John Tavares

[Bluelines]

Please indicate the clutch goals you speak of? Were they against bottom feeders or against contending teams? Because correct me if I'm wrong but the goal of an NHL franchise is to win the Stanley Cup? That all starts with your top players delivering in big games and I've yet to see that. No show in Boston, now show against contenders Tampa and Nashville, no show against the Islanders but damn he puts up goals against the lottery teams. The Leafs will be one and done in the playoffs this year.

That Auston Matthews, he's not a clutch guy, ZERO goals against:

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

New York Rangers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Winnipeg Jets

Carolina Hurricanes

Columbus Blue Jackets

Los Angeles Kings

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Probably should beat down on the guy because hey, I have an unrealistic set of standards for him that I don't apply to anyone else. HE'S SOOOOOO NOT CLUTCH... invisible vs Nashville, invisible against Tampa, invisible against Winnipeg, invisible against CBJ, invisible against Pitts ...

Marner ..sucks ..didn't step up and score against, Boston, Tampa, Calgary, Nashville, Pitts,Washington .. he sucks, totally not clutch... sucks!

Anaheim Ducks

Boston Bruins

Buffalo Sabres

Calgary Flames

Carolina Hurricanes

Chicago Blackhawks

Montreal Canadiens

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

Philadelphia Flyers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Vancouver Canucks

Washington Capitals

Winnipeg Jets

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Mess]

Tavares (IMO) isn’t going to cost us Gardiner. I sign Tavares all day long.
The problem is trying to pay 4 forwards and missing the needs on D and more aggressive “blue collar” skilled forwards.
As soon as Tavares came on, one winger should have been dealt for a solid D and the missing forward type.

I always saw this as a binary choice really.

IF you sign JT, then automatically for cap space & good team building strategies dictate that 1 of the 3 Amigos is moved, with Nylander the most likely cap casualty.

If Dubas plans on allocating nearly 1/2 of Leafs Cap (~$40 mil) to 4 forwards then Gardiner almost certainly is a goner and the Leafs defense gets even weaker, unless you can deal Zaitsev and let Hainsey walk and bottom fill with Marlies to try and keep Gardiner. Jake will also need to leave money on the table in a team discount because at his $7 mil UFA rate would be difficult to fit.

 

[Bluelines]

I always saw this as a binary choice really.

IF you sign JT, then automatically for cap space & good team building strategies dictate that 1 of the 3 Amigos is moved, with Nylander the most likely cap casualty.

If Dubas plans on allocating nearly 1/2 of Leafs Cap (~$40 mil) to 4 forwards then Gardiner almost certainly is a goner and the Leafs defense gets even weaker, unless you can deal Zaitsev and let Hainsey walk and bottom fill with Marlies to try and keep Gardiner. Jake will also need to leave money on the table in a team discount because at his $7 mil UFA rate would be difficult to fit.

Dubas has made it clear the solution for the Leafs D is already on the Marlies, I think he is refering to Lilly and Sandin. IMO there is virtually a zero chance Lilly is not on the big club next year. Sandin will be there the year after. IMO in 2 years they will be our #3 and #4 defenders.

 

[Matthews34]

I'm sure most are wondering what your feelings were on July 1st when Tavares was signed.

Seems like your issue is more so with Dubas and his cap allotment than it is with the player.

I wasn't happy with the signing especially when the terms were announced. How could you be with our dcore needing massive upgrades to become contensder status and Dubas is burning cap space on another forward knowing full well the 3 top dogs still new need contracts. Yes Tavares is a good player at a valued position but he wasn't the right fit for this team at this stage. Dubas and Leaf fans never seemed to stop and ask should I? rather than could I sign Tavares? I wish I could figure out how to search for all my posts instead of just the threads I started to prove it.

 

[Matthews34]

Dubas has made it clear the solution for the Leafs D is already on the Marlies, I think he is refering to Lilly and Sandin. IMO there is virtually a zero chance Lilly is not on the big club next year. Sandin will be there the year after. IMO in 2 years they will be our #3 and #4 defenders.

That's a huge risk to take on players that have never played an NHL game. He's running this team like he's playing NHL 19 in franchise mode.

 

[HockeyMad68]

That Auston Matthews, he's not a clutch guy, ZERO goals against:

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

New York Rangers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Winnipeg Jets

Carolina Hurricanes

Columbus Blue Jackets

Los Angeles Kings

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Probably should beat down on the guy because hey, I have an unrealistic set of standards for him that I don't apply to anyone else. HE'S SOOOOOO NOT CLUTCH... invisible vs Nashville, invisible against Tampa, invisible against Winnipeg, invisible against CBJ, invisible against Pitts ...

Marner ..sucks ..didn't step up and score against, Boston, Tampa, Calgary, Nashville, Pitts,Washington .. he sucks, totally not clutch... sucks!

Anaheim Ducks

Boston Bruins

Buffalo Sabres

Calgary Flames

Carolina Hurricanes

Chicago Blackhawks

Montreal Canadiens

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

Philadelphia Flyers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Vancouver Canucks

Washington Capitals

Winnipeg Jets

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In fairness to Auston he was targeted and injured in the first game against those classless Jets of winterpeg

 

[Matthews34]

That Auston Matthews, he's not a clutch guy, ZERO goals against:

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

New York Rangers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Winnipeg Jets

Carolina Hurricanes

Columbus Blue Jackets

Los Angeles Kings

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Probably should beat down on the guy because hey, I have an unrealistic set of standards for him that I don't apply to anyone else. HE'S SOOOOOO NOT CLUTCH... invisible vs Nashville, invisible against Tampa, invisible against Winnipeg, invisible against CBJ, invisible against Pitts ...

Marner ..sucks ..didn't step up and score against, Boston, Tampa, Calgary, Nashville, Pitts,Washington .. he sucks, totally not clutch... sucks!

Anaheim Ducks

Boston Bruins

Buffalo Sabres

Calgary Flames

Carolina Hurricanes

Chicago Blackhawks

Montreal Canadiens

Nashville Predators

New York Islanders

Philadelphia Flyers

Pittsburgh Penguins

St. Louis Blues

Tampa Bay Lightning

Vancouver Canucks

Washington Capitals

Winnipeg Jets

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Funny, I never said Marner or Matthews were clutch. 3 wrongs don't make a right. LOL

 

[18leafsfan18]

I wasn't happy with the signing especially when the terms were announced. How could you be with our dcore needing massive upgrades to become contensder status and Dubas is burning cap space on another forward knowing full well the 3 top dogs still new need contracts. Yes Tavares is a good player at a valued position but he wasn't the right fit for this team at this stage. Dubas and Leaf fans never seemed to stop and ask should I? rather than could I sign Tavares? I wish I could figure out how to search for all my posts instead of just the threads I started to prove it.

That's a huge risk to take on players that have never played an NHL game. He's running this team like he's playing NHL 19 in franchise mode.

How can you be upset about Tavares being signed. That was the biggest and best UFA signing in recent history. Guy is doing exactly what everyone thought he would.

Take a look at recent Stanley Cup Winners, almost every team had a similar cap situation paying their top players a lot and having cheap young players on ELC deals playing well. The Leafs cheap, young players will need to be on D.

How is trusting in drafted players a risky play. That's how you win in this league.

 

[Trapper]

I always saw this as a binary choice really.

IF you sign JT, then automatically for cap space & good team building strategies dictate that 1 of the 3 Amigos is moved, with Nylander the most likely cap casualty.

If Dubas plans on allocating nearly 1/2 of Leafs Cap (~$40 mil) to 4 forwards then Gardiner almost certainly is a goner and the Leafs defense gets even weaker, unless you can deal Zaitsev and let Hainsey walk and bottom fill with Marlies to try and keep Gardiner. Jake will also need to leave money on the table in a team discount because at his $7 mil UFA rate would be difficult to fit.

Nylander is down the list on the the Leafs pecking order. Matthews, Marner and Tavares will always take precedence.

I was being sarcastic yesterday in the Nylander thread saying he should get 80 points easy playing with Matthews if Marner gets 100 playing with JT. Some missed the sarcasm but illustrated the point that Willy will always get 2nd PP and unlikely see the ice in the final minutes. You don’t pay 7 million for 2nd fiddle. Especially when another top 4 would be seeing a more critical situation. And when the argument was you don’t trade an 80 point “elite” player. Well he hasn’t scored 80 and many mentioned how that would be difficult given the dynamic around him.

For these reasons,balance, plus missing player types, he should have been dealt.

 

[RLF]

I wasn't happy with the signing especially when the terms were announced. How could you be with our dcore needing massive upgrades to become contensder status and Dubas is burning cap space on another forward knowing full well the 3 top dogs still new need contracts. Yes Tavares is a good player at a valued position but he wasn't the right fit for this team at this stage. Dubas and Leaf fans never seemed to stop and ask should I? rather than could I sign Tavares? I wish I could figure out how to search for all my posts instead of just the threads I started to prove it.

You have a better chance winning down the middle than from the wing. We now have two 1st line centres like Pitt, LA when they won, arguably Tampa right now. You could say the same thing for signing the "Top 3" to big contracts. Instead of could I? Should I?
For instance. Are we a better team with Trading Nylander for a top 4 D or keeping Nylander and trading Tavares for one? I would say more cap room if moving Tavares but weaker team, better team with less cap room by moving Willy.

 

[Cotton]

How anyone can complain about having John Tavares on this team is insane.

 

[RLF]

Nylander is down the list on the the Leafs pecking order. Matthews, Marner and Tavares will always take precedence.

I was being sarcastic yesterday in the Nylander thread saying he should get 80 points easy playing with Matthews if Marner gets 100 playing with JT. Some missed the sarcasm but illustrated the point that Willy will always get 2nd PP and unlikely see the ice in the final minutes. You don’t pay 7 million for 2nd fiddle. Especially when another top 4 would be seeing a more critical situation. And when the argument was you don’t trade an 80 point “elite” player. Well he hasn’t scored 80 and many mentioned how that would be difficult given the dynamic around him.

For these reasons,balance, plus missing player types, he should have been dealt.

This is a quote from the Nylander thread that a part of it really stood out to me.

"All of these naysayers would be completely silent if he played the same way and had 1 pt/game avg. In fact that is what is very likely to happen. His style will not change but his legs, his hand/eye and finally his game will come back to NHL level in next few weeks and he will produce points. He is not going to do much else. He never has before and he won't in the future. He might even be sat down against a team like the Bruins because that is not his game. Players of this ilk all have the same issues. Forgetting about the dr*gs it is why Bruins did not like Seguin. It is why Pens fans have troubles with Kessel. But when those guys are on from a scoring standpoint no one gives a cr*p. It has been like this throughout hockey history. Every team has a guy or two like this. So relax and wait for his game to come back. No worries here."

Not trying to knock the poster...but pay a guy $7M and he may have to be sat out against teams like Boston because it isn't his style of game and that's ok? You don't pay a guy $7M that you figure you can't use in certain series in the playoffs. We should have No worries about that? What?
I couldn't ever imagine sitting out JT against anyone. Contracts included, with the talent on this team, Nylander is more expendable to me than Tavares.​

 

[Mess]

Nylander is down the list on the the Leafs pecking order. Matthews, Marner and Tavares will always take precedence.

I was being sarcastic yesterday in the Nylander thread saying he should get 80 points easy playing with Matthews if Marner gets 100 playing with JT. Some missed the sarcasm but illustrated the point that Willy will always get 2nd PP and unlikely see the ice in the final minutes. You don’t pay 7 million for 2nd fiddle. Especially when another top 4 would be seeing a more critical situation. And when the argument was you don’t trade an 80 point “elite” player. Well he hasn’t scored 80 and many mentioned how that would be difficult given the dynamic around him.

For these reasons,balance, plus missing player types, he should have been dealt.

My #1 reason after signing JT was Leafs internal pay scale and depth chart.

Leafs most important and highest paid players via depth chart.
1) Matthews
2) Tavares
3) Marner
4) Rielly
5) Andersen
-------------------
6) Nylander

In a cap world paying your #4 forward and #6 ranked player $7 mil is NUTS, if the goal is to be a Cup competitive team. You were not that far off on when being factious about Nylander because he would for his money need to produce 70-80 points to validate that contract and attempt such a top heavy forward attack and make sacrifices to the Dcore and team depth to make it happen.

When you add Tavares then that #6 position on the depth chart $$ and importance should really be a Dman making $5-7 mil and impacting the team defense accordingly.

If you have 3 F + 2D + 1G = core and depth chart you have balance.

 

[Bluelines]

Funny, I never said Marner or Matthews were clutch. 3 wrongs don't make a right. LOL

No I agree with your blueprint on how to determine clutch players, we have no clutch players, lets get rid of them all.

 

[18leafsfan18]

My #1 reason after signing JT was Leafs internal pay scale and depth chart.

Leafs most important and highest paid players via depth chart.
1) Matthews
2) Tavares
3) Marner
4) Rielly
5) Andersen
-------------------
6) Nylander

In a cap world paying your #4 forward and #6 ranked player $7 mil is NUTS, if the goal is to be a Cup competitive team. You were not that far off on when being factious about Nylander because he would for his money need to produce 70-80 points to validate that contract and attempt such a top heavy forward attack and make sacrifices to the Dcore and team depth to make it happen.

When you add Tavares then that #6 position on the depth chart $$ and importance should really be a Dman making $5-7 mil and impacting the team defense accordingly.

If you have 3 F + 2D + 1G = core and depth chart you have balance.

Is that you Burkie ?

How can you justify paying a player based on his rank on the team ? Players get paid based on their value, not on where they rank on their team.

Everyone loves the Nylander comparables, so look at some of them:

Is Ehlers a top 5 player on his team ?

Is Forsburg a top 5 player on his team ?

They are ranked basically exactly how Nylander is #6 or #7 most important

Obviously there are arguments on the other side as well in Pasternak etc.

 

[ACC1224]

I wasn't happy with the signing especially when the terms were announced. How could you be with our dcore needing massive upgrades to become contensder status and Dubas is burning cap space on another forward knowing full well the 3 top dogs still new need contracts. Yes Tavares is a good player at a valued position but he wasn't the right fit for this team at this stage. Dubas and Leaf fans never seemed to stop and ask should I? rather than could I sign Tavares? I wish I could figure out how to search for all my posts instead of just the threads I started to prove it.

If things are going along as you expected why the issue with the player?
Sounds like he's bringing what you thought he would.

 

[RLF]

Is that you Burkie ?

How can you justify paying a player based on his rank on the team ? Players get paid based on their value, not on where they rank on their team.

Everyone loves the Nylander comparables, so look at some of them:

Is Ehlers a top 5 player on his team ?

Is Forsburg a top 5 player on his team ?

They are ranked basically exactly how Nylander is #6 or #7 most important

Obviously there are arguments on the other side as well in Pasternak etc.

Rank on their team and value placement could be very similar. The so-called comparables are really from a player standpoint. The team has to structure contracts based on how they plan on managing the cap and where the put, as you said, the value (or rank) on each player. Some teams have traded some of their talent away before their big contracts in order to keep their top end players. Chicago choose that route numerous times. The Jets, Preds, Leafs are all gong to have tough decisions soon because of how they have spent and all have players looking for raises in the next year or two that are prominent players.

Jets, Preds, Bruins could afford the Ehlers/Forsberg/Pastrnak contracts at the time and chose so to try and win now, both will have trouble keeping all the players that need contracts in the future, just like the Leafs did for this year. Our problem starts next year...and Willy may be a casualty depending on how Leafs want to manage their own cap.

 

[Bluelines]

If things are going along as you expected why the issue with the player?
Sounds like he's bringing what you thought he would.

There is always one in every crowd eh?

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Who the hell are you to tell me to stop following the Leafs!!!! I’ve been a fan for over 3 decades

Wow dude I thought you deserved a break because I figured you must be 12 years old.

This is all just very odd.

 

[Matthews34]

You have a better chance winning down the middle than from the wing. We now have two 1st line centres like Pitt, LA when they won, arguably Tampa right now. You could say the same thing for signing the "Top 3" to big contracts. Instead of could I? Should I?
For instance. Are we a better team with Trading Nylander for a top 4 D or keeping Nylander and trading Tavares for one? I would say more cap room if moving Tavares but weaker team, better team with less cap room by moving Willy.

Apparently as long as Dubas is GM Nylander won't be traded period.

 

[Matthews34]

I wonder how you all will feel about the Tavares signing when Matthews gets offer sheeted for 16 million and is playing in Arizona next year and Marner's holding out for 12 million.

 

[RLF]

Apparently as long as Dubas is GM Nylander won't be traded period.

Yes, apparently. I think he may have to break his promise though. Not a great dynamic, but may have to be done if he can't move a Zaitsev or Marleau for instance and replace him for less. I don't think the Leafs will let it get to a point where an offer sheet is available.

 

[Bluelines]

I wonder how you all will feel about the Tavares signing when Matthews gets offer sheeted for 16 million and is playing in Arizona next year and Marner's holding out for 12 million.

4 first round picks for a team that is already stacked with young talent ....hmmmmm... that is a tough one...

 

[Trapper]

Apparently as long as Dubas is GM Nylander won't be traded period.

Then they need to start using him in superstar roles and priority as other superstars making salary dictate.

 

[New Liskeard]

Dubas has made it clear the solution for the Leafs D is already on the Marlies, I think he is refering to Lilly and Sandin. IMO there is virtually a zero chance Lilly is not on the big club next year. Sandin will be there the year after. IMO in 2 years they will be our #3 and #4 defenders.

I would think the Leafs organisation would much prefer to have lily in the A next year as well. He is not ready yet; and despite what many do not like (im one) Zaitsev and Oz are two of the 3 RHD for next year (maybe they keep Holl).