Value of: Jonathan Toews for CGY

[Johnny Hoxville]

I know this, it sounds like there is a deal to be made. Oh baby.

 

[Double Dion]

I know this, it sounds like there is a deal to be made. Oh baby.

I'd do Monahan with one of Lucic or Ryan. Preferably Ryan actually because Lucic is a bad cap hit but he does fill a need. I would be fine either way though. I don't want any of Valimaki, Pelletier, Zary or 1st rounders in the deal though.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I'd do Monahan with one of Lucic or Ryan. Preferably Ryan actually because Lucic is a bad cap hit but he does fill a need. I would be fine either way though. I don't want any of Valimaki, Pelletier, Zary or 1st rounders in the deal though.

How much retention would it take up to $3.5M for you to change your mind?

 

[Double Dion]

How much retention would it take up to $3.5M for you to change your mind?

It would depend on the player. For Valimaki there isn't enough retention possible. For a lottery protected 1st of Pelletier I'd consider it. I don't know enough on Zary yet to project what he'll be despite numerous live viewings. If his skating improves he could be a very good player. If it doesn't he'll be a 2nd/3rd line tweener center.

My opinion is different from a lot of our posters here. I think we'd really have to catch some bounces to win a cup. I don't think our team is good enough even with Toews coming in for Monahan. So giving up key futures is a really tough pill to swallow. I'd rebuild, but with the cap crunch the returns are so terrible that I'm not sure what you do with this roster.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

How much retention would it take up to $3.5M for you to change your mind?

3.5 retention, I do our 1st with Monahan and Lucic. I don’t think the Flames have any interest in dealing Valimaki. Little interest in moving Pelletier and I think they really like Zary.

 

[Sparky93]

Toews from 5 years ago yes. Toews from today is no longer an elite defensive centerman. He's still pretty good. His numbers for reference are slightly worse defensively than Derek Ryan and no where close to Backlund. If we paid the 1st to dump Lucic we're paying to dump that cap already so your logic is pretty flawed. Normally you're a well thought out poster.

On the "Do you even watch him." That's the most tired thing on these boards. Every person who has a 10 year post track record here has watched Toews play. I'm concerned with what he is right now. Right now Backlund is being paid as a 2nd line center and is a 2nd line center. Toews is being paid as a franchise top 5 forward in the league and isn't anymore. He's still a decent 1st line 2 way center, but he'll also be 33 next year.

No question he was unreal in the playoffs this year, but that's a pretty small sample size.

 

[Sparky93]

Teows is only a year older than Backlund and Literally twice the player, its not even debatable. A deal to balance cap, while making a huge upgrade, is exactly what this team needs.

The most tired thing on this board is actually fancy stat darlings, that regurgitate then as gospel, instead of using them as a tool, to assist in assessments based on actually watching hockey.

 

[qwerty]

Teows is only a year older than Backlund and Literally twice the player, its not even debatable. A deal to balance cap, while making a huge upgrade, is exactly what this team needs.

The most tired thing on this board is actually fancy stat darlings, that regurgitate then as gospel, instead of using them as a tool, to assist in assessments based on actually watching hockey.

Literally twice the player? Literally?

They're both strong all-round players and very difficult to play against. While Toews is the superior offensive player and has won everything, Backlund is exceptionally underrated. Guy is tasked to shut down all the top line players, kill penalties and still produce at a second line clip without PP1 time. In terms of even strength, I don't think he's as far off from Toews as you think.

 

[Sparky93]

Literally twice the player? Literally?

They're both strong all-round players and very difficult to play against. While Toews is the superior offensive player and has won everything, Backlund is exceptionally underrated. Guy is tasked to shut down all the top line players, kill penalties and still produce at a second line clip without PP1 time. In terms of even strength, I don't think he's as far off from Toews as you think.

Yes, I would say, yes literally. Hes a guy that does everything Backlund does better and adds an extra 15-20 points a season. Completely different approaches to defense but a passive approach isn't always effective, especially against larger, hard forechecking forwards. Teows leadership abilities, preparation and hard ass, unwavering approach to the game is something this team soarly needs.

You tack on the accolades and the league wide respect, its really not much of a debate.

 

[Double Dion]

Teows is only a year older than Backlund and Literally twice the player, its not even debatable. A deal to balance cap, while making a huge upgrade, is exactly what this team needs.

The most tired thing on this board is actually fancy stat darlings, that regurgitate then as gospel, instead of using them as a tool, to assist in assessments based on actually watching hockey.

I watch every game they play. Literally every single one. It's not just fancy stats people. Backlund plays McDavid to a draw when he's out there with him. That has value even if you don't see it. NHL teams all deploy departments full of advanced stats people, so they put some weight on it even if you don't. Toews is not twice the player Backlund is right now. He had 2 more goals this season and was significantly behind him in the 200 foot game despite playing easier minutes.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I watch every game they play. Literally every single one. It's not just fancy stats people. Backlund plays McDavid to a draw when he's out there with him. That has value even if you don't see it. NHL teams all deploy departments full of advanced stats people, so they put some weight on it even if you don't. Toews is not twice the player Backlund is right now. He had 2 more goals this season and was significantly behind him in the 200 foot game despite playing easier minutes.

You should go watch he Chicago Edmonton series again. Toews does exactly the same thing. If Backlund was as good as Toews then Flames would have won a cup already because Chicago did it with Brad Richards centering the other top 6 line who was not nearly as good as Monahan is right now at age 36. I don't really understand why you keep bringing up the 2 goals difference thing, that is such a clear nitpick, especially when you consider Backlund had like 10 of those 16 goals in the last 13 games . Toews is a playmaker not a goal scorer. He had a career high in scoring last year with 35 but besides that he averages 20-25 a year. Toews had 42 assist this year, Backs had 29. Toews has a fantastic 200 foot game and finished ahead of Backlund in Selke voting this year too

 

[qwerty]

Yes, I would say, yes literally. Hes a guy that does everything Backlund does better and adds an extra 15-20 points a season. Completely different approaches to defense but a passive approach isn't always effective, especially against larger, hard forechecking forwards. Teows leadership abilities, preparation and hard ass, unwavering approach to the game is something this team soarly needs.

You tack on the accolades and the league wide respect, its really not much of a debate.

You know what else you can tack on, double the contract. If Toews and his buddies took a little less, they could actually build an actual team instead of a group of overpaid individuals. Kane and Keith are probably the only ones who provide full value for their cap hit.

For the record, I like Toews. He's as competitive as it gets, he's difficult to play against on both ends of the ice and has an iron will like Crosby. It's no surprise that he has won everything. But when you put everything on the table, as good as Toews is on the intangibles side, he's overpaid and his contract is a big reason why his team sits where they sit. He's not an elite goal scorer, playmaker or game breaker like Kane is and he's not one of the top players at his position anymore. Throw in his age and his value just isn't the same as it once was.

Personally though, I would trade for Toews with major retention, but I'd also keep Backlund and set up a Toews-Backlund 1-2 punch.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

Toews would bring nothing back in return because of his age and salary. Like I said, they would have to retain half and give up a 1st to dump him. This is easily one of the worst, top 10 proposals made on this board in a long time. Demanding a first and lots of top prospects for a guy that essentially has no trade value at this point.

 

[Sparky93]

You know what else you can tack on, double the contract. If Toews and his buddies took a little less, they could actually build an actual team instead of a group of overpaid individuals. Kane and Keith are probably the only ones who provide full value for their cap hit.

For the record, I like Toews. He's as competitive as it gets, he's difficult to play against on both ends of the ice and has an iron will like Crosby. It's no surprise that he has won everything. But when you put everything on the table, as good as Toews is on the intangibles side, he's overpaid and his contract is a big reason why his team sits where they sit. He's not an elite goal scorer, playmaker or game breaker like Kane is and he's not one of the top players at his position anymore. Throw in his age and his value just isn't the same as it once was.

Personally though, I would trade for Toews with major retention, but I'd also keep Backlund and set up a Toews-Backlund 1-2 punch.

I'm guessing you haven't paid much attention to Keith, the last few years. No GM would ever move Monahan over Backlund. Its a fantasy promoted by a few fans on the Flames board and frankly its embarrassing.

 

[Sparky93]

You should go watch he Chicago Edmonton series again. Toews does exactly the same thing. If Backlund was as good as Toews then Flames would have won a cup already because Chicago did it with Brad Richards centering the other top 6 line who was not nearly as good as Monahan is right now at age 36. I don't really understand why you keep bringing up the 2 goals difference thing, that is such a clear nitpick, especially when you consider Backlund had like 10 of those 16 goals in the last 13 games . Toews is a playmaker not a goal scorer. He had a career high in scoring last year with 35 but besides that he averages 20-25 a year. Toews had 42 assist this year, Backs had 29. Toews has a fantastic 200 foot game and finished ahead of Backlund in Selke voting this year too

Not to mention the Selke, Conn Smythe and Mark Messier leadership awards, that he already has.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

I'd love to have Captain Serious on our team too, for that exact reason. We need more of that smarten the f*** up leadership. I also agree with others that I'd hate to give up Backlund due to what he brings, but anyone thinking that Toews isn't an upgrade there is out to lunch. Problem is the contract is a big negative and that's the only hesitation.

I think Monahan & Lucic is the likely main piece that would be involved, and another piece that would be hard to give up....I'd rather give up Pellt/Zary before Valamaki though.

 

[Double Dion]

I'm guessing you haven't paid much attention to Keith, the last few years. No GM would ever move Monahan over Backlund. Its a fantasy promoted by a few fans on the Flames board and frankly its embarrassing.

Lol. I can't figure out if you're just trolling or serious. If you're serious I am blown away by your lack of understanding of the game. Do you think Seguin is better than Barkov too?

 

[Double Dion]

I'd love to have Captain Serious on our team too, for that exact reason. We need more of that smarten the f*** up leadership. I also agree with others that I'd hate to give up Backlund due to what he brings, but anyone thinking that Toews isn't an upgrade there is out to lunch. Problem is the contract is a big negative and that's the only hesitation.

I think Monahan & Lucic is the likely main piece that would be involved, and another piece that would be hard to give up....I'd rather give up Pellt/Zary before Valamaki though.

Toews is an upgrade for sure. But is he worth double the cap hit? That's where I say he isn't. So there would have to be one of Ryan and retention or Lucic going back.

 

[Flameshomer]

Well, not that we would even be able to land Toews, but I would prefer Ryan + Retention to Lucic just to keep what Lucic brings in the playoffs. If we're making a big move to land Toews then the goal is to make a lot of noise in the playoffs, and Lucic in the bottom 6 adds to that.

Here would be my proposal for Toews: Ryan+Hanifin+Pelletier+1st 2021 for Toews at 3.5 retained. The roster we're left with is: (-500k in cap because I did a 4mil retention here):

Ryan for cap, Hanifin+Pelletier as value for Toews, 1st for retention. We have ~1.1mil left over to sign a 6th RD, or call up Mackey.

 

[Sparky93]

Lol. I can't figure out if you're just trolling or serious. If you're serious I am blown away by your lack of understanding of the game. Do you think Seguin is better than Barkov too?

Fanboy fantasies have zero relevance to the reality of the game.
Anyone that would keep a 32 year old Backlund over Monahan obviously doesn't get it.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Mangi-Teows-Tkachuk
That looks like a contending top 6 to me.

 

[Double Dion]

Fanboy fantasies have zero relevance to the reality of the game.
Anyone that would keep a 32 year old Backlund over Monahan obviously doesn't get it.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Mangi-Teows-Tkachuk
That looks like a contending top 6 to me.

Lol. Not much point in posting with someone who thinks Monahan is better than Toews and Backlund.

 

[OmazingGrace]

2005 Jarome Iginal.

 

[qwerty]

I'm guessing you haven't paid much attention to Keith, the last few years. No GM would ever move Monahan over Backlund. Its a fantasy promoted by a few fans on the Flames board and frankly its embarrassing.

Considering that the Flames’ coach Geoff Ward who was just recently extended, played Backlund as the #1 center in the playoffs, I would suggest it’s not that crazy at all. Backlund also plays in all situations and against the opposition’s top lines. Not sure why you’d trade that over what Monahan does which he didn’t even do too well this season.

Lastly, Monahan’s name has come up a lot in trade rumors recently whereas I haven’t heard Backlund’s name once and where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Let's not get carried away here with the Backlund hype machine here.... He outpeformed Monahan for 20 games down the stretch where he got incredibly hot playing with the team's leading scorer. How quick some forget just how bad he was to start the season..

Backlund had 6 goals his first 52 games this season playing over 18 minutes a night.. He was on a 35 point pace.

Back to the thread at hand though.. I don't get the appeal to add Toews. Adding the required pieces to include a Lucic, or getting the Hawks to retain the needed salary will make the deal completely lopsided. I don't see a viable trade here.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Let's not get carried away here with the Backlund hype machine here.... He outpeformed Monahan for 20 games down the stretch where he got incredibly hot playing with the team's leading scorer. How quick some forget just how bad he was to start the season..

Backlund had 6 goals his first 52 games this season playing over 18 minutes a night.. He was on a 35 point pace.

Back to the thread at hand though.. I don't get the appeal to add Toews. Adding the required pieces to include a Lucic, or getting the Hawks to retain the needed salary will make the deal completely lopsided. I don't see a viable trade here.

If you may recall, once Ward became coach he moved Backlund to Monahan and Gaudreau's right wing, a position he's literally never played before, and left him there for like 20 or 30 games. And the second he wised up and moved Backlund back to center (at Backlund's request of course), he took off.

Fanboy fantasies have zero relevance to the reality of the game.
Anyone that would keep a 32 year old Backlund over Monahan obviously doesn't get it.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Mangi-Teows-Tkachuk
That looks like a contending top 6 to me.

Actually, the only fanboy fantasy is the notion that Gaudreau and Monahan are magically going to return to form playing together. That line combo is STALE and it's absurd that folks think both have to be played together forever and always. Literally the Sedin TWINS spent time on separate lines when things weren't working but for Flames fans, it's somehow impossible to even begin to consider separating Gaudreau and Monahan. Perhaps because somewhere deep down, even you realize how useless Monahan would be if Gaudreau wasn't there to prop him up.

Anyone that thinks Monahan as the top line center will lead the team to the cup obviously doesn't get it.