Player Discussion: Josh Ho-Sang

[redbull]

this is NOT true!
takeaway-giveaway-ratio
HoSang 10-23-0.4
Mayfield 5-37-0.1
Hickey 14-60-0.2
Boychuk 15-46-0.3
I stopped researching after these examples. And I think it's more crucial if a D-man lose the puck because in most cases there will be high danger as normally there's only the goalie behind the defenders. Yes, HoSang can and should be better in his turnover ratio, but don't call him the worst and scapegoat for last years dumpster fire at Isles defense.

Not all giveaways are created equally. What Ho-Sang does extremely poorly is give the puck away in transition. When everyone is going one way, the turnover causes high quality scoring chances against.

That kills a team like the Isles with slow defense and poor neutral zone game.

Trotz will fix that.

Just not sure Josh can change.

He plays "Rob schremp hockey" - he was also unwilling or unable to change.

I'm pulling for him. Just not confident.

 

[CREW99AW]

He mentions Ho-Sang's turnovers, but doesn't really drive the point home.

Ho-Sang had the highest turnover rate in the league last year. No coach is going to tolerate that, he simply must get better.

This is the first time I have heard JHS had the highest turnover rate in the league last season.

You have a link

 

[IslandersFan17]

This is the first time I have heard JHS had the highest turnover rate in the league last season.

You have a link

You wont find much in the ways of the link because he wasnt the worst offender in the league in regards to giveaways.

Heck, the only forward in the top ten is Johnny Hockey, the rest are defenders.

 

[saintunspecified]

Ho-Sang's problem wasn't turnovers per se - it was extending his shift + turning it over. Fix the shift length issue first, and go on from there. He's going to turn the puck over. But he should have enough juice left to chase it down when he does.

 

[buud]

Confucius said it's better to have a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without one. JHS is a flawed diamond. Keep him to until you have a higher quality diamond to replace him. The flaws may be permanent though.

what does Confucious say about one bad apple?

giveaways include 1) the other team taking the puck away (i imagine board battles, or stripping the puck from the player), and 2) passing the puck away to them.

i can forgive players for losing the puck in a battle, at least they are battling. size and skill are definite assets, in board battles, and i don't see JHS winning many battles. it seems that JHS just blindly passes it away, a lot. this is not about skill and size, these are mental errors, and should be correctable. and IF he is not trying to correct his bad habits, then he is, sadly, going no where.

 

[ekill08x]

Ho Sang is 22, and never given a real chance or any vote of confidence ever in his hockey career. To suggestion you aren't confident he can change with this regime is a little harsh, but if Trotz cant to it, its pretty much Ho Sang's fault.

 

[Seph]

You wont find much in the ways of the link because he wasnt the worst offender in the league in regards to giveaways.

Heck, the only forward in the top ten is Johnny Hockey, the rest are defenders.

I looked into it, and turns out in terms of giveaways per 60 minute of TOI at 5 on 5, he did in fact have the highest rate in the league for all players with at least 100 min TOI at 5 on 5.

Source: (scroll to the right and sort by giveaways/60)

 

[isles55]

this is NOT true!
takeaway-giveaway-ratio
HoSang 10-23-0.4
Mayfield 5-37-0.1
Hickey 14-60-0.2
Boychuk 15-46-0.3
I stopped researching after these examples. And I think it's more crucial if a D-man lose the puck because in most cases there will be high danger as normally there's only the goalie behind the defenders. Yes, HoSang can and should be better in his turnover ratio, but don't call him the worst and scapegoat for last years dumpster fire at Isles defense.

I'm using /60 raio rather than takeaway/giveaway ratio. Ho-Sang had the highest giveaway/60 rate for players that played at least 50 minutes with 4.91 giveaways/60, the next highest was Prout(who only played four games) with 4.57 and Mete at 4.51

Defenseman turning over the puck is bad, but I don't see how this is relevant to Ho-Sang. He isn't a defenseman, so I don't see why they should be compared.

 

[isles55]

This is the first time I have heard JHS had the highest turnover rate in the league last season.

You have a link

You can see the data at natturalstattrick.com under the "Players" and "individual" tabs.

I used a minimum of 50 minutes as a parameter.

 

[IslandersGER]

You can see the data at natturalstattrick.com under the "Players" and "individual" tabs.

I used a minimum of 50 minutes as a parameter.

I am sure if you only try and use some fifty obscure parameters than you'll surprisingly find a single stat where Barzal's worst of all in NHL too...*facepalm

 

[isles55]

I am sure if you only try and use some fifty obscure parameters than you'll surprisingly find a single stat where Barzal's worst of all in NHL too...*facepalm

I'd love to see the stat that shows Barzal being the worst out of 800 NHLers.

 

[CREW99AW]

You can see the data at natturalstattrick.com under the "Players" and "individual" tabs.

I used a minimum of 50 minutes as a parameter.

Why use 50 minutes instead of 60 minutes?

 

[SI90]

You wont find much in the ways of the link because he wasnt the worst offender in the league in regards to giveaways.

Heck, the only forward in the top ten is Johnny Hockey, the rest are defenders.

That Johnny hockey guy is pretty good

 

[SI90]

Call me crazy but I think Trotz will have a positive impact on Ho-Sang. Just a gut feeling.

 

[LeapOnOver]

what does Confucious say about one bad apple?

giveaways include 1) the other team taking the puck away (i imagine board battles, or stripping the puck from the player), and 2) passing the puck away to them.

i can forgive players for losing the puck in a battle, at least they are battling. size and skill are definite assets, in board battles, and i don't see JHS winning many battles. it seems that JHS just blindly passes it away, a lot. this is not about skill and size, these are mental errors, and should be correctable. and IF he is not trying to correct his bad habits, then he is, sadly, going no where.

You are incorrect in assuming bad habits and mental errors are the same. The former can be corrected because it's not an IQ issue (usually), the second is not always correctable. We don't know what group JHS falls into. It's quite possible his attitude had nothing to do with his draft position and scouts recognized he's not intelligent enough to play the game at a high level. His body has the skill, his mind doesn't and in the NHL where the difference between an AHL and NHL player is the speed you can make decisions in, intelligence is the bigger piece of the puzzle. Juries not out on him and he's getting one more shot, but this season under a seasoned coach will answer the question, for me anyway.

 

[Shimmy Cocopop]

You are incorrect in assuming bad habits and mental errors are the same. The former can be corrected because it's not an IQ issue (usually), the second is not always correctable. We don't know what group JHS falls into. It's quite possible his attitude had nothing to do with his draft position and scouts recognized he's not intelligent enough to play the game at a high level. His body has the skill, his mind doesn't and in the NHL where the difference between an AHL and NHL player is the speed you can make decisions in, intelligence is the bigger piece of the puzzle. Juries not out on him and he's getting one more shot, but this season under a seasoned coach will answer the question, for me anyway.

I really don't think it's an intelligence issue. By all accounts the kid is smart. If anything, he probably thinks he is smarter than everyone else and therefore is tough to coach.

I do agree that having Trotz/Lou around should give us a final verdict on JHS. The reality is that JHS is the one player that can make everyone forget about JT really fast. A properly coached/motivated JHS can put really good numbers and allow players like Lee/Bailey repeat their performances from last year. However, it's equally as likely that Lou/Trotz (from watching him play/talking to him) may be real close to cutting bait on the kid. 27 teams passed on him in the 2014 draft for a reason and it wasn't due to lack of talent.

He is going to be the one player I follow closely in camp (assuming he isn't traded before then).

 

[13th Floor]

Not all giveaways are created equally. What Ho-Sang does extremely poorly is give the puck away in transition. When everyone is going one way, the turnover causes high quality scoring chances against.

That kills a team like the Isles with slow defense and poor neutral zone game.

Trotz will fix that.

Just not sure Josh can change.

He plays "Rob schremp hockey" - he was also unwilling or unable to change.

I'm pulling for him. Just not confident.

This is where I'm at. I don't have high hopes for Ho Sang, but I'm really hoping he gets it to work. I love the kid and want him to succeed as an Islander so badly.

My fear for him is I think what makes him so good makes him so bad at the NHL level. His high octane play is erratic and unpredictable, but for everyone. That fools defenses but can be very costly, and especially bad on a deep playoff team.

Trotz will reel that in, but will neutering Ho Sang take away his only qualities that make him an NHL player? His stickhandling is so insanely fast, but it gives me anxiety. He overhandles the puck even when making simple plays. I just hope he can tone it down and still be effective.

 

[redbull]

This is where I'm at. I don't have high hopes for Ho Sang, but I'm really hoping he gets it to work. I love the kid and want him to succeed as an Islander so badly.

My fear for him is I think what makes him so good makes him so bad at the NHL level. His high octane play is erratic and unpredictable, but for everyone. That fools defenses but can be very costly, and especially bad on a deep playoff team.

Trotz will reel that in, but will neutering Ho Sang take away his only qualities that make him an NHL player? His stickhandling is so insanely fast, but it gives me anxiety. He overhandles the puck even when making simple plays. I just hope he can tone it down and still be effective.

Such a good post.

On one of JHS' breakaway goals last year, he blew by defenders from his own Blueline with ease, like a young Michael Grabner, but JHS was stick-handling fiercely the whole time.

They coach kids in Tyke/Atom hockey that when you are skating in open ice, keep the puck way in front and push it forward as you skate your fastest - the puck handling slows you down an increased risk of losing possession.

Ho-Sang can (and seemingly loves) stick-handling at to speed. And I agree with you about it being a part of what makes him a special talent.

But.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Such a good post.

On one of JHS' breakaway goals last year, he blew by defenders from his own Blueline with ease, like a young Michael Grabner, but JHS was stick-handling fiercely the whole time.

They coach kids in Tyke/Atom hockey that when you are skating in open ice, keep the puck way in front and push it forward as you skate your fastest - the puck handling slows you down an increased risk of losing possession.

Ho-Sang can (and seemingly loves) stick-handling at to speed. And I agree with you about it being a part of what makes him a special talent.

But.

Vs Buffalo right? Crazy. I know he said he uses soccer techniques to shimmy and fool defenders.

 

[YearlyLottery]

This is where I'm at. I don't have high hopes for Ho Sang, but I'm really hoping he gets it to work. I love the kid and want him to succeed as an Islander so badly.

My fear for him is I think what makes him so good makes him so bad at the NHL level. His high octane play is erratic and unpredictable, but for everyone. That fools defenses but can be very costly, and especially bad on a deep playoff team.

Trotz will reel that in, but will neutering Ho Sang take away his only qualities that make him an NHL player? His stickhandling is so insanely fast, but it gives me anxiety. He overhandles the puck even when making simple plays. I just hope he can tone it down and still be effective.

When JHS was given top six minutes here he thrived with many thinking (including myself to an extent) that this guy was going to be a stud. The next season Weight scratched him opening night and then decided to put him on the third line with Nelson and Beauvillier (before his AHL stint). He was still scoring at around a 40 point pace.

JHS needs to be given quality minutes in order to thrive. I guess time will tell if it works though. I think we all saw something special in that half of a season he played where HE (not Tavares) took this team one point short of the playoffs. That is a major reason why many people still hold out hope for him.

 

[Isles Drive For 5]

I'm really pulling for this guy this year, and quite frankly, feel he needs to be given a real chance to succeed. There is no denying he is a very naturally talented player. Considering his trade value is at its lowest right now, there is no point in unloading him. We need to find out exactly what we have in him, and that can only happen by giving him a role in the everyday lineup. I know they are short sample sizes, but there is no denying that this team has been significantly better when he has been in the lineup over the past 2 seasons. I mean 2 years ago, we were in a tailspin until he came up, and then his presence really seemed to give us a jolt. Then you think about the start of last year, where he really seemed to energize us. Once he got sent down, that was right around when we started to struggle again. I think its very clear that this guy is a spark plug for our team. I know he has defensive deficiencies in his game, but so did practically every other player in our lineup last year. At least Josh has the ability to make up for those deficiencies, and then some, by creating a ton of chances at the other end of the ice. I think the good he produces for us outweighs the bad. Thus, we should take the approach of trying to gradually improve his defensive awareness, and live with the mistakes he makes in the mean time. I mean what do we have to lose, we were still giving up 5 goals a game after we sent him down anyway. I just feel like there was such a double standard under the old regime, where Ho sang would be punished severely for his mistakes, but then when veterans like Ladd made the same errors, they were never disciplined for it. Should Josh have pointed this out through the media toward the end of the season last year, of course not. That being said though, I agree with him. This guy is an electric player, and needs to be given a true opportunity to be the difference maker we all hope he can be. Assuming he responds to the "clean slate" that Lamoriello offered him in the right manner, I say give him the whole first half of the season to prove himself. No more mind games, no more harping on him for every last mistake he makes, no more double standard. Put him out there on a line with Bellows and Filpula every night, and see what he can do. If he flounders, then his trade value won't be much different than it is now, nothing to lose. However, under the tutelage of Trotz, he just might flourish, and put up 30 points through 40 games. Then, everyone will be singing his praises, and it will put us in a much better situation as an organization.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This could be the year Hosang turns it around. Lou's rules are there for a reason. The Kadri turnaround is a great example of this.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

This could be the year Hosang turns it around. Lou's rules are there for a reason. The Kadri turnaround is a great example of this.

Yes, I like Kadri as an example of how players mature and can get better. LL / Trotz will bring a fresh set of eyes and decide if Ho Sang has first line potential.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yes, I like Kadri as an example of how players mature and can get better. LL / Trotz will bring a fresh set of eyes and decide if Ho Sang has first line potential.

I can only see Trotz and Lamoriello's structure being a good thing, a great thing for Hosang infact. He is the type of player and personality that will benefit from structure.

 

[slurpee addict]

I'm really pulling for this guy this year, and quite frankly, feel he needs to be given a real chance to succeed. There is no denying he is a very naturally talented player. Considering his trade value is at its lowest right now, there is no point in unloading him. We need to find out exactly what we have in him, and that can only happen by giving him a role in the everyday lineup. I know they are short sample sizes, but there is no denying that this team has been significantly better when he has been in the lineup over the past 2 seasons. I mean 2 years ago, we were in a tailspin until he came up, and then his presence really seemed to give us a jolt. Then you think about the start of last year, where he really seemed to energize us. Once he got sent down, that was right around when we started to struggle again. I think its very clear that this guy is a spark plug for our team. I know he has defensive deficiencies in his game, but so did practically every other player in our lineup last year. At least Josh has the ability to make up for those deficiencies, and then some, by creating a ton of chances at the other end of the ice. I think the good he produces for us outweighs the bad. Thus, we should take the approach of trying to gradually improve his defensive awareness, and live with the mistakes he makes in the mean time. I mean what do we have to lose, we were still giving up 5 goals a game after we sent him down anyway. I just feel like there was such a double standard under the old regime, where Ho sang would be punished severely for his mistakes, but then when veterans like Ladd made the same errors, they were never disciplined for it. Should Josh have pointed this out through the media toward the end of the season last year, of course not. That being said though, I agree with him. This guy is an electric player, and needs to be given a true opportunity to be the difference maker we all hope he can be. Assuming he responds to the "clean slate" that Lamoriello offered him in the right manner, I say give him the whole first half of the season to prove himself. No more mind games, no more harping on him for every last mistake he makes, no more double standard. Put him out there on a line with Bellows and Filpula every night, and see what he can do. If he flounders, then his trade value won't be much different than it is now, nothing to lose. However, under the tutelage of Trotz, he just might flourish, and put up 30 points through 40 games. Then, everyone will be singing his praises, and it will put us in a much better situation as an organization.