Player Discussion John Carlson - Vol. 1

[traparatus]

Look. People understand your argument.....its not like you coming to some ethereal, mind blowing conclusion that only Einstein can follow.....they just Do Not Agree with it.

Crosby, Malkin, Letang,Fleury. They went on 7 years of not being able to win the cup after 2009. Many thought they would never do so again, and that they just didnt have it. It was all over the sports world (and certainly here on HF) that they should blow it up and start over.

Instead look what happened?

The Caps are certainly good enough. Quite a few teams are. But will they? Probably not. Maybe they do. But probably not. Doesnt mean they blow it all up and try to start from scratch...where they may look like Carolina or Edmonton or New Jersey or Calgary for a while. Or longer.

This team is top 10, arguably top 5. They get their acts together and are getting better as we sit here and debate Carlson. If they stay healthy, they have a terrific chance to win the Metro, and if they can avoid Pittsburgh, a terrific chance to break through.

Pretty easy to see that, for most of us.

Penguins underwent a team wide transformation in order to win 2 Stanley Cups. They did not keep banging their head against the same wall hoping that it will eventually crumble. That's what you and everyone else who Does Not Agree is advocating.

Penguins brought in Hornqvist, the best net front man in the league. Kessel, highest producing playoff winger in the league. Bonino and Cullen to create the deepest center group in the league and 4 scoring lines. Schultz, who was their #1 D-man last season. You know a right shot, right hand D who was acquired for a bag of peanuts? Oh, and they hired Sullivan who employed a system that nobody in the league had an answer to for a whole season.

Agree, don't agree. Sometimes if a core group is not cutting it, you have to change something up instead of saying 'Well, let's try exact same thing but with s**t back-up goalie.'

You think this core group is good enough to win the cup, good for you. I hope you are right and I'm wrong.

 

[maacoshark]

Penguins underwent a team wide transformation in order to win 2 Stanley Cups. They did not keep banging their head against the same wall hoping that it will eventually crumble. That's what you and everyone else who Does Not Agree is advocating.

Penguins brought in Hornqvist, the best net front man in the league. Kessel, highest producing playoff winger in the league. Bonino and Cullen to create the deepest center group in the league and 4 scoring lines. Schultz, who was their #1 D-man last season. You know a right shot, right hand D who was acquired for a bag of peanuts? Oh, and they hired Sullivan who employed a system that nobody in the league had an answer to for a whole season.

Agree, don't agree. Sometimes if a core group is not cutting it, you have to change something up instead of saying 'Well, let's try exact same thing but with s**t back-up goalie.'

You think this core group is good enough to win the cup, good for you. I hope you are right and I'm wrong.

You sound more like a Pens fan

 

[traparatus]

You sound more like a Pens fan

Penguins can burn in hell, for all I care.

There are lessons to be learned from other successful teams. It's ironic that a poster brought up Penguins as an example of a team that stayed the course while that's the exact opposite of what they did.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm going to let this debate be. I like Carlson and he will almost surely be re-signed.

If people do not understand the paradox that this team is in, so be it. Carlson, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Ovechkin, Holtby, Niskanen are all good players. They just don't add up to a Stanley Cup and surrounding them with continuously diminishing talent is unlikely to change that.

I understand the process all teams go through in cycles in pro sports. You want to try to head off this problem by trading away a top player in hope that the returned assets may (or may not EVER) pan out (and if so probably not for years).

You talk about weakening the depth, but removing Carlson is much more damaging. A roster including Carlson may not be the recipe for a Cup, but moves like selling off Holtby so Grubby can take over and selling off Carlson are moves that will have them missing the playoffs. That’s not how the last handful of years of Ovy’s career should be handled here in DC. Unless there’s a very compelling reason, you keep your best talents and fill in around them as best you can and do better in the draft and development.

 

[RandyHolt]

Joe Finley?

We assume Carlson wants to be here, but maybe not. The choke thing must be tiring. Alzner his buddy is gone. MJ is in Jersey. He should get higher offers elsewhere. My gut is that we sign him, but it will be around July 1 and he will be expensive. Oshie Part 2. We like our core.

But his play still comes across as lazy to me, except that handful of times we see him at high speed on the rush. Is there no one in FA around 5M less skill but busts ass, that can replace him?

 

[Roshi]

Penguins underwent a team wide transformation in order to win 2 Stanley Cups. They did not keep banging their head against the same wall hoping that it will eventually crumble. That's what you and everyone else who Does Not Agree is advocating.

Penguins brought in Hornqvist, the best net front man in the league. Kessel, highest producing playoff winger in the league. Bonino and Cullen to create the deepest center group in the league and 4 scoring lines. Schultz, who was their #1 D-man last season. You know a right shot, right hand D who was acquired for a bag of peanuts? Oh, and they hired Sullivan who employed a system that nobody in the league had an answer to for a whole season.

Agree, don't agree. Sometimes if a core group is not cutting it, you have to change something up instead of saying 'Well, let's try exact same thing but with s**t back-up goalie.'

You think this core group is good enough to win the cup, good for you. I hope you are right and I'm wrong.

Within the same time period you give for the Pens - Caps have brought in Oshie, good for 30 goals and a heart & sould guy. They brought in SC winning experience and solified their dfence with Orpik and Niskanen. They brought in mister game 7 in Justin Williams. They brought in Eller to solidify their 3C position. They went all-in to acquire Shatty.

Its not like they are doing nothing. By all means we should have a cup already, but we just dont. Thats hockey, stuff happens. But its STILL not too late to win one or three with this core. Lets just see it through, we are this far anyways.

 

[Corby78]

Joe Finley?

We assume Carlson wants to be here, but maybe not. The choke thing must be tiring. Alzner his buddy is gone. MJ is in Jersey. He should get higher offers elsewhere. My gut is that we sign him, but it will be around July 1 and he will be expensive. Oshie Part 2. We like our core.

But his play still comes across as lazy to me, except that handful of times we see him at high speed on the rush. Is there no one in FA around 5M less skill but busts ass, that can replace him?

lol, I know what you mean. I think its just that Lazy Resting Face Carlson has, along with the smooth style he has. Backstrom kinda does that to me too. Where sometimes even during a great play its just seems so nonchalant.

 

[maacoshark]

Joe Finley?

We assume Carlson wants to be here, but maybe not. The choke thing must be tiring. Alzner his buddy is gone. MJ is in Jersey. He should get higher offers elsewhere. My gut is that we sign him, but it will be around July 1 and he will be expensive. Oshie Part 2. We like our core.

But his play still comes across as lazy to me, except that handful of times we see him at high speed on the rush. Is there no one in FA around 5M less skill but busts ass, that can replace him?

There is no one even close to Carlson.

 

[ovikovy817]

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

mo. what I


No. How good do they have to be to be good enough to win? They didn't win the last 2 seasons when they were as good as any cup team ever. You don't have to be dynasty Guy LaFluer Montreal good to win a cup. The Caps have been that good and didn't. Appears to me that the Caps will end up the 2 seed in the east. That's not good enough?

We had a 25% chance the past two years, now it's more like a 5% chance. It's the truth, this is statistics. There can only be one winner.

 

[maacoshark]

We had a 25% chance the past two years, now it's more like a 5% chance. It's the truth, this is statistics. There can only be one winner.

How do you figure we had a 25% chance of winning? Your numbers are obviously based on speculation. To have a 25% chance if winning means that you have made it to the final 4. Sounds like you are talking more about betting odds.
Its like someone posted that the Lightning have a 100% chance of making the playoffs. Well that just isn't true at all. It isn't 100% until they have clinched.

 

[Roshi]

We had a 25% chance the past two years, now it's more like a 5% chance. It's the truth, this is statistics. There can only be one winner.

We need a quadrant.

 

[crazy8888]

chances shmances, odds shmods.......... all this team needs is a goalie who can make timely saves and we already have at least one cup in the bag.

Every goalie the Caps had the past 10 years has crapped the bed in the playoffs year after year. Some had 1 good series and then crapped the bed. Some crapped the bed from the start.

But we never ever get timely saves for more than one round of the playoffs

 

[maacoshark]

chances shmances, odds shmods.......... all this team needs is a goalie who can make timely saves and we already have at least one cup in the bag.

Every goalie the Caps had the past 10 years has crapped the bed in the playoffs year after year. Some had 1 good series and then crapped the bed. Some crapped the bed from the start.

But we never ever get timely saves for more than one round of the playoffs

Holtby has played outstanding in the playoffs until last season. His GAA and sv% are outstanding. He didnt have a good playoff last season a lot of that was on the defence in front of him. The addition of Shattenkirk seemed to change the chemistry.

 

[hockeykicker]

 

[Ridley Simon]

Penguins underwent a team wide transformation in order to win 2 Stanley Cups. They did not keep banging their head against the same wall hoping that it will eventually crumble. That's what you and everyone else who Does Not Agree is advocating.

Penguins brought in Hornqvist, the best net front man in the league. Kessel, highest producing playoff winger in the league. Bonino and Cullen to create the deepest center group in the league and 4 scoring lines. Schultz, who was their #1 D-man last season. You know a right shot, right hand D who was acquired for a bag of peanuts? Oh, and they hired Sullivan who employed a system that nobody in the league had an answer to for a whole season.

Agree, don't agree. Sometimes if a core group is not cutting it, you have to change something up instead of saying 'Well, let's try exact same thing but with s**t back-up goalie.'

You think this core group is good enough to win the cup, good for you. I hope you are right and I'm wrong.

Oshie, Eller, Vrana, DSP, Chiasson, Djoos, Bowey, Stephenson.

All in the past 2 seasons. I'd say thats a huge change. The thing you do not mention w Pittsburgh is their youth (Sheary and Rust...and then Guentzel). Thats where the Caps have changed, just this year.

Its NOT more of the same. Sure, it wasnt necessarily by choice, but whatever. Caps lost 2 very close series to the best team in the NHL. It's easy to argue that they were 2nd best. It's easy to argue that minus the Pens, Ovy has 2 rings (or 3, back in 2009). BUT, he has none.

So....there is a school of thought that this years team, as it gels and improves, may actually be as good or better (read = different) than the last 2 years model. They have 40 games to improve, and there is room for it.....improvement. Couldnt really say that about the past 2 years teams.

AND Pitt has taken some significant steps back. Moreso than DC. Thats where my focus is. I dont much care about anyone else (even Tampa). If Pitt isnt in the way, it may be our turn. Sucks to have to worry about one team, but in the history of sports Champions, there are many scenarios where one team stood in another teams way...and once that team was gone? Plan the parade.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Penguins can burn in hell, for all I care.

There are lessons to be learned from other successful teams. It's ironic that a poster brought up Penguins as an example of a team that stayed the course while that's the exact opposite of what they did.

They did stay the course with their core. You rail on about people "missing the point", and you've done (or chosen to do) the same.

 

[twabby]

I appreciate MacLellan being candid about it, but it seems like a poor negotiating tactic to publicly say "we want him back no matter what."

Now, for a live look at Carlson and his agent:

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

How do you figure we had a 25% chance of winning? Your numbers are obviously based on speculation. To have a 25% chance if winning means that you have made it to the final 4. Sounds like you are talking more about betting odds.
Its like someone posted that the Lightning have a 100% chance of making the playoffs. Well that just isn't true at all. It isn't 100% until they have clinched.

Nope, President's Trophy winners have won the Stanley Cup 25% of the time. It's a fact, look it up.
As for the Lightning's odds of making the playoffs, it's 99.999%

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Come on Twabby, it’s no secret Carlson is having a great year. Poker faces don’t work in this scenario.

I’m fine letting the player know we really want to keep him as part of the core. I hate waiting to negotiate though.

 

[twabby]

Come on Twabby, it’s no secret Carlson is having a great year. Poker faces don’t work in this scenario.

I’m fine letting the player know we really want to keep him as part of the core. I hate waiting to negotiate though.

Yeah I'm not too bent up about it. I think both parties know that Carlson is valuable and that Washington isn't exactly brimming with depth at RD.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Holtby has played outstanding in the playoffs until last season. His GAA and sv% are outstanding. He didnt have a good playoff last season a lot of that was on the defence in front of him. The addition of Shattenkirk seemed to change the chemistry.

He hasn’t made the tough saves he needed to make for the Caps to advance for the last 2 years IMO. Good but not up to his abilities when they needed him most.

 

[crazy8888]

He hasn’t made the tough saves he needed to make for the Caps to advance for the last 2 years IMO. Good but not up to his abilities when they needed him most.

This is exactly what I'm saying. More than once this team was a timely save away from advancing. And not specifically in game 7's. Just in any playoff games in general there is a trend....calls do not go our way, we do not get timely saves for our goalies. And I'm not singling out Holtby, i mean everybody, From Varly to Theo to Holtby now....i can't think of many playoff series where our goalie outplayed the other teams goalie. Maybe the 2009 series against the Rangers and Holtby against the Bruins but other than that its been the other teams goalies that tend to outperform ours or at least come up with big moment saves when needed

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yep agreed....lacking clutch too often across them all. I think Holtby has the tools and the mental makeup, he just needs to put it together.

 

[traparatus]

Oshie, Eller, Vrana, DSP, Chiasson, Djoos, Bowey, Stephenson.

All in the past 2 seasons. I'd say thats a huge change. The thing you do not mention w Pittsburgh is their youth (Sheary and Rust...and then Guentzel). Thats where the Caps have changed, just this year.

Its NOT more of the same. Sure, it wasnt necessarily by choice, but whatever. Caps lost 2 very close series to the best team in the NHL. It's easy to argue that they were 2nd best. It's easy to argue that minus the Pens, Ovy has 2 rings (or 3, back in 2009). BUT, he has none.

So....there is a school of thought that this years team, as it gels and improves, may actually be as good or better (read = different) than the last 2 years model. They have 40 games to improve, and there is room for it.....improvement. Couldnt really say that about the past 2 years teams.

AND Pitt has taken some significant steps back. Moreso than DC. Thats where my focus is. I dont much care about anyone else (even Tampa). If Pitt isnt in the way, it may be our turn. Sucks to have to worry about one team, but in the history of sports Champions, there are many scenarios where one team stood in another teams way...and once that team was gone? Plan the parade.

I think our core group of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Carlson and Holtby has been given every chance under the sun to succeed. Management surrounded them with exceptional depth players. They couldn't get it done, couldn't even get close. That's where I'm going to look for answers. If you don't seize your opportunity against a team missing its #1 d-man, #1 goalie, Crosby missing a game, you don't have what it takes.

As far as the team not playing the same, they look like a carbon copy of last year's team but slightly worse in every aspect of the game.