Value of: John Tavares vs. Auston Matthews

[hotpaws]

Where did I Say Tavares was a golden boy, or that Matthews wasn't good? I simply stated that the teams that Tavares has played on have been notably devoid of talent - thus the reason anyone thinks its even remotely feasible that he leaves. Playing with better linemates helps, but when teams have to game plan around 3 lines as opposed to 1, it also provides more opportunity for individuals to score.

Sorry you got all riled up because I didnt christen Matthews as my savior.

Edit: Conversely - McDavid just put up how many points with Pat "ICarryMcDavid" Maroon glued to his side, so I guess we can settle that whole debate on who is generational and who isn't, eh? (Before anyone jumps further down the throat for not praising Jesus Matthews, this is sarcasm.)

I didn't slap any label on Mathews , i'm just simply tired of hearing how every player Tavares has ever played with is a slug and has held him back just to make his light shine brighter .

also i never compared him with McDavid who i believe is the most talented player i've seen since Mario and a cut above every player presently talent wise including Sid

 

[93LEAFS]

Lidstrom has been nominated for the hart. He's just never won it. Then again only 1 defensemen has won the hart since Bobby Orr and that was Pronger. Defensemen don't get recognition from the league but that shouldn't take away from whether they can be considered generational.

He has 7 Norris trophys and a Conn Smythe. I put him ahead of a few people you mentioned as debatable.

Lidstrom never finished top 3 in voting, which are the nominees/finalists. He was never viewed by the players or writers as the best player in the league for any one season (or top 3 by the writers). That takes him out of the generational running for me. I don't have different standards defined by position. You are either viewed as the best player in the league for a sustained period of time or you aren't.

He was a great player, he wasn't generational in my opinion due to this. I don't see how he's ahead of any the people I listed as debatable except maybe Mikita.

Elite forwards tend to be more impactful and drive play more than defenders. On top of that, the divide between an average forward and an elite forward tends to be bigger divide than that of defenders and their counterparts. This is why they tend to win these awards. Other defenders have finished top 3 in voting outside of Pronger since Orr won such as Bourque, Langway, Mark Howe, and Potvin.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Tavares at 19: 24g/54 pts
Tavares at 20: 29g/67 pts
Tavares at 26: 28g/66pts

vs

Matthews at 19: 40g/69pts

Matthews is already better. If Tavares was putting up 75-80+ pts every single year, you could make the case he is better.

Let's conveniently ignore all of Tavares' good statistical seasons in favor of only his poor statistical seasons. Let's also ignore his pair of Hart nominations. Brilliant.

 

[LordNeverLose]

well he already hit 40g, Tavares has never done that. Tavares has only topped 69 pts three times (once being 70pts).
Matthews is well on his way if he isnt already better right now (and statistically he was better than Tavares last year and that isn't even debatable)

Laine had a better goals/game production than Matthews last season. I guess he's a better player because goals = everything?

 

[LordNeverLose]

Matthews and MacKinnon are very different situations.

Because you hope Matthews doesn't progress like MacKinnon? In what way are they all that different?

 

[LordNeverLose]

Matthews is a better player right now to even start. When other factors taken into consideration, Tavares value doesnt even come close to Matthews

Quick example: Matthews took a lotto team to the playoffs the next season, Tavares took 4 years

MacKinnon took a lotto team to the top of the best division in hockey his rookie season, I guess he's the GOAT

 

[LordNeverLose]

Which John Tavares are we talking about?

The 2015 MVP caliber player or the one from the past 2 seasons?

Might as well have just posted "I use HockeyDB exclusively to decide how good a player is."

 

[93LEAFS]

MacKinnon took a lotto team to the top of the best division in hockey his rookie season, I guess he's the GOAT

Yeah, lets just ignore his over 11% oiSH at ES with a 9.8% at 5v5, which is notably above league average (and tends to regress below 10 for every player but Crosby and Stamkos) and the fact he spent half the time on the wing. That teams MVP was pretty clearly Varlamov.

 

[93LEAFS]

Better passer
Better possession player (if you're the type of person who cares about such things)
Better hands
Stronger on the puck
Proven to have the ability to carry his team in the playoffs (not that Matthews can't, but JT has proven it)
...

He's just flat-out a better player right now. The only people who would disagree with that are Leafs' homers and those few posters who never watch Tavares but assume he's on the decline due to his point totals.

Matthews hands are as good or better than Tavares, he's also just as strong on the puck. Matthews is a better possession player at the same age (and it tends to improve for young centers, especially ones in the league as teenagers). Tavares has one playoff series victory, I wouldn't call that a proven ability to carry a team in the playoffs.

Tavares is a great player, but most of your points are very debatable. Matthews game is very similar to Tavares, but he has better physical tools, in size and skating.

 

[AcerComputer]

Better passer
Better possession player (if you're the type of person who cares about such things)
Better hands
Stronger on the puck
Proven to have the ability to carry his team in the playoffs (not that Matthews can't, but JT has proven it)
...

He's just flat-out a better player right now. The only people who would disagree with that are Leafs' homers and those few posters who never watch Tavares but assume he's on the decline due to his point totals.

So much wrong with this post

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Tavares is a proven player playing in a market that doesnt get much love really... Matthews was a rookie playing sheltered minutes... Tavares is better because hes proven. These leaf homer comments are great tho... Love how u guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment

 

[93LEAFS]

Tavares is a proven player playing in a market that doesnt get much love really... Matthews was a rookie playing sheltered minutes... Tavares is better because hes proven. These leaf homer comments are great tho... Love how u guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment

These random fan bases (with a bunch being Jets fans) using this narrative to knock down Matthews is hilarious. Neither QOC metrics show Matthews to be sheltered, and people really overestimate the impact of it, due to the fact teams match lines home and away, which has a counterbalancing effect over 82 games.

I'd love to see it shown how Matthews is sheltered. If you want, go to naturalstattrick and see who he tended to play against.

 

[gwh]

Discuss

Mathews:

1st line ELC rookie.

Tavares:

1st line 2018 UFA, 27yo.


/thread

(And why make this thread, unless you want to rile up people? Nobody trades 10 years of top line player to 1 year of top line player... Tavares is a better player though)

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

These random fan bases (with a bunch being Jets fans) using this narrative to knock down Matthews is hilarious. Neither QOC metrics show Matthews to be sheltered, and people really overestimate the impact of it, due to the fact teams match lines home and away, which has a counterbalancing effect over 82 games.

I'd love to see it shown how Matthews is sheltered. If you want, do to naturalstattrick and see who he tended to play against.

Teams the Leafs played the most (Atlantic):

Buf - Reinhart (F), Gorges (D)
Det - Zetterberg (F), Green (D)
Ott - Pageau (F), Karlsson/Phaneuf (D)
Mtl - Lehkonen (F), Weber (D)
Bos - Krejci (F), Chara (D)
TB - Drouin (F), Sustr (D)
Fla - Mackenzie (F), Matheson (D)

 

[Goldenhands]

I think Matthews is already better than Tavares, there no way Toronto moves him.. The only young player I would pick over Matthews is McDavid.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Only Gretzky Lemieux Orr Crosby and Howe are really generational talent worthy. Potentially McDavid could be too if he can dominate for the next 10 years.

 

[48g90a138pts]

Only Gretzky Lemieux Orr Crosby and Howe are really generational talent worthy. Potentially McDavid could be too if he can dominate for the next 10 years.

Well a few others could make that list. But I like your statement. Let's wait and see what the player does for a decade before crowning him. The term "Generational" has definitely been thrown out there way way to much lately. So much i'm sick of hearing and reading the word.

BTW Coffey was Generational. I'm not biased at all.

 

[schpaff]

I think Matthews is already a better all around player than eichel. From what I have heard over the last year and a bit if matthews was a few days older the 2015 draft would have went mcdavid matthews eichel.

False...when does school start?

 

[Halla]

Let's conveniently ignore all of Tavares' good statistical seasons in favor of only his poor statistical seasons. Let's also ignore his pair of Hart nominations. Brilliant.

yeah not like comparing tavares at the same age, or comparing the only year he was in the league at the same time as matthews is relevant.

Tavares was a hart nominee when Matthews was still in High school.
that must be more relevant to the season past

 

[Halla]

False...when does school start?

true. let us know when eichel gets 40. heck let us know when he gets 25 or 30. then he can be in the convo of being as good as matthews.

0.49 goals/gm and 0.84 pts/gm >> 0.34 goals/gm and 0.80 pts/gm

that isnt even factoring in the 2:18 per game of extra icetime eichel got either. pts/60 is a blowout in matthews favor

 

[Laineux]

They're close right now but they're not even remotely comparable in value. Tavares will be a free agent in one year.

 

[Halla]

Only Gretzky Lemieux Orr Crosby and Howe are really generational talent worthy. Potentially McDavid could be too if he can dominate for the next 10 years.

one of those doesnt belong with the others.lets see crosby get another 700 pts or so before lumping him in with the top 5 all time players eh pens fan?

 

[Halla]

MacKinnon took a lotto team to the top of the best division in hockey his rookie season, I guess he's the GOAT

I coulda swore he was the 4th leading scorer on that team after duchene, landeskog, and ROR. I believe Stastny was only a few pts behind him in 11 less games as well, putting him 5th in pts/game.

not really the same as leading the team in goals and pts eh?

 

[Halla]

Tavares. Mathews had a great rookie season on a team stacked in the top 9. Mathews is going to be a great young center but Tavares is the more complete player and he does more with less around him.

lol. another "unbiased" opinion from a habs fan.

Why should we listen to a guy who can't even spell Matthews name right?

Tavares does more with less around him...yeah and Matthews had a linemate for 82 games that scored exactly 0 goals off his passes. 0. Hyman didnt put in a single Matthews dish. pretty much blows up that argument eh?

 

[LeapOnOver]

The miscreants trying to compare stats on two different teams with two different supporting casts can just get lost now. It's an exercise in futility.

Doing the obvious thing and basing their value on talent, Matthews has more value as he is younger and more years of production left than Tavares.

No need to cherry pick stats that mean nothing to prove a point. See some long time posters on here that should be holding their heads in shame for their mockery of an argument. Looking at you 친구!