Player Discussion John Moore

[Fenian24]

Maybe they try Grzelcyk on the right, he’d probably be better than Miller.

Moore-Grzelcyk

Or Moore on the right.

No he wouldn't be and he wouldn't be better than McQuaid either.Sadly I think Sweeney sees a lot if himself in Grizz and he will get more opportunities than he deserves. He is a nice depth D but lack of size moves him down the chart, also offensive Dmen usually account for more than 18 points

 

[Mainehockey33]

No he wouldn't be and he wouldn't be better than McQuaid either.Sadly I think Sweeney sees a lot if himself in Grizz and he will get more opportunities than he deserves. He is a nice depth D but lack of size moves him down the chart, also offensive Dmen usually account for more than 18 points

He blew Mcquaid’s +/- out of the water as a rookie. Also had a higher +/- then his partner Miller. Do you think he won’t progress past what he showed as a rookie? I doubt it. For as much offense as Krug produces in the playoffs, he had a worse +/-.

Grzelcyk wasn’t as flashy as Krug or as physical as Miller but he was more reliable. He was a big part of the teams success last season and the transition game.

Wasn’t there a game where Grzelcyk had to play in the top 4 and didn’t look out of place at all? Every time Miller plays in the top 4 he looks out of place. Grzelcyk has much more upside then Miller or Mcquaid.

 

[Fenian24]

He blew Mcquaid’s +/- out of the water as a rookie. Also had a higher +/- then his partner Miller. Do you think he won’t progress past what he showed as a rookie? I doubt it. For as much offense as Krug produces in the playoffs, he had a worse +/-.

Grzelcyk wasn’t as flashy as Krug or as physical as Miller but he was more reliable. He was a big part of the teams success last season and the transition game.

Wasn’t there a game where Grzelcyk had to play in the top 4 and didn’t look out of place at all? Every time Miller plays in the top 4 he looks out of place. Grzelcyk has much more upside then Miller or Mcquaid.

Hitting at the moment is sti part of the game, whether Eric Lindros likes it or not, Miller and McQuaid are better fits as 3rd pair D due to their physical play and size, Grizz may have a batter future than either because if his age, there is no reason to have him any higher than 8th on the D depth chart. Just my take, I still take a tough D over a small non physical D

 

[Mainehockey33]

Hitting at the moment is sti part of the game, whether Eric Lindros likes it or not, Miller and McQuaid are better fits as 3rd pair D due to their physical play and size, Grizz may have a batter future than either because if his age, there is no reason to have him any higher than 8th on the D depth chart. Just my take, I still take a tough D over a small non physical D

Hitting is important but we have Carlo, Chara, Mcavoy, and Moore with size and physicality that bring more then just that. I trust Grzelcyk’s ability to skate the puck out of trouble over Miller’s ability to hit a player along the boards in the defensive zone.

The 3rd pair was as good as it was last year because of Grzelcyk, not Miller. I think an argument could be made that Grzelcyk is the better defensive defenseman.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

No he wouldn't be and he wouldn't be better than McQuaid either.Sadly I think Sweeney sees a lot if himself in Grizz and he will get more opportunities than he deserves. He is a nice depth D but lack of size moves him down the chart, also offensive Dmen usually account for more than 18 points

Seems like a rather baseless and bizarre accusation.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Why do people act like its a bad thing if servicable defensemen like Miller/McQuaid/Grizz have to sit because they are 7 on the depth chart. To me that is great.

Its nice to have 8 proven guys because noone has a good read on the blue liners in Providence at this point and if they will turn into NHLers or the b word.

 

[mjhfb]

Seems like a rather baseless and bizarre accusation.

As a player, Don Sweeney had many good qualities, but soft hands and puck skills, like Grz has shown, were not among them. Different players.

 

[neelynugs]

NHL Notes: John Moore is longtime B-liever

i don't really know where john moore fits within this blueline, but he's certainly a very
well-spoken/interesting fella. really good read on him here.

 

[DaStinger]

Personally I have no problem with healthy competition at the blueline. If anything we will have the necessary depth when the injury bug strikes. If it becomes truly redundant we have options at the trade deadline.

 

[BruinDust]

No he wouldn't be and he wouldn't be better than McQuaid either.Sadly I think Sweeney sees a lot if himself in Grizz and he will get more opportunities than he deserves. He is a nice depth D but lack of size moves him down the chart, also offensive Dmen usually account for more than 18 points

I'm 5'8 about 200 lbs, whenever I see someone else at work whose roughly the same height and weight as me, I typically say to myself "wow I really see some of myself in them", and when it comes to promotion time, I like to lean towards co-workers who are also the same height and weight as me.

 

[DrJustice]

No he wouldn't be and he wouldn't be better than McQuaid either.Sadly I think Sweeney sees a lot if himself in Grizz and he will get more opportunities than he deserves. He is a nice depth D but lack of size moves him down the chart, also offensive Dmen usually account for more than 18 points

I mean Bruce Cassidy is still the coach of the Boston Bruins and it's really up to him who is going to in the lineup no? If anything Cassidy is the guy who was a 5'11 dman who liked the push the pace not Sweeney. Though to be fair I never watched Don play so I really don't know much about his playing days.

If you think about it Sweeney just signed a 6'3 Dman that's gonna make it a lot harder for Grizz to make the lineup.

 

[hoss75]

 

[Son of Donegal]

I think the John Moore signing might be looked back on as one of Sweeney's smarter moves. Here's why:
a. Internal Competition - With 4 legit LHD signed, there will be some exciting internal competition...hopefully leading to increased output from that position.
b. Match-up Flexibility - I think Cassidy will appreciate having the flexibility to slot in Moore or Gryz as needed depending on the match-up.
c. Injury Insurance - look at the Bruins injury woes last November!
d. Trade Assets - teams are always looking for PMD's come the trade deadline or off-season. If the B's 3C or RW situation hasn't solidified by the deadline, the Bruins might be able to package one of the LHD for an impact forward.

As for the right side, as long as Carlo plays the way he did leading up to his injury, the RHD position is an area of strength.

 

[maxl7]

View attachment 136407

All this graph tells me is that when he was on the ice his team didn't really ever have the puck.

 

[Bmessy]

Why do people act like its a bad thing if servicable defensemen like Miller/McQuaid/Grizz have to sit because they are 7 on the depth chart. To me that is great.

Its nice to have 8 proven guys because noone has a good read on the blue liners in Providence at this point and if they will turn into NHLers or the b word.

I agree. Especially with a team who has had their D corp decimated by the playoffs 2 years in a row. People have real short memories here or something.

 

[UConn126]

Hitting is important but we have Carlo, Chara, Mcavoy, and Moore with size and physicality that bring more then just that. I trust Grzelcyk’s ability to skate the puck out of trouble over Miller’s ability to hit a player along the boards in the defensive zone.

The 3rd pair was as good as it was last year because of Grzelcyk, not Miller. I think an argument could be made that Grzelcyk is the better defensive defenseman.

Neither Carlo nor Moore are known for their physicality, in fact quite the opposite. They've got big bodies, but neither of them have a track record of using them.

 

[maxl7]

I think the John Moore signing might be looked back on as one of Sweeney's smarter moves. Here's why:
a. Internal Competition - With 4 legit LHD signed, there will be some exciting internal competition...hopefully leading to increased output from that position.
b. Match-up Flexibility - I think Cassidy will appreciate having the flexibility to slot in Moore or Gryz as needed depending on the match-up.
c. Injury Insurance - look at the Bruins injury woes last November!
d. Trade Assets - teams are always looking for PMD's come the trade deadline or off-season. If the B's 3C or RW situation hasn't solidified by the deadline, the Bruins might be able to package one of the LHD for an impact forward.

As for the right side, as long as Carlo plays the way he did leading up to his injury, the RHD position is an area of strength.

a. If they wanted competition to push Gryz, they didn't need to give a guy 5-years. There are plenty of capable depth defensemen available who could have been signed for cheaper and shorter term. As it stands, if Gryz makes the lineup, then no matter what the defense pairings are you have anywhere from $3-5.5 million sitting in the press box. Not exactly a good use of cap space.
b. The problem with this thinking is that Moore does not have a good history of driving positive results, so if he is playing over Grz then the team is almost assuredly going to be worse off. Yes, he has the edge on Gryz in inputs: size, strength, experience but the outputs and on-ice results are where it counts.
c. See point A. Don't need to overpay for depth.
d. Every team needs a PMD but everyone here keeps telling me that we can't have both Gryz and Krug on the same team. If you buy that flawed logic then you're still left with Moore getting regular minutes which is a net negative for on ice results.

 

[4ORRBRUIN]

a. If they wanted competition to push Gryz, they didn't need to give a guy 5-years. There are plenty of capable depth defensemen available who could have been signed for cheaper and shorter term. As it stands, if Gryz makes the lineup, then no matter what the defense pairings are you have anywhere from $3-5.5 million sitting in the press box. Not exactly a good use of cap space.
b. The problem with this thinking is that Moore does not have a good history of driving positive results, so if he is playing over Grz then the team is almost assuredly going to be worse off. Yes, he has the edge on Gryz in inputs: size, strength, experience but the outputs and on-ice results are where it counts.
c. See point A. Don't need to overpay for depth.
d. Every team needs a PMD but everyone here keeps telling me that we can't have both Gryz and Krug on the same team. If you buy that flawed logic then you're still left with Moore getting regular minutes which is a net negative for on ice results.

I think I will give more at least 10 games before I start trashing him.

 

[maxl7]

I think I will give more at least 10 games before I start trashing him.

I'm just going by his history of 447 career NHL games.


Maybe he starts pushing the needle with reduced minutes/a small role. Still a hell of a gamble to make.

 

[Son of Donegal]

a. If they wanted competition to push Gryz, they didn't need to give a guy 5-years. There are plenty of capable depth defensemen available who could have been signed for cheaper and shorter term. As it stands, if Gryz makes the lineup, then no matter what the defense pairings are you have anywhere from $3-5.5 million sitting in the press box. Not exactly a good use of cap space.
b. The problem with this thinking is that Moore does not have a good history of driving positive results, so if he is playing over Grz then the team is almost assuredly going to be worse off. Yes, he has the edge on Gryz in inputs: size, strength, experience but the outputs and on-ice results are where it counts.
c. See point A. Don't need to overpay for depth.
d. Every team needs a PMD but everyone here keeps telling me that we can't have both Gryz and Krug on the same team. If you buy that flawed logic then you're still left with Moore getting regular minutes which is a net negative for on ice results.

a. Competition from an NHL regular is a little different than competition from a guy like Adam Clendening. Moore's 5 year contract was a bit of a head scratcher, but the cap hit is low. Regardless, he was one of the better value pick-ups this free agency. Also, the $3-$5 in the press box is nothing to worry about considering the Bruins will be very efficient with cap usage elsewhere in the line-up. Also, the $21m devoted to D is much lower than most teams.

b. This is the hardest point to refute because you are right, Moore is not statistically better than our other LHD. However, Cassidy's focus on transition game and skating lead me to believe that Moore has a good chance of finding a fit here in Boston. He is certainly not a defensive defenseman, but he had a strong 2018-19 and can log 18-20. Remember when the Bruins picked up Nick Holden..and all the hate he received. He was fine. Pair Moore with a defensive stalwart like Miller and see what happens.

C. See point A as well. $21m is not an overpayment on your D squad, especially when you only spend <$6m on your top pairing. Bruins can afford to invest in quality depth in 2018, especially when they were the 2nd most injured team in the NHL last year.

d. Until we see how the left side looks this year, how can one decide whether Krug, Gryz or Moore should be traded? Again, with only $21m tied up in the D corps, I don't see why you can't keep them all on the roster this year.

 

[BruinDust]

I'm just going by his history of 447 career NHL games.


Maybe he starts pushing the needle with reduced minutes/a small role. Still a hell of a gamble to make.

What do all these terms mean? Net negative and pushing the needle.

Fact is, John Moore has averaged roughly 20 mins a night his last 3 seasons in NJ. So it took him a little longer to establish himself.

They know that they can't ask Chara to play the entire PK all game every game for 82 regular season games plus playoffs and expect it not to take it's toll. They wanted another left-shot caliber D-man who can take some of that load off. So they brought in Moore at a smaller cap hit in exchange for term.

 

[maxl7]

a. Competition from an NHL regular is a little different than competition from a guy like Adam Clendening. Moore's 5 year contract was a bit of a head scratcher, but the cap hit is low. Regardless, he was one of the better value pick-ups this free agency. Also, the $3-$5 in the press box is nothing to worry about considering the Bruins will be very efficient with cap usage elsewhere in the line-up. Also, the $21m devoted to D is much lower than most teams.

b. This is the hardest point to refute because you are right, Moore is not statistically better than our other LHD. However, Cassidy's focus on transition game and skating lead me to believe that Moore has a good chance of finding a fit here in Boston. He is certainly not a defensive defenseman, but he had a strong 2018-19 and can log 18-20. Remember when the Bruins picked up Nick Holden..and all the hate he received. He was fine. Pair Moore with a defensive stalwart like Miller and see what happens.

C. See point A as well. $21m is not an overpayment on your D squad, especially when you only spend <$6m on your top pairing. Bruins can afford to invest in quality depth in 2018, especially when they were the 2nd most injured team in the NHL last year.

d. Until we see how the left side looks this year, how can one decide whether Krug, Gryz or Moore should be traded? Again, with only $21m tied up in the D corps, I don't see why you can't keep them all on the roster this year.

A) I can buy the argument that there's a different perception in competition between an NHL regular and someone like in the example you used like Adam Clendenning. But I'm not sure that difference is worth the cost and lost contract flexibility that Moore represents. I'm glad you mentioned Nick Holden down below, because he only got 2 years from Vegas at a lower cap hit. Now, obviously a lot of factors go into the AAV so maybe the Bruins have to pay slightly more than he got in terms of cap hit but term? I think going five years on someone who has very little upside is pretty crazy. Especially when you factor in that $21 mil the Bruins are spending this season is going to shoot right up once McAvoy and Carlo get their new contracts that start next season.

B. You conceded this point so I'm not going to harp on it but I just wanted to point out that Moore's TOI doesn't really mean a whole lot. It really just tells us what John Hines thought of him and considering the rest of the Devils defensive corps, not exactly high praise. It also doesn't mean he did well with those minutes he was given (he didn't). Remember when Adam McQuaid was getting second pairing TOI%? That doesn't mean he belonged in that role.

C. Again, I'm all for getting depth -- even quality depth -- I just think that there is better value in the bargain bin of August than the premium prices you pay on July 1st.

D. Well, in my opinion Moore is the ideal healthy scratch, so I'm not in favor of trading anyone off the left side of the roster unless the return makes sense. I just think having 15% of the cap sitting in the press box is a mismanagement of an extremely valuable asset.

 

[maxl7]

What do all these terms mean? Net negative and pushing the needle.

Fact is, John Moore has averaged roughly 20 mins a night his last 3 seasons in NJ. So it took him a little longer to establish himself.

They know that they can't ask Chara to play the entire PK all game every game for 82 regular season games plus playoffs and expect it not to take it's toll. They wanted another left-shot caliber D-man who can take some of that load off. So they brought in Moore at a smaller cap hit in exchange for term.

Net negative meaning that when Moore is on the ice, his team gets worse in shots for/against, shot quality for/against, scoring chances for/against. He doesn't "move the needle" in any impactful way. At best he treads water, at worst his team suffers.

I mentioned this in my reply to Son of Donegal but just because a guy gets a lot of minutes doesn't mean he performs well in those minutes. It just means that either his coach thinks highly of him or that his coach felt like he didn't have any better options.

I'm all for getting a guy who can help on the PK but that skillset is so readily available that I see no reason to pay for a premium in term for it.

 

[ON3M4N]

The way I try to look at guys coming from another team is how did they rank on their previous team. Different teams play different styles and for some guys a certain style just doesn't suit their game. Anyways a few stats and where Moore ranked among NJD d-man last year (min 40 games / 6 d-man qualified):

TOI - 2nd
Blocks - 2nd
Hits - 1st
oiSV% - 2nd
Goals - 2nd
Assist - 4th
Shots - 1st
Shot% - 3rd
Thru% - 1st

His zone starts were nearly 50/50 last season and it looks like he was one of NJD better d-man asked to play top pairing minutes. In Boston he'll bonce around (depending on the situation) between the 2nd and 3rd pairing and play more of a supporting role. I know I've said it a few times in this thread, but I think Moore will surprise people and be a really good signing.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I'm 5'8 about 200 lbs, whenever I see someone else at work whose roughly the same height and weight as me, I typically say to myself "wow I really see some of myself in them", and when it comes to promotion time, I like to lean towards co-workers who are also the same height and weight as me.

just wondering if height/weight is an important part of your job? ive been an author... a car wash attendant... a taxi driver... a 7-11 manager... honestly height/weight don't play any factor at all in any of my jobs and I would never ever see myself in a coworker based on attributes that don't matter.

but ive worked alongside a few guys I thought were very honest... saw some of myself in them... wrote some stuff with a partner who was very creative... saw some of myself in her... worked with a few 'nice guys' and believe it or not im pretty nice and saw some of myself in them too.

I think you sort of mocked the op with your post. but I don't think its worth mocking. I have no proof that Sweeney is a huge fan of grzy or if he does identify with smaller dmen… but I don't think its ridiculous to suggest he might have more of an open mind then say a rob blake or a bob boughner might.

ultimately though its the coach that hands out the game starts and the icetime. I haven't heard of more than a handful of cases where a gm will try to override a coachs decesions with who plays. at worst maybe a gm will trade away a coaches binky and try to take away options... but ultimately gryz playing time is more up to Cassidy then it is to sweeney