Well, my apologies then, lots of talk going on in this thread and other threads about people constantly complaining about Maroon and also complaining about Kyrou's ice time so I put 2 and 2 together. I just debated someone else in another thread that said Kyrou is a better player. Seems to me that more people than just him have that opinion, but I could be wrong there.
No worries. It can easily get confusing when there's parallel conversations going on.
I stand by my case that Maroon has done more. Such as the goal he created by hitting Seabrook in which he didn't receive an assist but obviously deserved one. So by my eye test, I don't see Kyrou generating more.
If the better player was determined by who has gotten more scoring chances that they didn't convert on, then yeah Kyrou is a great player. But that's not reality because he has not converted and has produced very little.
I can understand the results trumps opportunities perspective, but I personally feel like that carries more weight when the sample size is big enough to have a few ebbs and flows averaged in. Kyrou has had 90 minutes of ice time. Chances are pretty good that if he continues generating opportunities at that rate, eventually a few more of them will start going in. I would expect Sanford's production to cool for exactly the same reason, even if he keeps playing exactly like he is right now. ROR too, for that matter. He's simply not finishing with 115 points this season. Things tend to even out in the long run, and right now those two are on the good side of things and Kyrou isn't.
As far as I'm concerned, the PP unit of Dunn, Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Bozak and Maroon is playing great, so why mess with that? Whether you think Maroon is mediocre at standing in front of the goalie or not, that unit seems to be working to me. You say Maroon has only caused 1 goal by being a screen, but that still counts and is another goal that I'm pretty sure he didn't receive a point for. So that's now 2 instances where he helped create a goal, to go along with his 6 points. So in 10 games, he could easily have 8 points. That's not pretty good? I think it is, and I feel a lot of you are underrating him. Is he amazing? No, of course not. I want him on the 4th line when Fabbri returns. But I think he'll do fine there.
For one thing, players are constantly doing things to help a team score that they don't necessarily get a point for. Setting picks, holding lines, executing a controlled zone entry, back-checking/fore-checking, causing turnovers, winning faceoffs, distracting the coverage of an opponent, etc. You can't get a shot if you don't have possession in the zone, and you can't have that without an entry/faceoff win/turnover at some point, so should we reward theoretical points for all those things as well? They matter just as much, if not more, since you can easily score a goal without a screen, but you're never scoring a goal without establishing possession inside the zone (save for empty net bombs).
Yes, the Blues PP is performing at the moment. Should that stop us from evaluating what about it is working and what isn't doing all that much? I don't think it's unduly harsh to say that very little of that unit's performance can be attributed to Maroon. He's not contributing to the zone entries. His possession play, play-making, and puck skills under pressure are a notable step below most top 6 quality forwards. His best and most frequent contribution is literally receiving a pass at the side of the net, pivoting, and jamming it into the goaltender's pads. Someone like Steen can do anything Maroon is doing while also offering an upgrade in the areas where Maroon is sub-par.
If one doesn't want to rock the boat at the moment, that's fine, but this conversation was started back before the unit got hot (which largely coincided with Dunn's return to it), and it can (and should) be revisited once it inevitably cools off.
The next unit is Schwartz, Schenn, Perron, Pietrangelo, and Steen. Who are you replacing with Kyrou? I'm guessing Steen. I'd be okay with that, but I don't think it would make much of a difference. I'm not arguing that Kyrou shouldn't get any PP time. I wish he got at least 1 shift to see us what he could potentially do. I think it's a bit ridiculous that he got all of 0 seconds. But, it is what it is and I wasn't impressed by him at even strength.
If I was setting things up, I'd do something like this:
Perron/ROR/Schenn/Schwartz/Dunn - Run things through Perron on the left wall. ROR/Schenn/Schwartz can all perform in the slot, near the net, or on the right wall, which opens the option of using movement to confuse the coverage and create opportunities...especially if the net guy is playing more as a back door option. The mid/high slot, weak side, back door, and point all offer one-timer options, and you can even swing a pass through the point to the right wall for a one-timer, or to move the puck down low for a jam play or pop-out pass to the guy who was previously positioned back door. I favor having Schwartz down low, ROR in the middle, and Schenn on the right wall if you want to be a bit more static in the positioning.
Kyrou/Bozak/Tarasenko/Steen/Pietrangelo - Run things through Tarasenko on the right wall. With Bozak in the mid/high slot, you have one-timer options there, on the weak side, and at the point, with once again having that swing option through the point to the left wall for a one-timer (a threat that puts some bite into the rotation play). Steen is a capable option down low for a pop-out pass option, jam play, etc. and can screen if the shot is coming from out high. If you want a second defender out there, put Parayko on the left wall instead of Kyrou and you're not messing much with the dynamics and play of the unit.
Going by giveaways, Kyrou has been less responsible with the puck too. So yeah aside from bringing speed, I'm not seeing how he's contributing much right now. I did see the stats you posted in some other thread about the high danger scoring chances, would be interested in how many he's gotten in each game because I can really only remember 2-3 games where I thought he did something.
I'm in full agreement that Kyrou's non-offense game has been sub-par, so I don't want it to sound like I'm saying his overall play has been super-duper. I'm only talking about his offense here.
As far as giveaways go, that's not unusual. He's been asked to carry the puck up the ice on his line far more than someone like Maroon, and he routinely tries to gain the zone with possession as well. Guys who do those things inevitably have more turnovers. Last year the top 20 forwards in giveaways were (in order): Gaudreau, Barzal, Huberdeau, Williams, Draisaitl, Trochek, Larkin, Kucherov, Tavares, Marchand, Pastrnak, Crosby, Lucic, Malkin, Miller, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Hoffman, Hall, and McDavid. No coach is asking most of those guys to dump the puck more, and once Kyrou seasons a little, I don't think we'll want him dumping the puck, either. The turnovers are just going to be the price you pay for the other benefits you receive (the controlled zone entries, and ultimately the scoring chances that derive from those).
Per NaturalStatTrick, here's the 5v5 individual SCF/HDSCF for all of our forwards, as well as their total 5v5 TOI in a TOI, iSCF, iHDSCF format:
Tarasenko, 137:13, 30, 14
Schenn, 140:51, 21, 14
ROR, 134:31, 16, 5
Schwartz, 103:34, 15, 6
Bozak, 112:03, 14, 8
Kyrou, 91:07, 14, 5
Steen, 116:24, 14, 3
Perron, 121:39, 11, 4
Sanford, 53:31 8, 5
Blais, 83:13, 7, 3
Barbashev, 87:24, 7, 2
Thomas, 54:36, 6, 3
Maroon, 115:39, 5, 3
Sundqvist, 15:01, 2, 1
As you can see, nobody is averaging multiple high danger chances a game at 5v5. The league leader in iHDSCF is Tavares at 20 (in 177:28 minutes) in 12 games, with 1.67 per game. Tarasenko and Schenn are the only Blues averaging at least one HDSCF a game, so even that seemingly modest threshold is a pretty high standard.
I think most good forwards feel more dangerous than those numbers would suggest on a game by game basis because our perceptions of them are colored by how effective and dangerous they can look on the PP, where they have more time and space to show off their abilities and where it's generally a lot easier to rack up iSCF/iHDSCF.
In 39:25 minutes of PP TOI, for example, Maroon has 11 iSCF and 8 iHDSCF (Yay, jam plays!). That 11 combined iHDSCF (and 27 overall individual chances), or almost 3 chances a game with 1 of them being high danger, leaves a
much different impression of his offensive impact on the game than one would have if they were only watching him play 5v5 every game. I honestly believe that if Maroon wasn't on the PP, there would be a lot of chatter about why he's not already stapled to the 4th line. As it is, there's essentially none.
Anyway, Kyrou's individual offensive production (in terms of chances, anyway) hasn't been up to the standards of the best we have at 5v5, but it's been consistent with the other top 6 options on the team, even with 4th line minutes. As a rookie, I find that to be pretty encouraging, though the sample size is clearly small.
Thus far Maroon's individual production at 5v5 has arguably been the worst on the team. It's notable mostly because I think that will come as a surprise to many given the generally positive impressions of his play at the moment, not because I necessarily expect that to hold true for the rest of the season (as once again small sample size caveats apply).
To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that Kyrou should still be with the big club (though I'm not personally bullish on the move), or make any other roster related arguments. I'm not even trying to throw shade on Maroon, though these numbers aren't particularly flattering for him. I'm just putting this information out there for what it is because you seemed curious and it was worth unpacking it a little bit for discussion.
