHL and were a good league. Gretzky came from there remember.

WHA poached a *couple* of stars from the NHL, one of them being Hull. Both the NHL and WHA were pretty damn watered down due to a) rapid NHL expansion, and b) WHA expansion + not a ton of Euros and none from beyond the Iron Curtain. It's just really tough to tell - I wish Hull hadn't left the NHL to see how dominate he could be (from a hockey sense - from a personality sense I'm sad he didn't decide to play in Siberia naked and let the elements take care of him).

 

[DowntownBooster]

SCampo98, as this question comes up from time to time in regards to how influential Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson were, if you'll bear with reading my long post I believe you'll get a better idea from an excerpt in a book titled "The Hot Line" which was forwarded by former Oilers coach/general manager Glen Sather who was the architect behind the great Edmonton teams of the 1980s. The following are his words from the forward comments in the book:

"Bobby Hull, Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg were the most exciting line I ever saw. They were so creative and fundamentally, there weren't any flaws in their game. They moved the puck with precision, continually got in the open and anticipated where the puck was going to end up.

It was hard for teams at that time to play against them because they hadn't seen anything like that before.

As a left winger with the Edmonton Oilers in 1976-77, I think I was like everyone else. I was mesmerized by how they played. They whizzed by us. They could all skate and could all pick up the puck with either hand. They were terrific to watch. They were all great thinkers, too. They were all very cerebral.

The way they could play as a five-man unit, with Lars-Erik Sjoberg leading the back end, is what impressed me the most. Nobody played like that in the NHL. The NHL was still in the dark ages back then. It was really fun to play against them.

The first time I was on the ice against those three guys was October 15 at Northlands Coliseum in Edmonton. It wasn't even close. The Jets beat us 6-1. They could play through all the hooking, holding, interference and dirty play. They just played the game the way it should be played.

Everybody tried to intimidate them but you couldn't. They weren't going to be intimidated. That was impressive, too. But it wasn't just Hedberg, Nilsson and Hull, it was also Willy Lindstrom, Dan Labraaten, Veli-Pekka Ketola, Thommie Bergman, Mats Lindh and Hexi Riihiranta, not to mention Peter Sullivan.

My first game as the Oilers' player-coach was March 3, 1977, also in Edmonton. We beat the Jets 5-4. (I like to say it's because we had superior coaching.) I also scored the opening goal that night. But even though we won, I wanted our team to play like the Jets.

The Jets beat us in the last Avco Cup finals in 1979. Even though Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson weren't there any more, that whole system had been incorporated by Winnipeg to play like that.

The Oilers didn't start to play like the Jets until we were in the NHL but they built the blueprint for us. It's one thing to have a plan to play like that but it's another to get players who can actually play in that style. When we started to draft players, like Mark Messier, Paul Coffey, Juri Kurri and Glenn Anderson, we had four or five years to train them to play like that. It didn't just happen over night, but it did happen.

When I was with the Minnesota North Stars the year before, I read a lot about what was going on in the WHA. I thought at the time that I'd end up in the league. Minnesota offered me a one-year deal but I wanted a two-year deal so I said 'no' to them. I thought I could make more money, have a two-year deal and live in Alberta.

If you look at the way the Pittsburgh Penguins played in winning the Stanley Cup in 2016, they played like the WHA Jets, too. I think you'll see more teams in the NHL play like that. The New York Rangers are like that, the Detroit Red Wings are like that. Teams are gradually going to change. It's an exciting game when it's played like that.

Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson and the WHA Jets made the biggest impression on how the game should be played today. They showed the Edmonton Oilers how to play. We won five Stanley Cups with that system."

--Glen Sather, President, New York Rangers, 2016

 

[blueandgoldguy]

NHL speed vs WHA speed difference.

Do you have any tangible evidence of the difference in speed between all the NHL players and all the WHA players from 1972 - 1979?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you have any tangible evidence of the difference in speed between all the NHL players and all the WHA players from 1972 - 1979?

Gordie Howe, J.C. Tremblay, Ron Ward plus all the old WHL guys playing for Houston and other teams.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Gordie Howe, J.C. Tremblay, Ron Ward plus all the old WHL guys playing for Houston and other teams.

That isn't tangible evidence of anything. Some older players may skate faster than younger players who were never good skaters to begin with...which the NHL had plenty of in the 70s. Of course so did the WHA.

There is probably no way to definitively prove that NHL players (notably the top players) were faster than the WHA players (again, the top players).

 

[57special]

The best WHA players were easily NHL calibre. The WHA just didn't have the depth of the NHL.

To answer the OP. I had a friend who played college hockey in WPG. He used to practice with some of the Jets in the pre season. He said the Swedes were on a different level when it came to skating and skills compared to most of the other Jets(I don't think Hull was there very often). Hedberg and Nilsson were the beginning of the "Swedish Invasion". If they played under today's rules i think they would have been much more successful in the NHL.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That isn't tangible evidence of anything. Some older players may skate faster than younger players who were never good skaters to begin with...which the NHL had plenty of in the 70s. Of course so did the WHA.

There is probably no way to definitively prove that NHL players (notably the top players) were faster than the WHA players (again, the top players).

Who in the WHA could skate with Bobby Orr, even post op, Guy Lafleur, an aging Henri Richard, Gilbert Perreault, Jacques Lemaire, etc.

Interesting that you fail to list specific names to support your claims.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Who in the WHA could skate with Bobby Orr, even post op, Guy Lafleur, an aging Henri Richard, Gilbert Perreault, Jacques Lemaire, etc.

Hull. Hedberg. Nilsson. They certainly had the Red Army on their heals.

Of course, the collective team speed of the WHA was little match for the NHL, although they did have plenty of young legs.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Huh? The WHA was a glorified minor league...the game speed and sloppiness was of poorer quality to the NHL, what's even the discussion here? The best players were NHL caliber, of course. Like the guys in the title. That's not much different than most times in history wrt to minor leagues...

 

[The Panther]

The best WHA players were easily NHL calibre. The WHA just didn't have the depth of the NHL.

This is correct. Around 1975-76, when the two pro-Leagues combined were at their most watered-down ever, probably the top 2/3 of NHL clubs (say, excluding Minny, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, California, Detroit, & Washington) were at a respectable threshold level, while maybe the top 1/3 of WHA clubs (say, Winnipeg, Houston, Quebec... maybe Calgary) would meet the same threshold level that season.

That is, maybe 1/3 of NHL clubs and 2/3 of WHA clubs were at a lower level, below what would in more normal times be a cut-off point for pro-level hockey.

 

[The Panther]

The WHA was a glorified minor league...the game speed and sloppiness was of poorer quality to the NHL...

As has been discussed elsewhere, in the mid-70s NHL teams like (to use the obvious example) Washington were minor-League teams playing in the NHL. Kansas City, too.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes.

 

[TheEye]

Huh? The WHA was a glorified minor league...

From my perspective, this is an unfair and wholly incorrect statement. It's not challenging to put together a roster from WHA teams (circa 1975) which I'd chose to take on the 1975 Stanley Cup Champions and expect them to win.

B. Hull U. Nilsson A. Hedberg
M. Howe D. Keon G. Howe
M. Tardif A. Lacroix R. Houle
F. Mahovlich R. Ftorek P. Henderson

J.C. Tremblay A. Hamilton
P. Stapleton T. Green
P. Shmyr L. Sjoberg
R. Ley

G. Cheevers
D. Dryden
J. Daley

Attempt producing a similar roster from AHL teams circa 1975.

I'd also be willing to bet the top three WHA teams from that same time period would have been extremely competitive with the bottom third of NHL teams (six).

The best WHA players were easily NHL calibre. The WHA just didn't have the depth of the NHL.

I believe that's a very fair take. Additionally, I feel they were equally lacking in peak superstar talent.

 

[57special]

I had no idea that Mark Howe was a forward early in his career. Always thought of him as a Dman

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ulf Nilsson in the WHA:

120, 114, 124, 126 points

Went to the NHL:

66, 58, 51 points

Hedberg WHA

100, 105, 131, 122

NHL

78, 71, 70

 

[DowntownBooster]

Ulf Nilsson in the WHA:

120, 114, 124, 126 points

Went to the NHL:

66, 58, 51 points

Hedberg WHA

100, 105, 131, 122

NHL

78, 71, 70

To be fair, Hedberg and Nilsson were pretty beaten up by the time they got to the NHL. Slap Shot wasn't just a movie to some of those that played in the WHA. Another thing that many fail to consider is that it was the combination of Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson and the chemistry they had as a unit that was the reason for their success. Removing one of them was the same as leaving out a key ingredient in a recipe. Go back and read post #6 to get a better idea of how good the line was according to former Oilers Coach/GM Glen Sather.

 

[TheEye]

Ulf Nilsson in the WHA:

120, 114, 124, 126 points

Went to the NHL:

66, 58, 51 points

Hedberg WHA

100, 105, 131, 122

NHL

78, 71, 70

A lot of context missing there, especially in regards to Nilsson.

Easy game to play though and using two Whalers players for your familiarity:

Mike Rogers in the WHA:

82 PTS (78 GP), 72 PTS (80 GP), 71 PTS (80 GP).

Went to the NHL:

105 PTS (80 GP), 105 PTS (80 GP), 103 PTS (80 GP).

Blaine Stoughton in the WHA:

104 PTS (81 GP), 45 PTS (77 GP), 30 PTS (61 GP).

Went to the NHL:

100 PTS (80 GP), 73 PTS (71 GP), 91 PTS (80 GP).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

To be fair, Hedberg and Nilsson were pretty beaten up by the time they got to the NHL. Slap Shot wasn't just a movie to some of those that played in the WHA. Another thing that many fail to consider is that it was the combination of Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson and the chemistry they had as a unit that was the reason for their success. Removing one of them was the same as leaving out a key ingredient in a recipe. Go back and read post #6 to get a better idea of how good the line was according to former Oilers Coach/GM Glen Sather.

Correct, leaving out the former NHL superstar hurt.

I have a pretty good idea of how good they were. I saw them play. Both in the WHA and NHL.​

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A lot of context missing there, especially in regards to Nilsson.

Easy game to play though and using two Whalers players for your familiarity:

Mike Rogers in the WHA:

82 PTS (78 GP), 72 PTS (80 GP), 71 PTS (80 GP).

Went to the NHL:

105 PTS (80 GP), 105 PTS (80 GP), 103 PTS (80 GP).

Blaine Stoughton in the WHA:

104 PTS (81 GP), 45 PTS (77 GP), 30 PTS (61 GP).

Went to the NHL:

100 PTS (80 GP), 73 PTS (71 GP), 91 PTS (80 GP).

This thread is about Hull, Nilsson and Hedberg, correct?

 

[Coach]

Unfortunately Hull didn't go with Ulf and Anders when they went to New York. Really would of helped their transition. Sad the 2 swedes both got hurt before they could show everything they had.
Jets really started the European invasion into North America lots of stars came in from Europe to the Jets in the 70's.

 

[The Panther]

Ulf Nilsson in the WHA:

120, 114, 124, 126 points

Went to the NHL:

66, 58, 51 points

Hedberg WHA

100, 105, 131, 122

NHL

78, 71, 70

Hm, well, you're sort of overlooking the fact that Nilsson played 59 and 50 games in his first two seasons for the Rangers. He was pacing for 89 and 93 points those first two NHL seasons, respectively. The projected totals would have easily made him the Rangers' leading scorer in both years. It's a big drop from the 130-kind of point pace had the last couple years with the Jets, but we'd expect almost that much of a drop from a top-WHA team to a good-ish NHL one. Further, in 1978-79 he had the top shooting-percentage in the NHL. Not only that, but on a per-game basis he also had the best plus/minus on the Rangers in both seasons.

Here's the major injury he suffered on Feb.25th, 1979:


He was almost 29 when this happened, and then the next season he had another major injury (still scored 16 points in 14 playoff games in '81).

Point being, while Nilsson was a superb WHA performer, he was still an excellent NHL performer... when healthy and before age caught up to him.

Sure, there's the Robbie Ftoreks who go from 115 to 75-point players overnight upon entering the NHL, but, as noted above, there are also Rogers, Stoughton, and even young-Gretzky, all of whom improved their scoring their first few NHL seasons after the WHA. By the way, on those same late-70s' Jets, there was also Swede Kent Nilsson, who (twice) scored 107 points for Winnipeg, and then later scored 131 in the NHL.