Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin - Guy Laflamme edition

[Habs Halifax]

Not only giveaway have nothing to do with what you said earlier but now you're just grasping at straws with the apple-to-orange comparison.

This is a pretty silly argument to make when you already have Domi getting way more rope than Drouin from the fans base and now you are inferring that a ELITE player like Gaudreau would get just as much rope as Jo McFloat... Please.

Giveaways are part of being soft. It has a lot to do with what I said from the get go when Gaudreau was mentioned.

 

[BLONG7]

Are you joking? He showed hustle, lots of hustle on that play. Look, I'm the biggest Drouin detractor in this forum. I didn't want him from day one and I'm still of that opinion but there's no way I'm going to criticize him for that play. I'm a big Domi fan and I would say Max dogged it on that play and Drouin didn't quit. Sorry, if you want your criticism of this player to be taken seriously you need to be fair. Drouin was deep in the offensive zone and Domi was at the blueline. Drouin skated his ass off to catch up. The only thing I would fault him on that play is his decision to stay in the middle of the ice. He should have gone straight for Foligno but that's easy for me to say sitting on my couch.

I had no problem with Drouin's play last night.

Guess we will agree to disagree on this one!!

 

[OnTheRun]

Giveaways are part of being soft. It has a lot to do with what I said from the get go when Gaudreau was mentioned.

Seriously? What the actual f***?

 

[Habs Halifax]

His stats are only hiding his major flaw, which is defensive play. Your line mates should not dictate on your man coverage. You either skate your butt off coming back or you coast.

He has flaws no doubt about it but he has shown ability to improve and work at his game. He is a much better player today than he was last year or to start the year this year. He is a piece I have as a keeper but we need Kotkaniemi to turn into a top 2C and Poehling to also be a top 2C. Drouin needs to play with a center who can fit his skills and provide strength. Radulov would of been a great winger for Drouin to play with IMO.

 

[Ozmodiar]

I wonder how the Habs fan base would feel with Gaudreau playing with Domi and giving the puck away 86 times.

Do you also wonder how they'd feel with Brent Burns and his 86 turnovers?

Do you feel they'd react negatively to Gaudreau, turnover stats and all? Same for Marchand and Draisaitl, if they were here?

Do you think the Habs fan base would rather have Lehkonen and his positive turnover stats over Gaudreau and his minus turnover stats?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Seriously? What the actual ****?

You don't think Giveaways are not caused by being soft? Seriously?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Seriously? What the actual ****?

 

[4thlineduster]

Gaudreau was a rookie at age 21. Drouin was a rookie at age 19. We should be comparing them at the same age points and looking at the circumstance of the talent around them in each season.

- Gaudreau had 64 pts when he was 21
- Drouin had 53 pts when he was 21 (Still with Tampa)

Drouin was traded to the Habs to be a center in a mess of a season at age 22. His development as a winger was derailed due to him trying to play center on a team with not much talent. Drouin is now having a much better offensive year and is on pace for his best season yet. He is going to get better. Will he catch Gaudreau? I doubt it. But that's not the point.

Disregard.....got my years mixed up

 

[Ozmodiar]

You don't think Giveaways are not caused by being soft? Seriously?

Tell that to Jamie Benn or Ryan Getzlaf.

 

[OnTheRun]

You don't think Giveaways are not caused by being soft? Seriously?

I'll stay nice and just say you are pretty much alone on that one... Seriously.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you also wonder how they'd feel with Brent Burns and his 86 turnovers?

Do you feel they'd react negatively to Gaudreau, turnover stats and all? Same for Marchand and Draisaitl, if they were here?

Do you think the Habs fan base would rather have Lehkonen and his positive turnover stats over Gaudreau and his minus turnover stats?

Giveaways/Takeaways should be compared equally between Defenseman and Forwards separately.

Yeah, I think our fan base would not have a problem at all throwing any player under the bus for a few bad games or if they play a soft style game that don't result in wins. I'm pretty sure Gaudreau would struggle on our team like Drouin is. But you will assume Gaudreau gets the same points as Drouin. That's not what I am saying. I'm saying Gaudreau soft style game results in frustration cause of who is forced to play with. Gaudreau would struggle on our PP just like Drouin. Gaudreau would be trying things to be creative and create offensive just like Drouin. The biggest issue is we have a overall soft top 9. We play with speed and work very hard but Armia is the only guy who can win the war. Kotkaniemi needs to fill in and we don't have Mohahan or Toews type centers.

Who is my target between Panarin or Stone? Stone hands down! He fits our team needs much more.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'll stay nice and just say you are pretty much alone on that one... Seriously.

I was pretty much alone when I predicted the Habs would fight for a playoff spot and I got the same reaction you are giving me right now. I really don't care about popularity contests. If this makes you feel better, all the power to you.

 

[Kriss E]

I'll stay nice and just say you are pretty much alone on that one... Seriously.

I think her point is..if you're soft..you're more likely to give up the puck than accept contact and battle it out.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Tell that to Jamie Benn or Ryan Getzlaf.

Different reasons why Turnovers are causes with different styles of games. Gaudreau turns it over cause he is soft but Benn and Getzlaf turn it over cause their skating is average at best and they are smothered by better skaters. Got any more examples I can help you with?

At the end of the day, Drouin's factual stats don't show he is any worse than Gaudreau in the styles they play when it comes to production other than points. It's Montreal, we tend to jump on players back when they are not trending well and call them Hero's when they are producing.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

He's been in the league 5 years now and he's playing the same way. What more evidence is needed? This is who he is, it's how he plays. He's an on and off type of player and when he's off, it costs dearly. This type of roller coaster ride is not what we should be getting from an elite talent.

You can't have one of your best players playing a high risk game and hope it will work out. If someone else believes he can be changed, let them do it. It won't work here. He's never once taken his game to the next level when facing his former team -- apparently there is no motivation in that. Just talks the talk and it's anyone's guess what you'll get.

I hate the whole guessing game and not knowing what we're going to get. Don't like our chances playing the lottery.

This guy's lack of awareness/ brain cramps/ inattention/ lack of hustle/ call it what you will -- it's been costing opposition goals and that shifts the momentum in a game. Plus, all those dangles he does that all too often end up broken up by a D taking the puck away from him, pond hockey doesn't work. Sure, there will be a highlight reel here and there but you want the guy to be more consistent and not a defensive blackhole. How many times has he done this now?

What's his excuse this year? He doesn't have center duties anymore. He has a coach that gives him plenty of ice time and who doesn't penalize his major blunders. What more does he need?

Time is ripe for a trade. I hope I'm wrong but I just can't see how you turn this player into something he can't seem to incorporate in his game. It doesn't matter who calls him out. AC did, fans do regularly on Twitter and other social media, even his coach is naming him in post-game pressers.

At some point, we've got to stop dreaming. Are we going to forget all of this the minute he puts together one or two games where he dominates? Are we going to start believing that he's finally understood, that he won't go back to becoming a risky player in his own zone?

We have a gaping hole at first pairing LHD and yet we're tolerating this top 6 winger who can't be consistent if his life depended on it. It's pretty clear to me what Bergevin needs to do.

You know despite all that, and y'know me when it comes to Drouin, im far from his biggest fan, but imo there's still hope.

Leopard spots an'all, sure it's the expected and predictable outcome, it's the one I feel is most likely, yet we should never underestimate the impact of certain life events that can change you in very dramatic ways, even way past the age people expect others and themselves to not being able to change anymore. It's still very well a possibility. He could still have an epiphany of some sorts where life kicks him in the nads so hard, that he finally gains maturity and learns the pride of hard work!

But sitting comfortably with friends, watching Drouin play, his hair in the wind, mindlessly buzzing around the ice on many nights, it's really really really hard to see him go any other way. I see an entitled kid who has the demeanour of someone who has it all figured out, but who actually looks lost and way over his head because of the expectations.

Then I say to myself, y'know, poor kid, can't be easy having all this weight and expectations...

But then i say oh f*** it, he can go wipe his princely tears with his dolla bills for all I care.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Giveaways/Takeaways should be compared equally between Defenseman and Forwards separately.

I figured you'd say this, so i was sure to include 2 LW'ers for you, but you seemed to have glossed over that too.

But you will assume Gaudreau gets the same points as Drouin.

When, exactly, did i assume this?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I figured you'd say this, so i was sure to include 2 LW'ers for you, but you seemed to have glossed over that too.

Look again

 

[NotProkofievian]

Different reasons why Turnovers are causes with different styles of games. Gaudreau turns it over cause he is soft but Benn and Getzlaf turn it over cause their skating is average at best and they are smothered by better skaters. Got any more examples I can help you with?

At the end of the day, Drouin's factual stats don't show he is any worse than Gaudreau in the styles they play when it comes to production other than points. It's Montreal, we tend to jump on players back when they are not trending well and call them Hero's when they are producing.

Seriously, you are so off the rails you cannot even make it out of a single sentence without contradicting yourself.

Here's the thing, you yourself say that ''giveaways have all sorts of different causes.'' Why don't you go find a single example, I don't care from which year, where Gaudreau gave the puck away as egregiously and unforced as Drouin gave the puck to Jonathan Huberdeau yesterday. The number one cause of giveaways is having the puck a lot, which is why so many excellent players have lots of giveaways, ''soft'' or not. That doesn't make their giveaways as stupid and egregious as the errors we're talking about.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He's been in the league 5 years now and he's playing the same way. What more evidence is needed?.

Evidence to prove what? He will never improve? He has clearly improved with his time with the Habs so far! Are we going to pin him down as the player he is by looking at a 4 game loosing streak?

Age 21 (Tampa):
- 53 pts and 21 goals in 73 games
- 65 giveaways (0.89/game)
- (-13)

Age 22 (Habs):
- 46 pts and 13 goals in 77 games trying to play center for the first time
- 58 giveaways (0.75/game)
- (-28)

Age 23 (Habs):
- 46 pts and 17 goals in 60 games playing wing where he belongs. Prorates to 63 pts and 23 goals
- 38 giveaways (0.63/game)
- (-4)

Give the kid break. He is still in development and maturing/improving at a young age of 23 and playing on one of the youngest groups of forwards in the league.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Different reasons why Turnovers are causes. Gaudreau turns it over cause he is soft but Benn and Getzlaf turn it over cause their skating is average at best and they are smothered by better skaters. Got any more examples I can help you with?

Yes, please.

Ovechkin and Marchand -- two LW'ers who also turn the puck over a lot. They aren't soft. Their skating isn't average.

And while you're adding to the list of causes for giveaways, you might want to circle back to Gaudreau ... now that you've stepped back from your broad-stroke characterization of giveaways as being the result of being soft.
"Giveaways are not caused by being soft?"

 

[Habs Halifax]

Seriously, you are so off the rails you cannot even make it out of a single sentence without contradicting yourself.

Here's the thing, you yourself say that ''giveaways have all sorts of different causes.'' Why don't you go find a single example, I don't care from which year, where Gaudreau gave the puck away as egregiously and unforced as Drouin gave the puck to Jonathan Huberdeau yesterday. The number one cause of giveaways is having the puck a lot, which is why so many excellent players have lots of giveaways, ''soft'' or not. That doesn't make their giveaways as stupid and egregious as the errors we're talking about.

You are missing the point. Drouin is trying to do things to create offense when he should not be but is he doing this every game? NO! Is he not improving? NO! Pretending that Gaudreau don't turn it over in a key situation on our team is not something I will agree with cause we are looking at what he does on a much better top 6 mix with better centers on a different team.

The point here is Gaudreau drowns on our team like Drouin is. You can only have so many soft forwards and this is a problem we need to address if we want to win a cup. Drouin is just trying to do too much like Subban did when we need a goal. Same type of attack that people are quick to do in Montreal.

There are some who said trade Drouin. I say be careful with what you wish for. There are flaws to his game and some we have to live with and some he will improve on. Lets provide constructive criticism and avoid jumping on his back. The Oilers traded Hall for this very same reason.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Here's the thing, you yourself say that ''giveaways have all sorts of different causes.''

Yes, the causes for turnovers are starting to add up since this comment:

You don't think Giveaways are not caused by being soft? Seriously?

 

[G0bias]

 

[OnTheRun]

You are missing the point. Drouin is trying to do things to create offense when he should not be but is he doing this every game? NO! Is he not improving? NO! Pretending that Gaudreau don't turn it over in a key situation on our team is not something I will agree with cause we are looking at what he does on a much better top 6 mix with better centers on a different team.

The point here is Gaudreau drowns on our team like Drouin is. You can only have so many soft forwards and this is a problem we need to address if we want to win a cup. Drouin is just trying to do too much like Subban did when we need a goal. Same type of attack that people are quick to do in Montreal.

You can't tell peoples they are missing the point when you thoroughly failed to establish the point. The only thing you managed to do so far is to get a high-score at the most ridiculous argument ever made.

There are some who said trade Drouin. I say be careful with what you wish for. There are flaws to his game and some we have to live with and some he will improve on. Lets provide constructive criticism and avoid jumping on his back. The Oilers traded Hall for this very same reason.

So Hall was traded because of fans' wishes and lack of constructive criticisms from the fans?

Nope! But keep going, you're doing very good here...

 

[NotProkofievian]

You are missing the point. Drouin is trying to do things to create offense when he should not be but is he doing this every game? NO! Is he not improving? NO! Pretending that Gaudreau don't turn it over in a key situation on our team is not something I will agree with cause we are looking at what he does on a much better top 6 mix with better centers on a different team.

The point here is Gaudreau drowns on our team like Drouin is. You can only have so many soft forwards and this is a problem we need to address if we want to win a cup. Drouin is just trying to do too much like Subban did when we need a goal. Same type of attack that people are quick to do in Montreal.

There is no point to any of this. This is argument by assertion. It's your opinion that Gaudreau, a vastly superior player in the minds of everyone, including yourself, would ''drown'' on Montreal. Okay, that's f***ed up, and based on nothing, and contradictory to your own argument, but whatever. What any of this has to do with Drouin's stupid plays is a mystery to literally everyone reading the thread. We will never get the good plays for which Gaudreau is known and celebrated from Drouin. If you're not prepared to argue that Drouin would do as well as Gaudreau in Calgary, you must admit this much.

There are some who said trade Drouin. I say be careful with what you wish for. There are flaws to his game and some we have to live with and some he will improve on. Lets provide constructive criticism and avoid jumping on his back. The Oilers traded Hall for this very same reason.

*sigh* we could trade Drouin for Larsson and it wouldn't be as disastrous as it was for Edmonton. Would you like to take a guess why?

Spoiler

Hall >>> Drouin