Prospect Info: Jordan Kyrou (2016 Draft - 35 Overall)

[TruBlu]

I think it's a little more nuanced than that, at least for some.

Yes, the team is struggling out the gate, in no small part because their goals against has been atrocious. Not the ideal time to have rookies learning on the job, I'll fully admit.

Are those circumstances their fault, though? The Blues were running a less than ideal system for awhile and everyone was looking terrible defensively during that stretch. I put that on the coach.

Then the coach adjusted the system and the team started playing better, but they still found a way to lose in games they were competitive by making a few key mistakes at critical times. It wasn't the kids making those very crucial mistakes, so again, are they to blame?

Heck, Thomas has only been on the ice for two goals against this season, and Kyrou/Blais for four. As a comparison, Maroon has been out there for 11 ES goals against and Tarasenko for 13. The Blues have given up 39 goals this year, to put those numbers in perspective.

Caveat: I'm not sure what overlap there is between those goals against (i.e. if Blais/Thomas/Kyrou were out there as a line, each would have a goal against for a total of three by these counts, but it would only represent one of the 39 goals against the Blues have, so the apparent impact on the team would be overstated by the numbers I'm reporting relative to the actual impact). Since Kyrou/Thomas/Blais have all spent significant time on the 4th line, that's a real concern. Either way, they're not exactly getting lit up.

Once the team's back was against the wall, it seems like Yeo didn't really feel like he has the luxury of letting the kids learn on the job. I get that, but it's generally not the kids' fault the team is in that position.

If you think the NHL is a better developmental path for Thomas and Kyrou at this point, as I personally do, and if you think there's a chance they could develop into (relatively) useful players by the end of the season, then I feel like there's some room for displeasure about how all this is playing out. Displeasure with where the team currently is in the standings, and with the corner the coach has backed himself into with regards to some of the youngsters he might otherwise be able to cultivate at the NHL level...something the team itself seemed predisposed to doing when camp broke before everything went south.

We'll see how it all plays out, but at some point this team needs to suck it up and break in the guys who are most important to their future. Not give them a taste...really commit to their development at this level and break them in. The longer they find (or back into) reasons to put it off, the longer it will be before the kids will be making a difference. This core won't be together forever, so the clock is ticking.

I'm just venting my frustration. The team has been scoring for once, which has been fun to watch, but I'm just not used to seeing the shitty defense that has been put up. It is not the team I'm used to. The back end is the same back end we've had for a while, so I have to point fingers at the forward groups and system. I want the kids to play, but I have to agree with Yeo that it isn't a priority right now to give them experience when we are supposed to be competing for a cup.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I'm just venting my frustration. The team has been scoring for once, which has been fun to watch, but I'm just not used to seeing the ****ty defense that has been put up. It is not the team I'm used to. The back end is the same back end we've had for a while, so I have to point fingers at the forward groups and system. I want the kids to play, but I have to agree with Yeo that it isn't a priority right now to give them experience when we are supposed to be competing for a cup.

Yeo's priority should just be to win hockey games at this point. I get what he was saying with the Stanley Cup talk, but you have to walk before you can run and right now, the Blues are like that kid that just learned to walk but still falls a lot. I know I'm probably one of the members of this board who views the kids as essential to team success now and in the future, so it biases my opinion a bit. However, when I watch past Cup winners and runner ups over the last 3-4 years, I see a common theme. Good transition, foot speed, and skill all in use at the same time. Pittsburgh's defense basically knew to just retrieve the puck and get it up their forwards. Washington had all three combined with some physicality. Vegas basically beat you in transition and speed, combined with abnormally high shooting percentages for some players. The list goes on. The two top teams within the Central, Nashville and Winnipeg have those three elements in spades. Colorado has it in 4 players, but those 4 are dominating other teams right now. Thomas and Kyrou have that and while they need to develop their game, I understand Yeo's position of not being able to do that because his back is against a wall at the moment, but to me, that's his own doing through is player usage and system implementation. We'll see what happens and how player utilization continues, but if Yeo really has Stanley Cup aspirations for this team, something tells me, they'll end up needing one of if not both Thomas and Kyrou.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

A big part of the rookies not getting more minutes or more of an opportunity, was the need for the veteran players to get playing better. Unfortunately, the flexibility to accommodate the ups and down of rookie players has evaporated to a large part on a team whose season was on the brink just a couple weeks in. But my point is that a lot of this had nothing to do with the specific performance of Kyrou or Thomas, or at least not a performance different than you'd expect for any guy trying to jump from juniors to the NHL. It was about the performance of the rest of the team.

 

[Dbrownss]

A big part of the rookies not getting more minutes or more of an opportunity, was the need for the veteran players to get playing better. Unfortunately, the flexibility to accommodate the ups and down of rookie players has evaporated to a large part on a team whose season was on the brink just a couple weeks in. But my point is that a lot of this had nothing to do with the specific performance of Kyrou or Thomas, or at least not a performance different than you'd expect for any guy trying to jump from juniors to the NHL. It was about the performance of the rest of the team.

This is pretty spot on, just hard to rationalize. If the Vets are sinking the ship....why not take minutes away? Guess it's just how things are.

 

[MissouriMook]

Quick question, is Kyrou still eligible to be sent to the WJHC?

Didn't see this answered elsewhere, but he is not eligible. That is an Under 20 tournament and he turned 20 in May.

 

[Beauterham]

Kyrou's has been on fire lately. After a poor AHL start of the season (what was it, 1 point in 7 games or something like that?) he recorded 17 points in his last 9 games. Not too shabby. When should he be called up? Personally I hope they will keep him with the Rampage untill, at least, the trade deadline when we might be able to offer him more minutes than he got at the start of the season (barring sometrades ofc.): Lot of NHL minutes > lot of AHL minutes > low NHL minutes.

 

[Saint Loser]

No doubt Kyrou has figured out that the AHL strong and competitive and has learned what it takes to be successful there. A great sign.

I think the consensus here is to let him continue to dominate in the AHL and call him up for a few games toward the end of the season.

 

[MissouriMook]

To me, the focus on Kyrou's development should be based on what is best for him getting him ready for NHL duty next season. I think that means bringing him up for meaningful games for the last few weeks of this season, regardless of where we are in the playoff hunt. I don't want him spending training camp and the first part of next season getting (re)acclimated to the NHL, I want him as ready as he can be from Game 1.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

To me, the focus on Kyrou's development should be based on what is best for him getting him ready for NHL duty next season. I think that means bringing him up for meaningful games for the last few weeks of this season, regardless of where we are in the playoff hunt. I don't want him spending training camp and the first part of next season getting (re)acclimated to the NHL, I want him as ready as he can be from Game 1.

Ideally he can participate with the team as playoff depth (maybe as a regular depending on other circumstances, injuries, etc). No better way to see what the NHL is about than to be part of a playoff run.

 

[EastonBlues22]

I'm as big a Kyrou fan as anyone, and the points are great and all, but that's not really the part of his game that needed developing. I mean, was anyone truly concerned that he would have trouble (eventually) scoring at the NHL level, much less the AHL level?

If he's not rounding out his game to the point where an NHL coach will actually play him in the top 6, this is just wasted development time. Worse yet, it could actually be counter-productive if he's ingraining bad habits to chase the offense he thinks will get him back to the NHL.

 

[Saint Loser]

True that, EB22. If Kyrou cannot play both ends, then he cannot be in the top 6 and the 3rd line is not for him.

 

[542365]

I think as long as he’s serviceable in all three zones and puts forth effort everywhere that’s enough to be a very useful player. He could be Carl Hagelin/Darren Helm type if he wanted to be, but I’d much rather have a Johnny Gaudreau/Artemi Panarin type. If he produces anywhere near the way he has in juniors and the AHL you put up with the deficiencies.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Plenty of players with worse defensive games than Kyrou play in the top-6. His wheels, hands, vision, and above-average shot are enough to make him worth those minutes in the NHL.

I also think his poor defensive game is drastically blown out of proportion. Fabbri learned better defense at the NHL level, and Kyrou exhibited a better defensive game in Juniors than Fabbri did.

 

[Alklha]

Plenty of players with worse defensive games than Kyrou play in the top-6. His wheels, hands, vision, and above-average shot are enough to make him worth those minutes in the NHL.

I also think his poor defensive game is drastically blown out of proportion. Fabbri learned better defense at the NHL level, and Kyrou exhibited a better defensive game in Juniors than Fabbri did.

It might have been helpful if anyone had bothered to play defence when Kyrou was on the roster.

Not to say he was a scapegoat, but it's the easy one to bench or give limited minute to when we were all over the place.

As for how he is doing in the AHL, I haven't seen enough to comment other than he is getting time on the PK.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

He’s really not bad defensively. Elite? God no. By he’s kind of like a Panarin in that he’s better than one would expect. I would say we could easily expect Fabbri-lite level defense if he were to simply plateau at this point, but I also think he has the ability to be more like Barzal (and I don’t just mean this in reference to his offense - they really are similar all-around players). He’s similar to Barzal in that he can be a takeaway machine when he wants to - he’s just missing the “puck hog” puck control around the boards that makes Barzal so dynamic.

 

[EastonBlues22]

I agree that Kyrou has some real defensive potential. I think he looked better than he was given credit for in juniors, and he looked pretty effective with Thomas on the PK. That said, he was not particularly good in his NHL stint this year...more in the defensive and neutral zones than in the offensive zone, where he managed to come up with the puck a decent amount when the opposition was trying to regroup and exit their zone.

I also agree that the team's overall defensive structure being a mess certainly didn't help that, but the cold reality is that he was worse than most and he wasn't really using his gifts as effectively as he could have even allowing for a lower standard of play given his age and inexperience. Too often he was coasting through a zone when he could have been applying pressure to the puck or closing a gap, and he was not effective at all at supporting the play in the defensive zone. He doesn't need to be a defensive wizard, but these are basic things that are not beyond even his current level of ability.

For better or worse, building trust with the coaching staff that he can be a functional member of the team in all three zones is his quickest path to obtaining and maintaining significant NHL playing time.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Plenty of players with worse defensive games than Kyrou play in the top-6.

Correct. We allegedly even have one of them on our roster, and some people can't wait to trade him for anything they can get their hands on.

 

[Celtic Note]

Kyrou needs to round out his game away from the puck. He will score in the NHL when his confidence is in line with his capabilities. That I am not concerned about. But his play away from the puck in all three zones needs work. I think the AHL is certainly the place to do that. If there were a few minor kinks in his game, I would give him the Thomas treatment, but, honestly, he has more than enough AHL work to do. I would expect that by this time next year we are happy that he got the AHL time, because he is performing well on the NHL club.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Kyrou needs to round out his game away from the puck. He will score in the NHL when his confidence is in line with his capabilities. That I am not concerned about. But his play away from the puck in all three zones needs work. I think the AHL is certainly the place to do that. If there were a few minor kinks in his game, I would give him the Thomas treatment, but, honestly, he has more than enough AHL work to do. I would expect that by this time next year we are happy that he got the AHL time, because he is performing well on the NHL club.

Don’t get me wrong, Kyrou is fine in the AHL for this year. I think that’s better for him at this point if he wants to be a more complete player, and, in my opinion most importantly, to develop his confidence. He needs to return to the NHL with tons of it if he is to really use his tools effectively. I think that also is why his first stint was impressive defensively - he needs to be activating his legs and skating in straight lines in order to be effective and without confidence he will be positioning himself on the outside of most plays.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I'm as big a Kyrou fan as anyone, and the points are great and all, but that's not really the part of his game that needed developing. I mean, was anyone truly concerned that he would have trouble (eventually) scoring at the NHL level, much less the AHL level?

If he's not rounding out his game to the point where an NHL coach will actually play him in the top 6, this is just wasted development time. Worse yet, it could actually be counter-productive if he's ingraining bad habits to chase the offense he thinks will get him back to the NHL.

Isn’t that kind of the point of controlling the AHL affiliate? The Blues can employ a coach who will prioritize his development in terms of what he needs for NHL success. Is there any evidence that isn’t happening?

 

[EastonBlues22]

Isn’t that kind of the point of controlling the AHL affiliate? The Blues can employ a coach who will prioritize his development in terms of what he needs for NHL success. Is there any evidence that isn’t happening?

Controlling the AHL affiliate gives you input on things like the system they run, full control over the roster, who gets what roles and what ice time, etc.

Important things, but not things that necessarily micro-manage a player's skill development on an individual level, and there's no guarantee that a coach whose job security and future employment prospects depends at least partly on a successful product (i.e. winning) is going to sacrifice that completely for the sake of a prospect's education. In other words, it's not like the coach down there is likely to bench Kyrou if he's sacrificing some defense to put up points on a team that's starved for offense, or even to cut his playing time drastically.

What other consequences are there beyond not getting called up to the Blues? That threat is undercut by the harsh reality that if you're not producing points in the AHL (especially as a forward), you're probably not getting a call to the NHL, and by the classic double-standard that exists at all levels of hockey...if you score enough, defensive deficiencies will generally be overlooked. Kyrou was able to score at that pace in juniors, and is quite possibly doing it right now in the AHL. He's going to have a lot harder time doing it in the NHL where he won't be easily outscoring the competition in the top six anytime soon.

I'm sure Kyrou gets feedback on what he needs to improve and some input on how he can do things better, but a lot of it is still going to fall on him to prioritize it and improve it on his own. The coaching staff has other things to do besides babysit him full time. They have their own jobs to do, and a team full of other players that demand their attention as well.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Important things, but not things that necessarily micro-manage a player's skill development on an individual level, and there's no guarantee that a coach whose job security and future employment prospects depends at least partly on a successful product (i.e. winning) is going to sacrifice that completely for the sake of a prospect's education.

I get that at this point we're playing "big boy" hockey and the days of "just learn the sport, don't focus on winning" are largely in the rear view mirror, but I also think there's something to be said about getting clear direction from up above on what the AHL (and maybe even ECHL) coach's job is. At times, "develop our talent" and "create a winning product" are incompatible goals and so it's up to the organization to decide which is the higher priority. IMO, if "win games" takes precedent on a young squad where you know you have guys who need to learn stuff to be dependable NHLers, that's a problem.

I especially would like to think a 1st-year HC in the AHL isn't getting "go win games now or your job could be on the line" especially after 3 successful years in the OHL. No, I'm not saying "give the guy unlimited time to start winning" - that would obviously be silly - but I think there's "get your feet wet, get your system in place" and then there's "make your system work." At this point in time, I'd eschew results for player development provided that we actually get player development. If we do, then results should come along anyway.

Otherwise, I think you're spot-on. I know Kyrou is one of the shiny coins we have at the moment, but I think people are getting so caught up in he scored a bunch in juniors, he's scoring a bunch in the AHL that they forget there's an entire other part of the game that needs attention as well. It's like the ongoing focus this offseason on "moar scoring" which totally ignored the defensive side of things - and in the tail end of last season, our defensive deficiencies were on display but getting overlooked because Allen was in another "burning dumpster" phase. You gotta play complete hockey at the NHL level, unless you want to try and find consistent success winning games 8-6 - and no one has figured out how to do that in the last several years.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Controlling the AHL affiliate gives you input on things like the system they run, full control over the roster, who gets what roles and what ice time, etc.

Important things, but not things that necessarily micro-manage a player's skill development on an individual level, and there's no guarantee that a coach whose job security and future employment prospects depends at least partly on a successful product (i.e. winning) is going to sacrifice that completely for the sake of a prospect's education. In other words, it's not like the coach down there is likely to bench Kyrou if he's sacrificing some defense to put up points on a team that's starved for offense, or even to cut his playing time drastically.

What other consequences are there beyond not getting called up to the Blues? That threat is undercut by the harsh reality that if you're not producing points in the AHL (especially as a forward), you're probably not getting a call to the NHL, and by the classic double-standard that exists at all levels of hockey...if you score enough, defensive deficiencies will generally be overlooked. Kyrou was able to score at that pace in juniors, and is quite possibly doing it right now in the AHL. He's going to have a lot harder time doing it in the NHL where he won't be easily outscoring the competition in the top six anytime soon.

I'm sure Kyrou gets feedback on what he needs to improve and some input on how he can do things better, but a lot of it is still going to fall on him to prioritize it and improve it on his own. The coaching staff has other things to do besides babysit him full time. They have their own jobs to do, and a team full of other players that demand their attention as well.

The same things are true of the NHL coaching staff, regarding their split priorities between development and winning, but skewed a lot more toward winning. The AHL has a bit more luxury to sacrifice winning in favor of development. I don’t really follow your argument here. The Blues hand-picked this coach and oversee his work.

In the short time Kyrou has been there, he is nearly the only player who is a plus player, amd by a large margin. They don’t appear to be giving up lots of goals when he’s out there. I just don’t see how getting big minutes playing against men in the AHL is not preferable to small minutes in a limited role in the NHL at this stage for him. They already tried starting him in the NHL. Either through the foibles of the coaching or the limitations of the player himself (both really) it was not working very well.

 

[EastonBlues22]

The same things are true of the NHL coaching staff, regarding their split priorities between development and winning, but skewed a lot more toward winning. The AHL has a bit more luxury to sacrifice winning in favor of development. I don’t really follow your argument here. The Blues hand-picked this coach and oversee his work.

In the short time Kyrou has been there, he is nearly the only player who is a plus player, amd by a large margin. They don’t appear to be giving up lots of goals when he’s out there. I just don’t see how getting big minutes playing against men in the AHL is not preferable to small minutes in a limited role in the NHL at this stage for him. They already tried starting him in the NHL. Either through the foibles of the coaching or the limitations of the player himself (both really) it was not working very well.

I'm not really pitching an argument, or saying the AHL isn't preferable at this point. I'm just sharing a concern regarding what Kyrou is focused on and whether or not he's actually developing what he needs to be developing. We don't know, and Kyrou putting up points is great, but it's not an answer to those questions. I'm not going to get into the "merits" (or lack thereof) of evaluating the quality of an individual's defensive play by his plus-minus, as I don't really think that argument should need to be made at this point. Suffice to say that isn't an answer to those questions, either.

At the NHL level, yes, things are largely the same except you're overseeing the prospect directly, and the punitive measures for non-compliance (reduced playing time, reduced role, being sent to the AHL) have a lot more bite. I think it's easier to keep a prospect's head where it needs when he's under NHL supervision, though clearly there's a need to balance that against getting a prospect the playing time needed to develop, and also the reality that the NHL group simply can't babysit a whole bunch of prospects.

Anyway, the Blues may "oversee" what's going on in the AHL, but I don't think the oversight or input is quite as hands-on and responsive as you seem to be implying at an individual player development level.

Certainly I'd wager that Berube and his coaching staff have essentially zero idea what's going on with Kyrou or anyone else down there, much less any direct input into how he's being handled beyond the "We'd like to see you work on ____ while you're in the AHL" parting speech I'm sure every prospect gets when they get sent down. Since they're ultimately the ones who determine how much playing time Kyrou gets while in the NHL and what role he fills, at some point Kyrou's disconnect from them has the potential to matter.

It's certainly possible that those things simply don't matter right now, or that they're outweighed by the benefits to be gained by increased playing time, etc. It's also possible that Kyrou's head is exactly where he needs to be and he's developing perfectly, and any concern is completely unfounded. I guess we'll see the next time he's called up. Until then, I'm going to remain concerned until I get some news that actually alleviates the concerns I have about his development.

 

[Spektre]

Ok, bring the kid up already. The roster is dressing Brouwer, Mac Mac, de la something, and Walker. The team will need help scoring and there's a great opportunity to slot Kyrou with one of the top two lines. I don't get the wait. I get he missed camp, had an injury, needed to skate etc.. We're past that point. Calling all Kyrou....