John Vanbiesbrouck is the new director of hockey ops for USA Hockey

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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In order to "slip up" and say something racist (several times, I might add), you have to first have those racist thoughts. If you don't see a black person as a n*****, but merely as another person, you will never call them a n*****.

Ones language betrays their thoughts.

Vansbiesbrouck may well have reformed his dehumanizing way of thinking about black people, but we have no way of knowing. If I was a black American athlete, I would constantly be wondering what he really thinks of me. And that's not a fun way to feel.

You know what Vanbiesbrouck said when he was asked about this recently? He said "I have no prejudices in me."

Instead of saying "hey I have these feelings but I am working on being a better person," he just denies being prejudiced. I can't honestly say that about myself, but ol' Johnny V has apparently conquered prejudice.

Completely full of it.
 

Pieck

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here is what I realize, I simply don't give a ****...simple as that...crazy I know, that some people can move forward and beyond things when a person has already paid for whatever they did or were accused of...all the social justice warriors out there just keep pilling on, so sick of these people as well...

The only thing I am concerned about is USA Hockey, and the player development moving forward... Hopefully he breaks up the good ol' boy network and the "favoritism" that was pretty apparent. Anything else than that, save your typing or your breath, I don't care anymore.
What if he plays a part in picking a white player to play on your national team instead of a black player, and the black player is better?
 

dechire

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It says a lot about his hockey evaluating abilities that he looked at a kid that would go on to play 1000 NHL games and just saw him by his skin color. Who the f*** wants that guy in charge of anything involving hockey again ?
 

Claypool

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What if he plays a part in picking a white player to play on your national team instead of a black player, and the black player is better?

If USA Hockey determined he made a roster selection based on a player's skin color he would be fired. What's your point?
 

Jacksonbobson

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I don't feel like this one act defines him and he perhaps has even changed the way he previously thought and feels quite bad about what happened.

With that said, I feel like its completely inappropriate to give this man power like this again. I'd be fine with him as an analyst or even selling products for hockey but this is a bit of a strange hire. It puts the black players in an awkward situation and it will always be there.
 

Xokkeu

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15 years or not USA hockey is now making the national news with this and not for good reasons. So what’s the pro reason for hiring the guy?
 

Rabid Ranger

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I don't feel like this one act defines him and he perhaps has even changed the way he previously thought and feels quite bad about what happened.

With that said, I feel like its completely inappropriate to give this man power like this again. I'd be fine with him as an analyst or even selling products for hockey but this is a bit of a strange hire. It puts the black players in an awkward situation and it will always be there.

.....especially since it keeps getting brought up after all these years and will likely be a part of his obituary.
 
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Mickey the mouse

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15 years or not USA hockey is now making the national news with this and not for good reasons. So what’s the pro reason for hiring the guy?
Maybe his ability to evaluate players ? He's been involved with USA Hockey for years and nothing was ever said before.

The man admittedly made a mistake, payed the price and moved on.

Can't we ?
 

Xokkeu

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Maybe his ability to evaluate players ? He's been involved with USA Hockey for years and nothing was ever said before.

The man admittedly made a mistake, payed the price and moved on.

Can't we ?

Well he’d best be a genius at evaluating players because of the message this sends. Whether we like it or not hockey has an image of being a closed off wealthy white sport. Many black Americans do not feel welcome in it and feel there’s no place for them in it. Whatever most hockey fans perspective on that it is a widespread belief. To now have your standard bearer, the face of the organization, the public image of USA hockey have this record .... it means he better be the Wayne Gretzky of player evaluations to overcome it.
 

Mickey the mouse

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Well he’d best be a genius at evaluating players because of the message this sends. Whether we like it or not hockey has an image of being a closed off wealthy white sport. Many black Americans do not feel welcome in it and feel there’s no place for them in it. Whatever most hockey fans perspective on that it is a widespread belief. To now have your standard bearer, the face of the organization, the public image of USA hockey have this record .... it means he better be the Wayne Gretzky of player evaluations to overcome it.
He's in charge of picking Mens, womens and Sled International teams correct ?

The Pres, regional directors and ADM directors are the faces of USA hockey and the faces everyone sees.

Nobody outside the hockey world ( and mean HIGH end hockey world ) would have a clue who JJ, God rest his soul, was or what his job was.

I'm not saying what JV did 15+ yrs ago was right but to my knowledge he has done almost everything he could to try to make better decisions / choices since that incident
 

Xokkeu

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He's in charge of picking Mens, womens and Sled International teams correct ?

The Pres, regional directors and ADM directors are the faces of USA hockey and the faces everyone sees.

Nobody outside the hockey world ( and mean HIGH end hockey world ) would have a clue who JJ, God rest his soul, was or what his job was.

I'm not saying what JV did 15+ yrs ago was right but to my knowledge he has done almost everything he could to try to make better decisions / choices since that incident

I agree it’s not like he’s going to be well known. That only should be a concern that it’s made national news. I just don’t like what kind of message it says for no good reason.
 

AmericanDream

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What if he plays a part in picking a white player to play on your national team instead of a black player, and the black player is better?
I think it is the opposite now, if it is close, and you are a brother, you know Beezer is going to pick you to avoid any issues lol...

But seriously, no I dont think there will be any issues with this at all, players have been screwed over from everywhere the past decade...it would just be par for the course for people to bitch like myself when 1 or 2 of my favs should have made the team..
 
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AmericanDream

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I agree it’s not like he’s going to be well known. That only should be a concern that it’s made national news. I just don’t like what kind of message it says for no good reason.
yeah, it is a shame this stuff has to happen and I understand some of it, but I also understand that others out there think they are righteous or mighty and have to point the finger down on anyone who has made a mistake. no one here is condoning it, it was just a long time ago, the man paid his price and is trying to move forward in his life - I have seen others say and do far more worse and associate with far worse people only to never get attacked or have to defend themselves a decade later..just so weird sometimes.

USA Hockey obviously knew they would hear some shit on this, and they have to be prepared for it and fully believe in this man as being able to lead them into the future. I question him as the choice overall because of his track record in hockey, but I wish the man the best, I hope he gives a great speech or letter talking about the future and how much he has grown over the past decade, something will be needed for him IMO.
 

Whaleafs

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So he shouldn't get another job for the rest of his life? He messed up, clearly, and paid the piper. Time to move on.

There's no redemption for wrong think. Even if you say something that's completely acceptable at this moment you will retroactively be witch-hunted a decade from now when it no longer is.
 

kabidjan18

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I don't know how many of you have actually lived in America. If you live in another wonderful country, likely a country without racism in the forms it appears in the states, you may not be aware. The jump from "he said the N-word" to "he is a deeply prejudiced individual" is a huge jump.

I am a non-African American minority and, because of events that took place early in my life, have decidedly never used that word in public or private, ever. But I'm basically the only one I know who has taken on such a vow. I would say 90% of my friends and acquaintances are progressives, or at least vote liberally. It's not unnoticed either, black organizations have also picked up on the rampant use of the N-word by hispanic or latino communities. That's a huge problem and something that is coming between those two communities. It's also common in the asian community. And of course, it's commonly used by the suburban white community.

UC Riverside (a college in America) has put out a lot of research both on how humans tend to use words more frequently that they hear often, and even that they imitate accents that they hear often, and this makes sense intuitively. This also explains why you hear people imitating ebonics so often on TV or even in "Crazy Rich Asians" movie commercials :rolleyes:. Swear words have high circulation for two reasons. The first is music, especially hip hop music (which I love). The second is "hipster racism". I take that term from the former-Lenny Letter journalist who revealed that Lena Dunham's friend group often used such racial slurs to seem "edgy", though it is certainly not exclusive to people like Lena Dunham. Furthermore, of course, if you hang out with African Americans you will know that they refer to each other with that term all the time. Now, I am actually supportive of the notion that some words can only be used by some racial groups, and have never used the fact that other people within those sub-groups use that word as an excuse to myself use those words.

But again I must stress, I'm an anomaly. The science does not change. Statistically, if a word is in high circulation, it's likely to be used more often. Not simply people like Lena Dunham. Justin Bieber was caught using it. Quentin Tarantino. Charlie Sheen. Eminem. Jennifer Lopez. I believe most recently it was Josh Allen. I will quote Cardi B, who also was caught up in a recent controversy over that word:
“It’s just something that like, is a lingo, like even I want to stop saying it,” she explained. “I really can’t stop saying it, I’m sorry.”
“It seems like something that is so normal, which is bad, but it is what it is,” she continued.
Cardi B Reminds Us That Latinos Have A Complicated Relationship To The N-Word

Is the use of the N word an act of impropriety? Yeah, of course. Should it be eradicated outside of the black community? Yes, of course.

But when we declare that John (long name) is a closet racist because he used the N-word, we're establishing a parameter under which I would venture to say that the majority of Americans would be considered racists. You may believe that, and I have many friends who do believe that, but if you don't then that is not a meaningful parameter. A parameter is only meaningful when it identifies only true positives, as opposed to a parameter that identifies fifty false positives for every true positive. We also can't say "well John Long-name is an old white male, therefore, if he says the word we know it's a true-positive where if Cardi B says it we know it's a false-positive." People often reference such arguments as "circumstantial" arguments. They're not, they're simply poor methodology.

Furthermore, if we accept that most Americans are racist, the it would not seem like a big surprise that of a majority racist pool, a racist is being selected.

Overall, I see a lot of people trying to infer a complex sub-conscious mental composition to John Long-Name from only a single, very common, data point. That's faulty logic. He did something highly-improper. Unless you have more data, that's all you know, because that is all you can prove.

I do think there is a point to be made that black athletes may, rightly, feel uncomfortable around him. I think that angle could be explored further.
 
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vancityluongo

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USA Hockey obviously knew they would hear some **** on this, and they have to be prepared for it and fully believe in this man as being able to lead them into the future.

That's just the thing; did they actually even realize what the response would be?

https://nypost.com/2018/05/26/what-was-team-usa-thinking-in-hiring-vanbiesbrouck-or-was-it/

"We are told that the homogenous operation did a certain amount of due diligence in making the hire, though it has been confirmed that USA Hockey never reached out to Daley, the 34-year-old, 14-year NHL veteran defenseman who has two years remaining on his contract with the Red Wings."

Larry Brooks is pointing this out. Is that guy really a SJW?

It's weirdly, inexcusably poor PR from an organization that is essentially just about creating a strong image for hockey across the country. And the position they hired for is for a face to the organization. The public face of a public role! They skipped over such a simple step that would alleviate this whole "issue". Anything more than the standard "I regret what I said" from JVB would've helped...is that supposed to be taken at face value just because it's better than if he had said "I still use the n-word every day" ??? Despite knowing nothing about the guy, he's probably not a racist. But his position entails putting in a certain amount of effort to ensure that message comes across IMO.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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I don't know how many of you have actually lived in America. If you live in another wonderful country, likely a country without racism in the forms it appears in the states, you may not be aware. The jump from "he said the N-word" to "he is a deeply prejudiced individual" is a huge jump.

I am a non-African American minority and, because of events that took place early in my life, have decidedly never used that word in public or private, ever. But I'm basically the only one I know who has taken on such a vow. I would say 90% of my friends and acquaintances are progressives, or at least vote liberally. It's not unnoticed either, black organizations have also picked up on the rampant use of the N-word by hispanic or latino communities. That's a huge problem and something that is coming between those two communities. It's also common in the asian community. And of course, it's commonly used by the suburban white community.

UC Riverside (a college in America) has put out a lot of research both on how humans tend to use words more frequently that they hear often, and even that they imitate accents that they hear often, and this makes sense intuitively. This also explains why you hear people imitating ebonics so often on TV or even in "Crazy Rich Asians" movie commercials :rolleyes:. Swear words have high circulation for two reasons. The first is music, especially hip hop music (which I love). The second is "hipster racism". I take that term from the former-Lenny Letter journalist who revealed that Lena Dunham's friend group often used such racial slurs to seem "edgy", though it is certainly not exclusive to people like Lena Dunham. Furthermore, of course, if you hang out with African Americans you will know that they refer to each other with that term all the time. Now, I am actually supportive of the notion that some words can only be used by some racial groups, and have never used the fact that other people within those sub-groups use that word as an excuse to myself use those words.

But again I must stress, I'm an anomaly. The science does not change. Statistically, if a word is in high circulation, it's likely to be used more often. Not simply people like Lena Dunham. Justin Bieber was caught using it. Quentin Tarantino. Charlie Sheen. Eminem. Jennifer Lopez. I believe most recently it was Josh Allen. I will quote Cardi B, who also was caught up in a recent controversy over that word:
“It’s just something that like, is a lingo, like even I want to stop saying it,” she explained. “I really can’t stop saying it, I’m sorry.”
“It seems like something that is so normal, which is bad, but it is what it is,” she continued.
Cardi B Reminds Us That Latinos Have A Complicated Relationship To The N-Word

Is the use of the N word an act of impropriety? Yeah, of course. Should it be eradicated outside of the black community? Yes, of course.

But when we declare that John (long name) is a closet racist because he used the N-word, we're establishing a parameter under which I would venture to say that the majority of Americans would be considered racists. You may believe that, and I have many friends who do believe that, but if you don't then that is not a meaningful parameter. A parameter is only meaningful when it identifies only true positives, as opposed to a parameter that identifies fifty false positives for every true positive. We also can't say "well John Long-name is an old white male, therefore, if he says the word we know it's a true-positive where if Cardi B says it we know it's a false-positive." People often reference such arguments as "circumstantial" arguments. They're not, they're simply poor methodology.

Furthermore, if we accept that most Americans are racist, the it would not seem like a big surprise that of a majority racist pool, a racist is being selected.

Overall, I see a lot of people trying to infer a complex sub-conscious mental composition to John Long-Name from only a single, very common, data point. That's faulty logic. He did something highly-improper. Unless you have more data, that's all you know, because that is all you can prove.

I do think there is a point to be made that black athletes may, rightly, feel uncomfortable around him. I think that angle could be explored further.

This is long. Not bad, just long.

I guess I can give a perspective as a black male who's lived in several countries, including the U.S. and Canada. I've heard many people use the word, whether in jest\fun or in anger\frustration. I've reacted differently depending on the situation and context. I've gotten into four or five physical altercations as a direct result of the word being used within earshot.

Vanbiesbrouck is a moron. For an adult to refer to a teenager by that word, knowing he is the only (or perhaps one of a handful) player of colour, is asinine. Doing so when he was angry does not provide an excuse. People can say it was a while ago, and it was a mistake, and all that's true. Still, find yourself another old white dude to run your hockey program. There has to be a person in charge of marketing\Reputational Risk who should know better. Mind you, knowing how the hockey world works, it does not surprise me in the slightest that he as a) hired b) The USA Hockey people were surprised by the reaction. The hockey world is as obtuse as it is archaic.

As for Cardi-B, let's not even talk about how she's set the culture back, let alone use her as some kind of a moral compass when it comes to the use of derogatory language.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Why should USA Hockey feel obligated to reach out to Trevor Daley about the hire?

People can say it was a while ago, and it was a mistake, and all that's true. Still, find yourself another old white dude to run your hockey program.

So him resigning from his job, selling his ownership in the team and apologizing still isn't good enough?

We're ok with players abusing their wives/girlfriends, assaulting cab drivers and media members, and literally ending other players' careers through cheap shots, but a racial slur is where we draw the line? Doesn't make any sense.
 
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AmericanDream

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That's just the thing; did they actually even realize what the response would be?

https://nypost.com/2018/05/26/what-was-team-usa-thinking-in-hiring-vanbiesbrouck-or-was-it/

"We are told that the homogenous operation did a certain amount of due diligence in making the hire, though it has been confirmed that USA Hockey never reached out to Daley, the 34-year-old, 14-year NHL veteran defenseman who has two years remaining on his contract with the Red Wings."

Larry Brooks is pointing this out. Is that guy really a SJW?

It's weirdly, inexcusably poor PR from an organization that is essentially just about creating a strong image for hockey across the country. And the position they hired for is for a face to the organization. The public face of a public role! They skipped over such a simple step that would alleviate this whole "issue". Anything more than the standard "I regret what I said" from JVB would've helped...is that supposed to be taken at face value just because it's better than if he had said "I still use the n-word every day" ??? Despite knowing nothing about the guy, he's probably not a racist. But his position entails putting in a certain amount of effort to ensure that message comes across IMO.
why the hell should USA Hockey have to reach out to Daley?? It has been over for 15 years, it makes zero sense what anyone is asking here outside of creating shit when there really isn't any....Larry Brooks is an idiot if he thinks USA Hockey needed to reach out to Daley..Beezer wasn't a part of USA Hockey at the time, this is beyond ridiculous.
 

blueberrie

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Mar 23, 2010
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I don't know how many of you have actually lived in America. If you live in another wonderful country, likely a country without racism in the forms it appears in the states, you may not be aware. The jump from "he said the N-word" to "he is a deeply prejudiced individual" is a huge jump.

I am a non-African American minority and, because of events that took place early in my life, have decidedly never used that word in public or private, ever. But I'm basically the only one I know who has taken on such a vow. I would say 90% of my friends and acquaintances are progressives, or at least vote liberally. It's not unnoticed either, black organizations have also picked up on the rampant use of the N-word by hispanic or latino communities. That's a huge problem and something that is coming between those two communities. It's also common in the asian community. And of course, it's commonly used by the suburban white community.

UC Riverside (a college in America) has put out a lot of research both on how humans tend to use words more frequently that they hear often, and even that they imitate accents that they hear often, and this makes sense intuitively. This also explains why you hear people imitating ebonics so often on TV or even in "Crazy Rich Asians" movie commercials :rolleyes:. Swear words have high circulation for two reasons. The first is music, especially hip hop music (which I love). The second is "hipster racism". I take that term from the former-Lenny Letter journalist who revealed that Lena Dunham's friend group often used such racial slurs to seem "edgy", though it is certainly not exclusive to people like Lena Dunham. Furthermore, of course, if you hang out with African Americans you will know that they refer to each other with that term all the time. Now, I am actually supportive of the notion that some words can only be used by some racial groups, and have never used the fact that other people within those sub-groups use that word as an excuse to myself use those words.

But again I must stress, I'm an anomaly. The science does not change. Statistically, if a word is in high circulation, it's likely to be used more often. Not simply people like Lena Dunham. Justin Bieber was caught using it. Quentin Tarantino. Charlie Sheen. Eminem. Jennifer Lopez. I believe most recently it was Josh Allen. I will quote Cardi B, who also was caught up in a recent controversy over that word:
“It’s just something that like, is a lingo, like even I want to stop saying it,” she explained. “I really can’t stop saying it, I’m sorry.”
“It seems like something that is so normal, which is bad, but it is what it is,” she continued.
Cardi B Reminds Us That Latinos Have A Complicated Relationship To The N-Word

Is the use of the N word an act of impropriety? Yeah, of course. Should it be eradicated outside of the black community? Yes, of course.

But when we declare that John (long name) is a closet racist because he used the N-word, we're establishing a parameter under which I would venture to say that the majority of Americans would be considered racists. You may believe that, and I have many friends who do believe that, but if you don't then that is not a meaningful parameter. A parameter is only meaningful when it identifies only true positives, as opposed to a parameter that identifies fifty false positives for every true positive. We also can't say "well John Long-name is an old white male, therefore, if he says the word we know it's a true-positive where if Cardi B says it we know it's a false-positive." People often reference such arguments as "circumstantial" arguments. They're not, they're simply poor methodology.

Furthermore, if we accept that most Americans are racist, the it would not seem like a big surprise that of a majority racist pool, a racist is being selected.

Overall, I see a lot of people trying to infer a complex sub-conscious mental composition to John Long-Name from only a single, very common, data point. That's faulty logic. He did something highly-improper. Unless you have more data, that's all you know, because that is all you can prove.

I do think there is a point to be made that black athletes may, rightly, feel uncomfortable around him. I think that angle could be explored further.

I feel like someone saying it while rapping hip hop lyrics, or a white person calling their white friends it, or Tarentino using it for whatever effect in his films is massively different than

a general manager/employer calling his teenager captain it instead of his name while he's criticizing his play.

An ironic "wassup my n*****s" is completely different than "that n****** needs to show some heart and play better".

I hope I'm completely missing your point.

Then again there are some awful takes here. "Wrongthink/Something acceptable in the moment?" Casual racism was accetable in the early 2000s?
 

AmericanDream

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Oct 24, 2005
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Why should USA Hockey feel obligated to reach out to Trevor Daley about the hire?



So him resigning from his job, selling his ownership in the team and apologizing still isn't good enough?

We're ok with players abusing their wives/girlfriends, assaulting cab drivers and media members, and literally ending other players' careers through cheap shots, but a racial slur is where we draw the line? Doesn't make any sense.
lol, no f***ing clue....

I am so tired of these people, I really am...agree with everything you said as well..though it was only 1 cab driver and not plural!!
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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Why should USA Hockey feel obligated to reach out to Trevor Daley about the hire?



So him resigning from his job, selling his ownership in the team and apologizing still isn't good enough?

We're ok with players abusing their wives/girlfriends, assaulting cab drivers and media members, and literally ending other players' careers through cheap shots, but a racial slur is where we draw the line? Doesn't make any sense.

Public positions are public positions. Go get an accounting job, or open a car dealership. No one would complain.

That said, this isn't Vanbiesbrouck's fault. He just said yes. No one should be blaming him. USA Hockey should know better. Lots of noise for no good reason at all.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
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Washington, DC
I feel like someone saying it while rapping hip hop lyrics, or a white person calling their white friends it, or Tarentino using it for whatever effect in his films is massively different than

a general manager/employer calling his teenager captain it instead of his name while he's criticizing his play.

An ironic "wassup my n*****s" is completely different than "that n****** needs to show some heart and play better".

I hope I'm completely missing your point.

Then again there are some awful takes here. "Wrongthink/Something acceptable in the moment?" Casual racism was accetable in the early 2000s?

I tend to agree. Though again, if an ironic, casual "wassup my n****s" is heard by a person of colour, the subsequent ass kicking sustained by the speaker should be charge free.
 

kabidjan18

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I feel like someone saying it while rapping hip hop lyrics, or a white person calling their white friends it, or Tarentino using it for whatever effect in his films is massively different than

a general manager/employer calling his teenager captain it instead of his name while he's criticizing his play.

An ironic "wassup my n*****s" is completely different than "that n****** needs to show some heart and play better".

I hope I'm completely missing your point.

Then again there are some awful takes here. "Wrongthink/Something acceptable in the moment?" Casual racism was accetable in the early 2000s?
You're going to find out very quickly that you'll likely be unable to make this parameter that you're trying to define precise.

Let's separate jest from anger for a second. Let's just say that angry usages are indicators, jestful ones are not. Ok, for one you still have the problem of a wide net. Like with other swear words, many people do not only use the word in question in jest. You still have a massive pool with potential false positives. Furthermore, this seems to be implying that jestful usages cannot be derogatory. We know they can be. Therefore, you'll inevitably acquit some false negatives. Ok, so he also was in a position of power. So would those exact words have been implicative if he was not in a position of power? Probably. Qualitatively, the content of the statement is not changed by the position of power. So whether you do a separating mechanism (all usages in power are implicative, not all usages without power are implicative) or you use a points mechanism (if power plus error then more likely to cross the implicative points threshold) you still have the same problem. It does not seem that nominal status had a defining impact on the (conscious or unconscious) intent of the person perpetrating the act. All errors perpetrated by people in power are not necessarily implicative, at least by the above parameters, as they could be in jest or for a "legitimate" cause (your definition, not mine) like Tarantino (a man of power) who you mentioned. How about frequency? If white men repeatedly refer to other white men as such in jest, is that less implicative than a single usage in frustration due to the context of the usage? Or is it worse due to the casual frequency? There are other factors that could also be mentioned.

The Supreme Court was trying to decide in Jacobellis v. Ohio what "obscenity" was, when Potter Stewart made the famous quote "I know it when I see it." Eventually, this is the type of argument you will have to make. "I know an implicative action when i see one, this is one." An argument not based off of adherence to enumerated parameters, but simply off of a gut instinct.

So yes, I get your argument about contextualism, I actually considered it when I wrote my blurb. But since that would be almost impossible to define, I went by a more simple definition. All usages by people without African descent are implicative.

Update: I seriously hope that those arguing for a strong contextualist distinction, especially as such a distinction can't be made precise, aren't in any way condoning usages they think are "jestful" or "casual".
 
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