Johnsson and Kapanen..

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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These 2 guys are exactly why you do not sign JVR. Both are young, cheap and very skilled. I always laugh at the "How will we replace JVR's 36 goals?" comments.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
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You cannot trade your UFAs when you are a lock for a playoff spot.

Last time I checked there was no written rule that prevented you from doing it. Just because it has rarely ever happened does not mean it should not be considered.

Bozak and JvR were not key parts of this team. The success of the Cup run did not hinge on what they did. We could have gone in there without them and the Leafs chances would have hardly been impacted. The Leafs winning or losing would have still been determined by whether or not Andersen, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Matthews, etc. showed up on a nightly basis, and in that series, 3 of the 5 I just mentioned were not good enough (Andersen, Marner and Matthews).

It's the same reason why we are not going to pay big money to bring them back.

However, as you are suggesting, optics plays a huge part into it. Unfortunate, but you have to please the customers right? Plus the whole "morale" thing in the locker room, but if you use those assets to pick up guys who can contribute now and in the future, they should not be complaining. They may be kids, but they are also professional athletes, and the whole point of making moves is to build a team to win it all. If they are half as smart as we expect them to be, they'd understand that and would be more than willing to follow the plan. Fans, on the other hand, typically are impatient and irrational when it comes to that sort of thing. If you think HF is bad when it comes to complaining, just imagine the real world. It makes HF posters look like the best of the best.
 
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Semantics

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Jan 3, 2007
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However, as you are suggesting, optics plays a huge part into it. Unfortunate, but you have to please the customers right? Plus the whole "morale" thing in the locker room, but if you use those assets to pick up guys who can contribute now and in the future, they should not be complaining. They may be kids, but they are also professional athletes, and the whole point of making moves is to build a team to win it all. If they are half as smart as we expect them to be, they'd understand that and would be more than willing to follow the plan. Fans, on the other hand, typically are impatient and irrational when it comes to that sort of thing. If you think HF is bad when it comes to complaining, just imagine the real world. It makes HF posters look like the best of the best.

I agree somewhat, but on the other hand the NHL is random enough that if you're the 6th best team there's always a chance you can win. All it takes is the goalie getting hot and luck with injuries. A young team like the Leafs with the players they had wasn't very likely to win, but Vegas wasn't likely to make it very far either if you just look at their team. Washington was supposed to choke as always. Before the playoffs start, there are always a bunch of reasons given why any team that hasn't had recent success will lose. Often they do win, and then they're remembered as a great team that had X and Y and was always a threat to win. You can't really be sure in March that Andersen and Matthews won't activate god mode and somehow pull them through.
 

2legit2quit

Registered User
Oct 27, 2017
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Last time I checked there was no written rule that prevented you from doing it. Just because it has rarely ever happened does not mean it should not be considered.

Bozak and JvR were not key parts of this team. The success of the Cup run did not hinge on what they did. We could have gone in there without them and the Leafs chances would have hardly been impacted. The Leafs winning or losing would have still been determined by whether or not Andersen, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Matthews, etc. showed up on a nightly basis, and in that series, 3 of the 5 I just mentioned were not good enough (Andersen, Marner and Matthews).

It's the same reason why we are not going to pay big money to bring them back.

However, as you are suggesting, optics plays a huge part into it. Unfortunate, but you have to please the customers right? Plus the whole "morale" thing in the locker room, but if you use those assets to pick up guys who can contribute now and in the future, they should not be complaining. They may be kids, but they are also professional athletes, and the whole point of making moves is to build a team to win it all. If they are half as smart as we expect them to be, they'd understand that and would be more than willing to follow the plan. Fans, on the other hand, typically are impatient and irrational when it comes to that sort of thing. If you think HF is bad when it comes to complaining, just imagine the real world. It makes HF posters look like the best of the best.


Leafs were a top 6 team in the NHL this year.
Bozak is an above average 3rd line C, JvR is an extremely-above-average 3rd line Winger, who scored 36 goals.
JVR Posted 3 goals in 7 games in the playoffs, he outperformed Matthews and Nylander in the playoffs. Albeit he wasn't amazing defensively, that's not his game, his game is offense, it's not the best game-plan BUT HEY! It helped Leafs place 6th in the NHL.

Do you really think the Leafs would trade JvR + Bozak (who helped the leafs place top 6 in the NHL) JUST Because some kids on HF-Boards thought that a draft pick was worth more than the leafs' chance of winning a cup?

Think about it, if you're a GM,
  • You're team places 6th in the NHL out of 30 teams
  • Their forward group is one of the best in the NHL (jvr/bozak help make it that)
  • Now since you are 6th in the NHL, you have a shot at the cup
  • WOuld you trade away a 36 goal scorer and your above average 3rd line C who have put you in the position at top 6 in the NHL?
The answer is NO WAY IN HELL!

I know that being an arm-chair GM takes very little effort and very little thought, but, please have more thought before you type up an essay. It'll save you the time + will save you the embarrassment of everyone else questioning your intelligence.
 

moon111

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
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JVR's goal scoring was .01 less goals per 60 then Matthews. Not only will Kaps or Johnsson not match this pace, nobody else on the Leafs will either.
Also a forgotten asset of JVR... he could pass the puck. What Matt Martin accomplished in a single game, Kaps hasn't accomplished in his career in that regard.
Could Kapanen or Johnsson replace Nylander's offensive output? Then why can they replace JVR's who's points/60 was higher?

Bozak has been a 2/3rd's of a Tavares his own career. Especially for an undrafted free-agent signing, that's nothing to be ashamed about. However, Leaf fans
have never forgiven him for not replacing Mats Sundin, despite him not breaking $1.5 million in salary until 2014. And I think it's very understated how well
he handled Kessel, for without Bozak, would of probably had gone cry-baby much sooner. And I also can't remember Bozak really for any huge issues in the
media either. He's been a complete gentleman. Johnsson scored below Bozak's pace, yielding 3 points in 9 games. But also consider they were scored against
Buffalo and Montreal. Game in, game out, what kind of results can you expect?

In the playoffs, they were two young exciting players that combined only managed to out-score one player who played all 7 games, an injured and checked Auston Matthews.
There's some hope that one or both of them could get into a Hyman-type role on a line that would bring up their numbers. There's potential for them to
coat-tail on someone else's performance. Who knows, maybe Babcock puts Matthews, Nylander, and Marner all on center and they all get a chance to
have a real offensive driver on their line?

Defensively, there's no comparison. Winning games, I'm all for the two youngsters. Goal-scoring wise, a good goal would be half of JVR's production combined.
 

bonjovi0308

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Jan 26, 2003
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Getting more pissed that we got nothing back for JVR and Bozak. Happy to see Lou go and Dubas taking over. If I were the GM last season, I would have traded JVR and Bozak during the offseason, and promoted both Kaspi and Johnsson to the Leafs lineup to get a full season to learn. At the end of the day, result is what all matters that Lou gambled by keeping JVR and Bozak and it failed miserably, no buts or ifs.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Also a forgotten asset of JVR... he could pass the puck. .

To bad JVR forgot he had that asset as well. Who knows what else he'll forget in the coming years. Luckily that would the a problem the Leafs have to deal with.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Last time I checked there was no written rule that prevented you from doing it. Just because it has rarely ever happened does not mean it should not be considered.

Bozak and JvR were not key parts of this team. The success of the Cup run did not hinge on what they did. We could have gone in there without them and the Leafs chances would have hardly been impacted. The Leafs winning or losing would have still been determined by whether or not Andersen, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Matthews, etc. showed up on a nightly basis, and in that series, 3 of the 5 I just mentioned were not good enough (Andersen, Marner and Matthews).

It's the same reason why we are not going to pay big money to bring them back.

However, as you are suggesting, optics plays a huge part into it. Unfortunate, but you have to please the customers right? Plus the whole "morale" thing in the locker room, but if you use those assets to pick up guys who can contribute now and in the future, they should not be complaining. They may be kids, but they are also professional athletes, and the whole point of making moves is to build a team to win it all. If they are half as smart as we expect them to be, they'd understand that and would be more than willing to follow the plan. Fans, on the other hand, typically are impatient and irrational when it comes to that sort of thing. If you think HF is bad when it comes to complaining, just imagine the real world. It makes HF posters look like the best of the best.

Name the last Stanley Cup wining team that traded their leading goal scorer at the trade deadline.
 
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Voodoo Child

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Jun 16, 2009
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I can appreciate not having traded Jvr and Bozak given our position, doesn't mean I didn't want to though.

I think Willy is ready to be a sheltered center next year and Johnny can ride shotgun with Auston, and so Bozak has become a redundancy. He's been a loyal soldier but we can't pay him what he will want. I had mentioned before that he has a young family and he won't take a cent less than what he makes now.

Jvr will definitely be missed on the power play but I think given Matthews and Nylander had off years on the PP (believe I heard somewhere if 17-18 Willy had 16-17 Willy's PP production, he has 74 points or something?) I think we have the ponies to not take too big a hit. Matthews scores enough at ES that I don't really care if he isn't a power play weapon, but he has the tools to be a very great one.

It depends who they play with but I believe they both have 10-15-25 baseline level production and can replace the offense.

Even if they don't, internal improvement from Matthews (80+ points), Mitch (80+ points) and Willy (70+ points) should shore up those numbers that go out the door with Bozak and Jvr.

I think Kappy and Johnny can both be 40 point players who play in all situations, opposed to 60 point Jvr who is a specialist and 45 point Bozak who is often overmatched.
 

MR4

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Oct 20, 2014
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Name the last Stanley Cup wining team that traded their leading goal scorer at the trade deadline.
You say that like we were ever a top choice on odds for winning the Cup this year.

At trade deadline we knew we had to go through TBL, BOS, PIT/WSH, WPG/NSH, and in the offseason we knew the same except for thinking OTT would be in BOS' spot

It was obvious we weren't going to win without a miracle, which can happen with it without UFAs, as it was obvious we had the worst path possible and were gonna be underdogs in all series. Which makes the obvious move selling like STL sold off Shattenkirk
 
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67Cup

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Sep 16, 2005
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As it happens, the Leafs had the same number of points, 105, and the same win loss record, as the Caps. The Leafs had a significantly better differential in goals for and against but had a more difficult path through the playoffs. Clearly they were not favourites for the Cup, but they were in with a chance. Weakening the team significantly at the trade deadline was not a realistic option.
 

bonjovi0308

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Jan 26, 2003
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Check out the Raptors. Regular season performance means shix when its playoff that matters. The Leafs fans have been suffering for a long time that they will just take any success as comfort.
 

Nineteen67

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Name the last Stanley Cup wining team that traded their leading goal scorer at the trade deadline.


I wouldn’t have traded them either unless someone blew them out of the water. In all likelihood what they were offered they already had in the minors.

Realistically, the Leafs FO was hoping for six playoff games not three.
 

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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6,178
Last time I checked there was no written rule that prevented you from doing it. Just because it has rarely ever happened does not mean it should not be considered.

Bozak and JvR were not key parts of this team. The success of the Cup run did not hinge on what they did. We could have gone in there without them and the Leafs chances would have hardly been impacted. The Leafs winning or losing would have still been determined by whether or not Andersen, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Matthews, etc. showed up on a nightly basis, and in that series, 3 of the 5 I just mentioned were not good enough (Andersen, Marner and Matthews).

It's the same reason why we are not going to pay big money to bring them back.

However, as you are suggesting, optics plays a huge part into it. Unfortunate, but you have to please the customers right? Plus the whole "morale" thing in the locker room, but if you use those assets to pick up guys who can contribute now and in the future, they should not be complaining. They may be kids, but they are also professional athletes, and the whole point of making moves is to build a team to win it all. If they are half as smart as we expect them to be, they'd understand that and would be more than willing to follow the plan. Fans, on the other hand, typically are impatient and irrational when it comes to that sort of thing. If you think HF is bad when it comes to complaining, just imagine the real world. It makes HF posters look like the best of the best.
Notice no other team headed to the playoffs trades their UFAs? It would be sending a terrible message to the team.
 

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
18,890
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Do they really need to replace JVR’s goals? If they score 20 less goals next year while being better defensively will they miss the playoffs?
I agree. I do think aside from that they will with these 2 though. The Leafs are the most stack organization on the wing.
 

moon111

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
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Once again, drop some names of teams that could of and would of dealt for JVR and Bozak? Let's not make up trades that would of never of happened.

There is no comparison between two UFA forwards with modified no-trade clauses like JVR and Bozak, and a right-handed defenseman with a year left on his contract.
In the last two seasons, JVR was the 4th highest scorer in the regular season, 7th in the playoffs.
In that time span, Bozak was the 6th highest scorer in the regular season, 3rd highest in the playoffs.
After all the training, practices, etc., there was no way the Leafs were throwing in the towel. Not for the compensation they would of received.

After a cool down in limited ice-time this season, Josh Leivo is still the 5th highest points-getter in the last two season. He's not as defensively good as Johnsson or
Kaps, but if the Leafs are now looking for offense, he might get the nod over them. It will all be based on how the players can work with others. Spectacular individual
performances are perfect for a solo rush counter-strike on 4th lines and don't necessarily translate to working with line-mates.
 

Leafsman

I guess $11M doesn't buy you what it use to
May 22, 2008
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Also a forgotten asset of JVR... he could pass the puck. What Matt Martin accomplished in a single game, Kaps hasn't accomplished in his career in that regard.
Could pass the puck?? He had 18 assists.

True, the guy had 36 goals but he also finished with 54 points and 5th on the team in points.

A smart team will offer JVR 54 point money, some dumbass out there will offer him 36 goal money. Let the dumbass have him. Not enough value for the money - Bozak is way better value.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 18, 2015
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Just for long term cap reasons JVR can't be resigned by the Leafs. And really the Leafs are hoping for better value in other players.
Time for Johnson, Kapanen, Aaltonen and Dermot, maybe Sparks to prove themselves as NHLers. All good teams will pay big for their stars, but need that solid of base of cheaper but good NHLer.
IMO, it's a still a important year of development for the Leafs as many young Leafs/Marlies are going to be counted upon to solid NHLers. If they can be NHLer s coupled with Liljegren, in a year or two, then the Leafs have a real shot of being true contenders.
 
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frog

Registered User
Apr 8, 2014
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You say that like we were ever a top choice on odds for winning the Cup this year.

At trade deadline we knew we had to go through TBL, BOS, PIT/WSH, WPG/NSH, and in the offseason we knew the same except for thinking OTT would be in BOS' spot

It was obvious we weren't going to win without a miracle, which can happen with it without UFAs, as it was obvious we had the worst path possible and were gonna be underdogs in all series. Which makes the obvious move selling like STL sold off Shattenkirk
Trading JVR and Bozak is just setting yourself up for failure and giving an excuse for people to fire you. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in real life unless you won the stanley cup the entire NHL would say that trade was a mistake and blame you for the reason why the team lost. If you were GM and traded JVR and bozak before the playoffs and they still got knocked out of the first round you would be run out of town and eaten alive the second the team got knocked out...

They could have traded them last summer.. not the trade deadline weeks before the playoffs
 

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