Johnsson and Kapanen..

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,159
32,804
St. Paul, MN
I was listening to someone talk about molding Kapanen into the JVR replacement. The thinking was Kappy isn't the most creative player but has great hands and a willingness to go to the net. Won't get 30 goals like JVR but might be a decent fill in on the PP.

Babcock is going to have to work harder this year than he did last year because we are going to have a few rookies on the roster just like most modern teams. Back to I am not just a coach I am a teacher stuff.

Rookies this season.
Johnson
Kapanen
Grundstrom
Dermot
Altonen
Rosen/Bergman/Oz

That's a lot of rookies. Mind you 3 of them played a lot of NHL already the others will play limited minutes.

Though the Leafs made the playoffs in 16/17 after adding just as many rookie skaters. And guys like Johnsson are older and look like pretty much finished products (ie like Hyman and Brown were when they made the Meafsbin that season)

Don’t think it’ll be much of an issue
 
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Duffman955

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
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Matt Martin:
GP: 50, ATOI: 7:59, PPG: 0.24

Kapanen:
GP: 38, ATOI: 11:15, PPG: 0.236

Im not expecting any miracles. Kapanen needs to step up his game to beat out Matt Martin, forget JVR.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Matt Martin:
GP: 50, ATOI: 7:59, PPG: 0.24

Kapanen:
GP: 38, ATOI: 11:15, PPG: 0.236

Im not expecting any miracles. Kapanen needs to step up his game to beat out Matt Martin, forget JVR.

I guess you don't actually watch hockey. You just search for stats to cherry pick that can support your argument.
 

Duffman955

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Mar 4, 2010
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I guess you don't actually watch hockey. You just search for stats to cherry pick that can support your argument.

These are just facts. No bias. I cant manipulate those numbers. They are, what they are.

The facts are that Kapanen has not proven anything. I'm not expecting him to put up 20 goals next season. Let the kid work up at his own pace. I'm not putting unrealistic expectations on him.

Should he put up 20 goals or 40 points, I will be very happy. He has to work very hard to get there.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
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Matt Martin:
GP: 50, ATOI: 7:59, PPG: 0.24

Kapanen:
GP: 38, ATOI: 11:15, PPG: 0.236

Im not expecting any miracles. Kapanen needs to step up his game to beat out Matt Martin, forget JVR.

Don't look at one simple stat and say "those are facts". Tbats silly.
Cheechoo: 55 goals
Matthews: 40 goals

Matthews isnt and will never be as good as cheechoo, thats just a fact no bias.
....

In this argument:
Martin: 9.2%
Kappy: 4 9% (Lowest on team)

Oish% is something you must look at. Otherwise your opinions are going to look real silly when the oish% returns to the mean.

Not to mention possession #s, chances generated #s, etc. Not to mention just simply watching him play.
 

The Best Leafs Ever

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
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Replacing 36 goals in one roster spot is no easy feat.

On top of that, you are relying on 2 players with close to ZERO NHL experience.

I don’t expect him to replace JvR’s numbers because by numbers JvR is on almost every team’s top line, but he has flaws in his games too and is almost nonexistent in your own zone. I don’t mind if Johnsson scores about 20 less points but also gives up 20 less points to the opponents throughout the season. Not hard to do that given how steady he had looked in his own zone when he was with the Leafs.
 
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Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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These are just facts. No bias. I cant manipulate those numbers. They are, what they are.

The facts are that Kapanen has not proven anything. I'm not expecting him to put up 20 goals next season. Let the kid work up at his own pace. I'm not putting unrealistic expectations on him.

Should he put up 20 goals or 40 points, I will be very happy. He has to work very hard to get there.

Sure they are facts. But they are completely void of context. For instance, I can point out he scored 7 goals in 38 games while playing primarily with Plekanec and K0marov, two players who offered next to no offense during that period, whereas Martin got to play with Brown and Moore who weren't such offensive black holes. Context matters, since hockey is a team game. Its not golf. The only way Kapanen won't produce significantly better (than the 15 goal pace he produced this year) is if he is yet again saddled with players who are again offensive black holes. I bet you agreed that Seguin was a bust after his first year too.
 

MR4

Registered User
Oct 20, 2014
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These are just facts. No bias. I cant manipulate those numbers. They are, what they are.

The facts are that Kapanen has not proven anything. I'm not expecting him to put up 20 goals next season. Let the kid work up at his own pace. I'm not putting unrealistic expectations on him.

Should he put up 20 goals or 40 points, I will be very happy. He has to work very hard to get there.
These are the facts that show there will be a different situation next season:

5.3 OISH%
66.5% defensive zone starts
7 goals, 2 assists show his teammates weren't converting on shit all
Eye test is so obvious he absolute minimum clears 30 points
4th line minutes, TOI will be 150% of last year's
 
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Boutette

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Sep 28, 2017
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Don't look at one simple stat and say "those are facts". Tbats silly.
Cheechoo: 55 goals
Matthews: 40 goals

Matthews isnt and will never be as good as cheechoo, thats just a fact no bias.
....

In this argument:
Martin: 9.2%
Kappy: 4 9% (Lowest on team)

Oish% is something you must look at. Otherwise your opinions are going to look real silly when the oish% returns to the mean.

Not to mention possession #s, chances generated #s, etc. Not to mention just simply watching him play.

Exactly. Kapanen's line mates were total crap when it came to offense. His own sh% was .127. Just slightly less than JvR and Marleau. If he's on a line with players who aren't offensive black holes and has the opportunity to triple his shots-on-net, say the number of shots Bozak had on net (8th on the team), 20 goals should be easily within reach.
 
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Duffman955

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Mar 4, 2010
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Here is a small summary of my arguments since everyone wants their boy Kappy to pull some magic next season.

- Kapanen had similar or better linemates than Matt Martin.

- Kapanen had significantly more ice time than Matt Martin

- Kapanen produced a lower offensive output compared to Martin given more ice time and similar linemates.

- Therefore, Kapanen will require exponential improvement to replace a fraction of JVR's offense.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Here is a small summary of my arguments since everyone wants their boy Kappy to pull some magic next season.

- Kapanen had similar or better linemates than Matt Martin.

- Kapanen had significantly more ice time than Matt Martin

- Kapanen produced a lower offensive output compared to Martin given more ice time and similar linemates.

- Therefore, Kapanen will require exponential improvement to replace a fraction of JVR's offense.

This is entirely based on your opinion of the quality of his linemates. Those linemates production and play would strongly argue against your assessment. Both Plekanec and Komarov were awful towards the end of the season. Martin got most of his points when he was playing with Moore and Brown early in the season when both his linemates were playing there best, offensively speaking. Context. There was a reason Babcock replaced Martin with Kapanen. Wonder why?
 

Battle Lin

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Dec 18, 2015
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should both fill the 3rd or 4th lines nicely next season and hopefully be good on the pp, especially kapanen with that speed...hope both get around 30 points each
 

mapleleaf979

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Jan 14, 2012
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Toronto, Ontario
Grundstrom is right there too. Kid can play.

Johnnson-Nylander-Grundstrom would be my 3rd line to start the year. The 2 hard working wingers with excellent motors can possibly bring more of of Willy. But also that line has skill, playmaking, shooting, grit. etc.

Grundstrom is a type of player the Leafs dont have, some skill and some jam. Grundstrom is the only Leafs player, Babcock will remove Hyman off the #1 line for.

Kapanen does not have high IQ. He is not a Top 6 player in the NHL ever imo.
 

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
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Toronto
Johnnson-Nylander-Grundstrom would be my 3rd line. The 2 hard working wingers with excellent motors can possibly bring more of of Willy. But also that line has skill, playmaking, shooting, grit. etc.

Grundstrom is a type of player the Leafs dont have, some skill and some jam.

Kapanen does not have high IQ. He is not a Top 6 player in the NHL ever imo.
Kapanen even if he is low-iq (which I don't think he is), he should still always be an effective 3rd liner, just due to his speed. Similar to Grabner.

As for Grundstrom. I really like that kid, but he needs a bit more seasoning at the AHL level. We shouldn't rush him to the team.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Kapanen even if he is low-iq (which I don't think he is), he should still always be an effective 3rd liner, just due to his speed. Similar to Grabner.

As for Grundstrom. I really like that kid, but he needs a bit more seasoning at the AHL level. We shouldn't rush him to the team.

I agree with you re: Kapanen/Grabner comparison. I think the leafs have enough of the parts to put together a speed oriented 3rd line similar to Grabner's line on the Rangers, which was every bit as effective as what the Leafs had this year and a lot more defensively responsible overall (IE not relying on just one player to do all the def). He needs to be on a line where the players are at least half as fast as he is and capable of receiving a pass. So far that has not been the case.
 
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Duffman955

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Mar 4, 2010
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This is entirely based on your opinion of the quality of his linemates. Those linemates production and play would strongly argue against your assessment. Both Plekanec and Komarov were awful towards the end of the season. Martin got most of his points when he was playing with Moore and Brown early in the season when both his linemates were playing there best, offensively speaking. Context. There was a reason Babcock replaced Martin with Kapanen. Wonder why?

Martins most common linemates were Moore and Leivo. Kapanens most common linemates were Komarov and Moore. I don't know how you are seeing a tremendous difference in linemates.

Just the fact that Martin is comparable production to Kapanen should tell you all you need to know about how Kapanen played this season.
 

Rielly4

Registered User
Dec 12, 2012
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Martins most common linemates were Moore and Leivo. Kapanens most common linemates were Komarov and Moore. I don't know how you are seeing a tremendous difference in linemates.

Just the fact that Martin is comparable production to Kapanen should tell you all you need to know about how Kapanen played this season.
Leivo? Martin played all year with either Brown/Nylander/Marner. Kapanen has not gotten a chance to play with any offensively gifted players yet. Kapanen isnt nessecarily a guy who is gonna drive the offense but his skill and speed should allow him to be effective with skilled players. He can be especially effective if he can be a strong two way winger who wins battles on the forecheck. He definitely has the skill to set up teammates and finish off plays, he just isnt an offensive catalyst.
 

Boutette

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Sep 28, 2017
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Martins most common linemates were Moore and Leivo. Kapanens most common linemates were Komarov and Moore. I don't know how you are seeing a tremendous difference in linemates.

Just the fact that Martin is comparable production to Kapanen should tell you all you need to know about how Kapanen played this season.

First of all Leivo played all of 16 games this year. Martin played 50. There is no way Martin's most common linemate was Leivo or even his second. I am also aware that Moore scored a lot when paired with Brown early in the season, but his production kind of died about half way through. About the time that Kapanen was recalled, the dead weight of Komarov was moved to the forth line, and then Plekanec replaced Moore and the pair offered nothing in the way of offensive support to Kapanen who skated around everyone, but was entirely left to use his talents on his own. The broken down geezers he was saddled with weren't able to keep up with him. He did get a lot of attention from oppositions coaches, which made it easier for JvR and Bozak to do their thing because coaches put their more mobile defenders against Kapanen in an effort to contain him. I don't believe its a coincidence that it suddenly got easier for JvR and Bozak to score once Kapanen was promoted. Hockey is a team game, you start changing components, you start having a different team.

fact is, I use my eyes and ears. I don't just look at stats out of context because they don't show me what is going on on the ice when those stats are produced. Hockey isn't checkers. Players have different skills and prosper in different conditions. I guess you also thought that Grabner was garbage after his season with the Leafs. Yet he goes to NY and scores 52 goals in 135 games. How did that happen? He had linemates that provided the appropriate conditions for him to exploit his skillset effectively. So yeah, you saddle Kapanen with 2 broken down geezers who can't keep up with him and he's not going to produce to his potential. You put him with complimentary linemates and scoring in bunches is exactly what he will do. Which would you prefer?
 

mapleleaf979

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Jan 14, 2012
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Toronto, Ontario
Kapanen even if he is low-iq (which I don't think he is), he should still always be an effective 3rd liner, just due to his speed. Similar to Grabner.

As for Grundstrom. I really like that kid, but he needs a bit more seasoning at the AHL level. We shouldn't rush him to the team.

How often do u see Kapanen make a play that send a linemate in for a good chance? For me its very rare to see it from him. His speed creates things for him.

Secondly, Kapanen on several 2 on 1 breakaways with the puck has had the D man give him shot, which Kapanen does not want and Kappy still force a passed that was broken up. Bottom line in this situation Kapanen was outsmarted and made up his mind far too early to pass when a scoring chance was the best decision. If Kapanen had higher IQ, he be on the PP. Johnnson getting a call up and given PP time was telling for me, I dont think Kapanen has ever seen any PP time as a Leaf. Maybe Kapanen can sort these things out, he must be nervous somewhat too, he was excellent in the 2016-17 reg season and playoff and started the year with the Marlies for 17-18. I like Kapanen as a Leafs prospect.
 

Duffman955

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Mar 4, 2010
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First of all Leivo played all of 16 games this year. Martin played 50. There is no way Martin's most common linemate was Leivo or even his second. I am also aware that Moore scored a lot when paired with Brown early in the season, but his production kind of died about half way through. About the time that Kapanen was recalled, the dead weight of Komarov was moved to the forth line, and then Plekanec replaced Moore and the pair offered nothing in the way of offensive support to Kapanen who skated around everyone, but was entirely left to use his talents on his own. The broken down geezers he was saddled with weren't able to keep up with him. He did get a lot of attention from oppositions coaches, which made it easier for JvR and Bozak to do their thing because coaches put their more mobile defenders against Kapanen in an effort to contain him. I don't believe its a coincidence that it suddenly got easier for JvR and Bozak to score once Kapanen was promoted. Hockey is a team game, you start changing components, you start having a different team.

fact is, I use my eyes and ears. I don't just look at stats out of context because they don't show me what is going on on the ice when those stats are produced. Hockey isn't checkers. Players have different skills and prosper in different conditions. I guess you also thought that Grabner was garbage after his season with the Leafs. Yet he goes to NY and scores 52 goals in 135 games. How did that happen? He had linemates that provided the appropriate conditions for him to exploit his skillset effectively. So yeah, you saddle Kapanen with 2 broken down geezers who can't keep up with him and he's not going to produce to his potential. You put him with complimentary linemates and scoring in bunches is exactly what he will do. Which would you prefer?

You have 0 facts behind your arguments. Everything you say is baseless opinion. I got the linemates from a website that tracks ice time with linemates.

Leivo-moore-martin was Martin's most common lines. Plekanec and komarov were not kapanens most common linemates, however im not surprised seeing there abysmal numbers when playing with kapanen. Kapanen is braindead offensively, never knows when to shoot or pass. His production is low because he runs around the offensive zone like a headless chicken. He needed 7 breakaways in the playoffs to score 1 goal. He has potential but has a ton of work to do.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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Martin picked up 8 of his 12 points during those 100-120 minutes he got to play with an elite talent like Marner and Nylander on the fourth line. That's the sole thing that drove some of his offensive numbers that keep getting brought up, having elite talent as linemates against fourth lines. I'm pretty sure that if you paired Nylander and Kapanen against other teams fourth lines, they would run roughshod over them on a per minute-basis.

Kapanen in comparison has about 25 minutes with one of these guys, and all those minutes came when he was playing up the lineup.
 

LeafingTheWay

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May 31, 2014
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You have 0 facts behind your arguments. Everything you say is baseless opinion. I got the linemates from a website that tracks ice time with linemates.

Leivo-moore-martin was Martin's most common lines. Plekanec and komarov were not kapanens most common linemates, however im not surprised seeing there abysmal numbers when playing with kapanen. Kapanen is braindead offensively, never knows when to shoot or pass. His production is low because he runs around the offensive zone like a headless chicken. He needed 7 breakaways in the playoffs to score 1 goal. He has potential but has a ton of work to do.

Kapanen played
115 minutes with Komarov and Plekanec.
35 minutes with Johnsson and Plekanec.

Martin played
60 minutes with Leivo and Moore
46 minutes with Brown and Moore
42 minutes with Marner and Bozak

Okay so let me get this straight. You're arguing that Kapanen, who along with Komarov and Johnsson had team-worst oish%, has to prove more than Martin, who had puck-luck 9.2 oish% and easier usage?

I don't know how you're sitting there using stats to drive your 'narrative'.

You would think people would learn from the low oish% curse from when it hit Kadri and Nylander but nope. My final opinion on this: Kapanen had terrible puck luck with that team-low oish%, which will return to the norm next year like it always does. 22 goals 48 points is what I predict next year playing beside Johnsson/Marleau - Nylander hopefully.
 
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