Proposal: Jonathan Toews To NYR

[Stickpucker]

I think Rangers definitely should be interested if there was big retention. They really lack a good defensive 2 or 3c as well as shutdown top 4d.

They have enough talent and transition game/speed...goaltending is solid...I don't think they want to go with the Leafs or Caps of past run and gun outscore your problems model.

 

[thesaadfather]

Exactly they are going to get younger and acquire more young assets to fill the team. You can't do that if you don't move one of Kane, Toews, or Keith. You just can't, not in todays NHL. They're gonna have to make a choice and I have that 95% gut feeling it's Toews. He'll net them a return that puts that franchise forward instead of hanging on to a veteran and losing him for nothing. And you're not trading Kane nor are you gonna even begin to get a decent sized return for a 37 year old Keith. Like I said Toews is the odd man out in this. But you are right, it's fully up to Toews himself...I just really don't think he wants to stay for the rest of his career. He wants to win again, he wants to compete and in 3 years when he's a ufa I don't think Chicago will be competing in any sense of the word just yet. Trading Toews and Keith isn't tearing it down, they still have a reputable roster to build around without them but you can't begin building further if you don't move on from them is my point. I know what he means to CHI, but that's why there is a letter out now. You don't publish that and do absolutely nothing going forward as a rebuilding club. Bowman and company are grooming the fans for decent heartbreak

You can say all that, but I trust people with sources in the organization more than I trust you. They’re all saying that Toews isn’t going to waive his NMC. I think Bowman probably knows that. So they’ll keep him and let him mentor the young’s guys. Also, I have no idea what you mean by, “You can't do that if you don't move one of Kane, Toews, or Keith. You just can't, not in todays NHL.” Of course they can. If they were doing a scorched earth rebuild, sure, trade everything of value for picks and prospects. But they’re not doing that.

 

[SRHRangers]

You can say all that, but I trust people with sources in the organization more than I trust you. They’re all saying that Toews isn’t going to waive his NMC. I think Bowman probably knows that. So they’ll keep him and let him mentor the young’s guys. Also, I have no idea what you mean by, “You can't do that if you don't move one of Kane, Toews, or Keith. You just can't, not in todays NHL.” Of course they can. If they were doing a scorched earth rebuild, sure, trade everything of value for picks and prospects. But they’re not doing that.

And if Toews didn't waive his NMC, that is fine and respected.

I'm just saying that this is the guy the Rangers should look into, despite the stance of staying with the pure youth process.

 

[bernmeister]

Continuing to build for how long exactly? 2 more years? 3 more years? 4 or 5 more years? At some point my guy you stop building and you go forth with adding the players to get the job done. And people seem to forget by 2024 Panarin is 32 and Zibanejad is 31. The time to truly win is when you still have your young guns on ELC and on bridge deals. We aren't "building" anymore....we aren't going into next season wanting to pick in the top 15 again. The idea that we would gut our farm system to get Toews is ridiculous. Even after losing someone like a Kravtsov or a Lundkvist we're more than ok. Replacing Strome with a top end C at a cost controlled state is a priority for sure. Strome isn't staying here long term anyways

Thing is you can say the exact same thing once Strome is extended. IF he's extended. Strome is bound to get anywhere from 6-7. If you can clock Toews in at that price point and replace Strome with Toews, that's a huge win. Kakko and Fox will not be getting big extensions and will mostly be bridge deals. For guys like Shesterkin and Laf it's really up for debate on what they COULD get. Even then, we got so much money coming off in the next year we can most definitely squeak everyone we need to be a cup contender. All the big teams do it and make it work......won't be any different for us. If it means moving on from guys like Buchnevich down the road so be it.

It is not unreasonable, being close enough in, to splurge carefully to elevate us past fellow contenders to get a better shot at the cup.

However, this is not the year for that.
I agree with @cwede this upcoming season we lose excess vets and let the emerging youth find chemistry and gel so following year we kick ass.

Also, would rather pay for youth like possibly Cozens from BUF or other than vet like Toews.

Also, the more youth you deal now, the harder it is to take multiple runs at the cup with a young core, because that core is smaller.

Your intentions are good.
Patience.

 

[bernmeister]

You can say all that, but I trust people with sources in the organization more than I trust you. They’re all saying that Toews isn’t going to waive his NMC. I think Bowman probably knows that. So they’ll keep him and let him mentor the young’s guys. Also, I have no idea what you mean by, “You can't do that if you don't move one of Kane, Toews, or Keith. You just can't, not in todays NHL.” Of course they can. If they were doing a scorched earth rebuild, sure, trade everything of value for picks and prospects. But they’re not doing that.

bold is a dominant consideration, I also expect he won't waive.
to this outsider, seems like comfortable fit with team's recent history

 

[FireGorton]

As a non-Rags fan I'd say that's a huge overpay for the age of the player and cap hit. I get that Kravtsov wasn't great last year, but I wouldn't give up on him yet. Your 1st could still be pretty high next year.

Oh it will be a high first because the genius gm thinks Jack Johnson playing top pair minutes is a good thing. He paid a 2nd rounder for that privilege because he has cap management problems with a rebuilding team...

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Rangers have a good thing going on: a great rebuild EVEN without the redonkylous draft luck.

Even with 50% retention, I don't think Rangers should be interested.

Look up Steven MacDonalds Badge, it’s not luck but rather divine intervention

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Oh it will be a high first because the genius gm thinks Jack Johnson playing top pair minutes is a good thing. He paid a 2nd rounder for that privilege because he has cap management problems with a rebuilding team...

Yeah not sure why Gorton was the only one who didn’t see COVID coming and the only one having to make unsavory cap compliant moves on a contract he inherited. We all agree that JMFJ was a head scratcher given the other options and costs but hes been solid overall and this off-season. It’s time you seek the power of forgiveness for Gorton peeing in your wheaties and kicking your dog.

 

[bbny]

It is not unreasonable, being close enough in, to splurge carefully to elevate us past fellow contenders to get a better shot at the cup.

However, this is not the year for that.
I agree with @cwede this upcoming season we lose excess vets and let the emerging youth find chemistry and gel so following year we kick ass.

Also, would rather pay for youth like possibly Cozens from BUF or other than vet like Toews.

Also, the more youth you deal now, the harder it is to take multiple runs at the cup with a young core, because that core is smaller.

Your intentions are good.
Patience.

The Rangers have plenty of excess assets to make a move that allows them to start turning the corner from seed 9-12 to playoffs. Panarin and Zibanejad are in their primes now, and you'll have 3 years of Lafreniere on his ELC. Toews is on a short term contract now with only 3 years left, and he fits probably the second largest need of the team (after 1LD). I wouldn't do it without ~3M of retention, and I'm not an advocate of gutting the farm, but I'm in full support of getting Toews if they comply with both of those conditions.

 

[SRHRangers]

As much as I would want Barkov, an impending FA Barkov would never fit into the cap plans if the Blueshirts do the right thing with Z. It just wouldn't be a fit unfortunately.

Same argument with Eichel. You would be choosing between Eichel and Z with the raises coming to the kids.

Why I think this is an opportunity with Toews with rentention.

The Rangers will also have plenty left in the cupboard if they dealt Kravtsov.

 

[bernmeister]

The Rangers have plenty of excess assets to make a move that allows them to start turning the corner from seed 9-12 to playoffs. Panarin and Zibanejad are in their primes now, and you'll have 3 years of Lafreniere on his ELC. Toews is on a short term contract now with only 3 years left, and he fits probably the second largest need of the team (after 1LD). I wouldn't do it without ~3M of retention, and I'm not an advocate of gutting the farm, but I'm in full support of getting Toews if they comply with both of those conditions.

respect you have a counter view, on this one agree to disagree.
My vote is no.

EDIT ADD:
Also, if we did something like this after upcoming season --- and I am NOT endorsing that we do, just making a point --- value 0f our youth goes up [presumably] based on production and experience [e.g. as was case w/Chytil this yr].
So even if you entertain this idea at all, now is NOT the right time.

 

[AirGut]

You can say all that, but I trust people with sources in the organization more than I trust you. They’re all saying that Toews isn’t going to waive his NMC. I think Bowman probably knows that. So they’ll keep him and let him mentor the young’s guys. Also, I have no idea what you mean by, “You can't do that if you don't move one of Kane, Toews, or Keith. You just can't, not in todays NHL.” Of course they can. If they were doing a scorched earth rebuild, sure, trade everything of value for picks and prospects. But they’re not doing that.

Like I said my point is if you aren't moving out older players to acquire youth, where are you getting that youth? Euro signings? The yearly teener 1st round pick that you're forced to hit the mark on? They have two key building blocks in Dach and Boqvist, they need more than just that. Keeping the core 4 puts them in this weird limbo state that so many teams have been in and suffered the consequences for.

 

[bernmeister]

As much as I would want Barkov, an impending FA Barkov would never fit into the cap plans if the Blueshirts do the right thing with Z. It just wouldn't be a fit unfortunately.

Same argument with Eichel. You would be choosing between Eichel and Z with the raises coming to the kids.

Why I think this is an opportunity with Toews with rentention.

The Rangers will also have plenty left in the cupboard if they dealt Kravtsov.

I apparently rate Krav higher than you do.
Also I would not deal for Barkov unless we had permission to negotiate in advance [a la Pageau and Isles].
But I think while any interim would require juggling, Trouba can be dealt before end of his deal. That is where you get most 0f Barkov $ long term.

As to Zib, want to hold off, not til last min, but I would likely overpay short term deal for his prime, like 2-3 yrs. But no long term. If he wants term, buh bye for strong rental return.

And that is an0ther reason why you hang on to cheap productive youth.
You expect to extend Zib, but you may have to go to plan B. Having youth options better than not having.

 

[Aurinko]

There is a certain charm when nobody has won anything, you raise your own players and you don't just buy the win.

I see Rangers as Zibanejad's team. I think he has enough leadership and charisma to lead them.

 

[thesaadfather]

Like I said my point is if you aren't moving out older players to acquire youth, where are you getting that youth? Euro signings? The yearly teener 1st round pick that you're forced to hit the mark on? They have two key building blocks in Dach and Boqvist, they need more than just that. Keeping the core 4 puts them in this weird limbo state that so many teams have been in and suffered the consequences for.

They’re really not in limbo though. They’re a bottom feeder. They finished 12th in the west last year. The only reason they weren’t picking in the top 10 was COVID happened and they beat Edmonton in the play in. This was a roster that finished in the bottom 10 last year, and the most significant change in the roster over the last 12 months was going from maybe the best goalie tandem in the league to probably the worst. This is a team that, barring some miracle, is going to be picking in the top 10, and most likely top 5. So I’m not really sure what you’re talking about

 

[bbny]

respect you have a counter view, on this one agree to disagree.
My vote is no.

EDIT ADD:
Also, if we did something like this after upcoming season --- and I am NOT endorsing that we do, just making a point --- value 0f our youth goes up [presumably] based on production and experience [e.g. as was case w/Chytil this yr].
So even if you entertain this idea at all, now is NOT the right time.

Value of youth can also go down, which I know you've accounted for by inserting presumably, but it does come across as a bit disregarded as a possibility with the approach you lay out. As it stands now, the Rangers have many more prospects who have good value attached to them than expected roster spots on the team moving forward. You might agree with me that a large part of the reason you build deep like this isn't to keep them all, but to utilize some of that depth to make trades.

Maybe we just disagree with timing, but I think you leverage some now without breaking the bank. I remember the discussions around Panarin and whether or not the Rangers should sign him, plenty voiced concern that it wasn't time and to save the money for someone else later. It would have been nice to have been able to wait a year, maybe two, before making a free agent splash like that. But sometimes the timeline doesn't fit a perfect model. My point is you are not guaranteed to have a Toews-level center with his resume and experience available for trade next year, but he might be available now. Sometimes you do things when the opportunity presents itself. Later on, it's too easy to force the wrong player in just because the timing is more "right".

 

[pld459666]

Miller maybe, Schneider most likely not, Robertson as well as Jones definitely not and if Lundkvist doesn't have a spot on this team in the next year he's walking as a UFA on July 1st, 2022 no doubt. We aren't waiting 2 more years to be "all ready to go". It's either we start making deep pushes in the next 2-3 years or we just wasted a lot of potential at actually winning a cup with a deeply talented cap controlled roster.




The Hawks cannot expect to just sign Euros like Kubalik all the time and have them pan out or expect teener picks to become ready by the time Toews contract is up. Bowman knows this, it's either trade him when you can get something back for him or he leaves in 3 years. He isn't staying in Chicago.....that's a dream at this point. The guys listed are all real good young pieces they already have especially Dach. Dach is your 1C sooner rather than later. So why would Bowman announce a full rebuild now and NOT trade a guy like Toews? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They aren't moving Kane as he's still a top echelon player and will be by the time they do eventually get good again but Toews isn't Kane and if your a GM I'd think you're smart enough to realize you aren't gonna get any concrete picks or prospects/young assets by moving JUST Keith. Toews is the odd man out. It's time to move on from him now

The left side of the D is void after Lindgren

Capable Centers behind Mika are non-existant at the moment. As much as I like Strome, he's not the 2nd line center you ant on a contending team.

Bottom 6 are still either a huge group of question marks or all duds.

We are not contending for a cup before 22-23. To expect otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment

Playoffs, yes, 21-22 I can see. Actual contention? Nah.

 

[AirGut]

They’re really not in limbo though. They’re a bottom feeder. They finished 12th in the west last year. The only reason they weren’t picking in the top 10 was COVID happened and they beat Edmonton in the play in. This was a roster that finished in the bottom 10 last year, and the most significant change in the roster over the last 12 months was going from maybe the best goalie tandem in the league to probably the worst. This is a team that, barring some miracle, is going to be picking in the top 10, and most likely top 5. So I’m not really sure what you’re talking about

And you really fully believe Toews is going to be wanting to stay on a lottery team for the next half decade? The guy is a machine built to win, he might talk blah blah about how he'll stay the course (which he really hasn't yet) and in a year he's already put through the ringer. They all do, it's why I said he's a stoic personality that many many teams could use. Trust me if the Hawks don't move Toews in the next year for young assets he's gone July 1st, 2023. And by then Bowman would be deeply regretting not moving him when he could. Also, moving JT isn't scorched earth. He's just the one expendable asset you have that could actually give good value back now. The longer you wait till 2023 the less and less that value becomes though that's the thing.

 

[AirGut]

Value of youth can also go down, which I know you've accounted for by inserting presumably, but it does come across as a bit disregarded as a possibility with the approach you lay out. As it stands now, the Rangers have many more prospects who have good value attached to them than expected roster spots on the team moving forward. You might agree with me that a large part of the reason you build deep like this isn't to keep them all, but to utilize some of that depth to make trades.

Maybe we just disagree with timing, but I think you leverage some now without breaking the bank. I remember the discussions around Panarin and whether or not the Rangers should sign him, plenty voiced concern that it wasn't time and to save the money for someone else later. It would have been nice to have been able to wait a year, maybe two, before making a free agent splash like that. But sometimes the timeline doesn't fit a perfect model. My point is you are not guaranteed to have a Toews-level center with his resume and experience available for trade next year, but he might be available now. Sometimes you do things when the opportunity presents itself. Later on, it's too easy to force the wrong player in just because the timing is more "right".

This. 100%

 

[SRHRangers]

I apparently rate Krav higher than you do.
Also I would not deal for Barkov unless we had permission to negotiate in advance [a la Pageau and Isles].
But I think while any interim would require juggling, Trouba can be dealt before end of his deal. That is where you get most 0f Barkov $ long term.

As to Zib, want to hold off, not til last min, but I would likely overpay short term deal for his prime, like 2-3 yrs. But no long term. If he wants term, buh bye for strong rental return.

And that is an0ther reason why you hang on to cheap productive youth.
You expect to extend Zib, but you may have to go to plan B. Having youth options better than not having.

I rate Kravtsov high, but like I said in a prior post, it's more likely that he doesn't match Toews performance from the last 2 seasons. That is not a knock, I just don't see him as a star.

But, to get a deal done, I have to deal someone. Nils isn't on the table for me, and I rather deal Kravtsov than Miller.

It's not like Toews is a washed up vet. He would be a 65 pt. 2C.

Trouba is not getting dealt in the Covid world.

 

[thadd]

Holy overpayment, Batman.
If Chicago retains 50% maybe they get that value.

 

[SRHRangers]

Holy overpayment, Batman.
If Chicago retains 50% maybe they get that value.

Well that was exactly the proposal I laid out.

50% Retention is automatic imo

 

[thesaadfather]

And you really fully believe Toews is going to be wanting to stay on a lottery team for the next half decade? The guy is a machine built to win, he might talk blah blah about how he'll stay the course (which he really hasn't yet) and in a year he's already put through the ringer. They all do, it's why I said he's a stoic personality that many many teams could use. Trust me if the Hawks don't move Toews in the next year for young assets he's gone July 1st, 2023. And by then Bowman would be deeply regretting not moving him when he could. Also, moving JT isn't scorched earth. He's just the one expendable asset you have that could actually give good value back now. The longer you wait till 2023 the less and less that value becomes though that's the thing.

Well given, that I don’t know Jonathan Toews, and I’m pretty sure you don’t either, I’m going to go with the people actually in the know on this one.

“Toews is a Blackhawks lifer. He told me in no uncertain terms that he has not ever been approached about waiving his NMC, and that he has no intention of doing so.

“I haven’t been a part of that conversation,” he said. “This has all happened pretty suddenly, but the answer is no. Chicago’s my home, and I want to win here again.””

Sorry, but I believe Jonathan Toews more than you.

 

[AirGut]

Well given, that I don’t know Jonathan Toews, and I’m pretty sure you don’t either, I’m going to go with the people actually in the know on this one.

“Toews is a Blackhawks lifer. He told me in no uncertain terms that he has not ever been approached about waiving his NMC, and that he has no intention of doing so.

“I haven’t been a part of that conversation,” he said. “This has all happened pretty suddenly, but the answer is no. Chicago’s my home, and I want to win here again.””

Sorry, but I believe Jonathan Toews more than you.

Screen this thread and remember to reply back in a year or two. Toews era is as good as dead going forward. Anyone left clinging to the hope he wants to stay probably also thought Tavares was an Isle lifer. Toews already won his cups, he's either going to go back home or find another contender to play for. CHI is not a contender in 3 years

 

[FireGorton]

Yeah not sure why Gorton was the only one who didn’t see COVID coming and the only one having to make unsavory cap compliant moves on a contract he inherited. We all agree that JMFJ was a head scratcher given the other options and costs but hes been solid overall and this off-season. It’s time you seek the power of forgiveness for Gorton peeing in your wheaties and kicking your dog.

What does COVID have to do with him buying out Shattenkirk and adding 6 million dollars dead cap space? Pretty sure he signed him not Sather but perhaps you are right. I thought he bought out Girardi to sign Brendan Smith. His 2017 offseason led to the cap problems this year. Lmao claiming he inherited Smith and Shatty’s contracts.