Joffrey Lupul & James van Riemsdyk, proving others wrong

[Leafidelity]

I don't think people outside of this board look at the end result of a trade after 9 games.

They may have sold him for cheap but they needed a defender. Schenn played very well last year, but let's just take his TOI for him this year cause that makes the trade look better for us.

Very well is stretching it. The word you're looking for is serviceable. For comparison, JVR - as a forward - almost had as much ice as Schenn last season.

 

[Garbs]

They may have sold him for cheap but they needed a defender.

They needed a better one. And now on top of still needing a defender, they need a top 3 LWer as well. Oops. Nothing quite like trading to fill a need, not actually filling that need, and creating a new team need in the process.

There was no addition by subtraction. I don't think you understand the saying.

 

[IBeL34f]

They needed a better one. And now on top of still needing a defender, they need a top 3 LWer as well. Oops. Nothing quite like trading to fill a need, not actually filling that need, and creating a new team need in the process.

There was no addition by subtraction. I don't think you understand the saying.

To be fair, we could use a guy like Schenn right now as well. I love the trade, and think we're hands-down the winners, but we also could use a right-handed, physical stay-at-home Defenseman right now, and under a coach like Carlyle he would have been real sweet to watch fully develop in the Blue and White.

Like I said, I'm a big fan of the trade and wouldn't take it back, but it'll still sting me a bit to watch him play for the Flyers, one of my most-hated teams.

 

[BIitz]

Very well is stretching it. The word you're looking for is serviceable. For comparison, JVR - as a forward - almost had as much ice as Schenn last season.

He was their 2nd best defensemen for them last year and logged the 2nd most minutes by defenseman on their team.

Great, their mintues were allocated evenly. Also, 2 minutes is not "almost as much ice"

They needed a better one. And now on top of still needing a defender, they need a top 3 LWer as well. Oops. Nothing quite like trading to fill a need, not actually filling that need, and creating a new team need in the process.

There was no addition by subtraction. I don't think you understand the saying.

Umm at the time of the trade they had Matt Read, Brayden Schenn, and Scott Hartnell playing better than JVR. He was a third line forward there.

Again, they brought in a top 4 defenseman last year for a 3rd line forward. Guess that's not addition by subtraction though.

What do you even mean by "top 3 LWer"? A top 9 LWer? He didn't work on any line as a LW.. I even remember them trying him on RW with Jags and Giroux and he couldn't produce.

 

[veedubn1]

By the end of the year we'll see;

JVR = 60+ points

Lupul = 70+ points

veedubn1 = 1900 posts & 100% facts


Book it.

 

[Ari91]

He was their 2nd best defensemen for them last year and logged the 2nd most minutes by defenseman on their team.

Great, their mintues were allocated evenly. Also, 2 minutes is not "almost as much ice"



Umm at the time of the trade they had Matt Read, Brayden Schenn, and Scott Hartnell playing better than JVR. He was a third line forward there.

Again, they brought in a top 4 defenseman last year for a 3rd line forward. Guess that's not addition by subtraction though.

What do you even mean by "top 3 LWer"? A top 9 LWer? He didn't work on any line as a LW.. I even remember them trying him on RW with Jags and Giroux and he couldn't produce.

Are you going based off of what you've seen of Schenn for yourself or what you've heard from Flyers fans? And do they mean he was legit good or was he great by comparison? I know they were happy with him but I'm just asking because I recall a time when Leafs fans thought Tim Brent was awesome because he was a great PKer on an awful PK team. Relativity does influence our perception.

You're also trying to make your argument based on what each player was to their team. JVR did have injury issues and today, I wouldn't say any of those guys are better than JVR. Did Carlyle sprinkle some magic dust on his Leafs equipment? Is that why he 'suddenly' became such a great player? Or maybe JVR's position in Philly compared to Toronto is a combination of patience and utilizing him better. Now I see plenty of Flyers fans wishing that the team hadn't given up on him so quickly and those who say they're okay with the trade are disappointed that management undervalued him.

 

[Meatleaf]

By the end of the year we'll see;

JVR = 60+ points

Lupul = 70+ points

veedubn1 = 1900 posts & 100% facts


Book it.

2 out of 3 ain't bad

 

[BIitz]

Are you going based off of what you've seen of Schenn for yourself or what you've heard from Flyers fans? And do they mean he was legit good or was he great by comparison? I know they were happy with him but I'm just asking because I recall a time when Leafs fans thought Tim Brent was awesome because he was a great PKer on an awful PK team. Relativity does influence our perception.

You're also trying to make your argument based on what each player was to their team. JVR did have injury issues and today, I wouldn't say any of those guys are better than JVR. Did Carlyle sprinkle some magic dust on his Leafs equipment? Is that why he 'suddenly' became such a great player? Or maybe JVR's position in Philly compared to Toronto is a combination of patience and utilizing him better. Now I see plenty of Flyers fans wishing that the team hadn't given up on him so quickly and those who say they're okay with the trade are disappointed that management undervalued him.

Both

No I'm arguing that they added something they needed by subtracting something that, at the time, they deemed they didn't need because they had excess of it. Which is the whole point of the quoted post.

 

[BIitz]

By the end of the year we'll see;

JVR = 60+ points

Lupul = 70+ points

veedubn1 = 1900 posts & 100% facts


Book it.

Before the start of the season you said, and I quote "It's laughable that people think Morgan is ready for a spot with the big club."

Might want to change that to 99%

 

[Ari91]

Both

No I'm arguing that they added something they needed by subtracting something that, at the time, they deemed they didn't need because they had excess of it. Which is the whole point of the quoted post.

Which is what I said

You're also trying to make your argument based on what each player was to their team.

I only compounded on that thought but bringing up how circumstances can affect a player's status with his team.

I'm sure both teams traded with that thought process of addition by subtraction but I think hindsight is playing a factor in the discussion where people think that Flyers dropped the ball in their valuation of JVR. In fairness, a lot of Leafs fans thought that Flyers undervalued JVR even at the time of the trade.

 

[BIitz]

Which is what I said

I'm sure both teams traded with that thought process of addition by subtraction but I think hindsight is playing a factor in the discussion where people think that Flyers dropped the ball in their valuation of JVR. In fairness, a lot of Leafs fans thought that Flyers undervalued JVR even at the time of the trade.

Yeah I agree, that was the whole premise of my argument. The previous poster claimed that "I don't understand what it was", in reference to addiction by subtraction.

Either way, I'm happy as a leaf fan, but Schenn gets a bad name here. I have no ill will to previous players, and for the life of me don't understand why posters want our former players to "fail" just so we can justify a trade as "won"

 

[Ari91]

Yeah I agree, that was the whole premise of my argument. The previous poster claimed that "I don't understand what it was", in reference to addiction by subtraction.

Either way, I'm happy as a leaf fan, but Schenn gets a bad name here. I have no ill will to previous players, and for the life of me don't understand why posters want our former players to "fail" just so we can justify a trade as "won"

I don't think it's always about rooting for a former player to fail. Schenn was one of those players that fans were emotionally invested in. He was popular during his time in Toronto and because of that, plenty of fans were willing to be patient with him and give him the benefit of the doubt. However, Schenn always had his critics but it flew under the radar until he was traded. With Schenn gone, fans could no longer hide behind the patience mantra or giving him the benefit of the doubt. That opens up the doors for his critics to loudly say 'I told you so'.

 

[BIitz]

I don't think it's always about rooting for a former player to fail. Schenn was one of those players that fans were emotionally invested in. He was popular during his time in Toronto and because of that, plenty of fans were willing to be patient with him and give him the benefit of the doubt. However, Schenn always had his critics but it flew under the radar until he was traded. With Schenn gone, fans could no longer hide behind the patience mantra or giving him the benefit of the doubt. That opens up the doors for his critics to loudly say 'I told you so'.

All very true. But I still think Schenn has potential to be a quality defender in this league. I think what you're saying is true, but a lot happens in a few years, which is why I always roll my eyes when people declare this trade "won".

Either way, happy to have JVR. I actually bought his jersey before the season last year because I'd been a fan of his for a while. He was actually the first prospect I followed.

 

[Ari91]

All very true. But I still think Schenn has potential to be a quality defender in this league. I think what you're saying is true, but a lot happens in a few years, which is why I always roll my eyes when people declare this trade "won".

Either way, happy to have JVR. I actually bought his jersey before the season last year because I'd been a fan of his for a while. He was actually the first prospect I followed.

I get what you're saying. It's annoying when people get caught up in trying to prove that x team won or lost a trade. If you're okay with what you're team gave up to acquire a certain player, then that's perfectly fine but no need to go out of your way to take away from what the other team got. Different teams have different needs.

I usually don't keep up with former players but at the time of the trade, I felt that Schenn didn't make sense for Philly. He certainly has potential but I think he's a stay at home D who has limited offensive upside and isn't a great skater. Putting him in a run and gun system where the forwards have little defensive accountability and the D are expected to jump into the play - you aren't maximizing his strengths. Schenn is the kind of player who I think has the potential to look great in a system that slows down the rush and has everyone falling back into position rather than constantly be left to dry with odd man rushes.

 

[Joey Hoser]

He was their 2nd best defensemen for them last year and logged the 2nd most minutes by defenseman on their team.

Great, their mintues were allocated evenly. Also, 2 minutes is not "almost as much ice"



Umm at the time of the trade they had Matt Read, Brayden Schenn, and Scott Hartnell playing better than JVR. He was a third line forward there.

Again, they brought in a top 4 defenseman last year for a 3rd line forward. Guess that's not addition by subtraction though.

What do you even mean by "top 3 LWer"? A top 9 LWer? He didn't work on any line as a LW.. I even remember them trying him on RW with Jags and Giroux and he couldn't produce.

IIRC, Schenn is a center, Hartnell plays the right side, and Matt Read certainly doesn't make JVR expendable.

 

[7even]

JvR has been amazing as a Leaf. He looks like a real threat for 30+ goals this season. One of my favourite players on the team. He's just got it all -- size, skill, shooting, and playmaking.

 

[JackJ]

With Lupul it's staying healthy and JVR its consistency. No reason either player can't overcome their shortcomings.

 

[zeke]

Schenn stinks. People, including gms, just overrate physical dmen by a ridiculous amount.

He managed to play borderline top4 minutes on some bad defenses, but was quickly relegated to #6 dman minutes by all three of his nhl coaches.

 

[Garbs]

Again, they brought in a top 4 defenseman last year for a 3rd line forward. Guess that's not addition by subtraction though.

What do you even mean by "top 3 LWer"? A top 9 LWer? He didn't work on any line as a LW.. I even remember them trying him on RW with Jags and Giroux and he couldn't produce.

Addition by subtraction is when simply removing a player from a team is a benefit to the team. It could be cap space saved, the promotion of a better younger player, the removal of a bad character negatively influencing a dressing room, or just simply the guy is terrible and was a factor in games lost. That kind of distinction is not meant for players like James van Riemsdyk.

Since trading him, they've been worse in the standings, saved minimal cap space, have no offense to speak of, and no players have emerged in his place. There is literally nothing you could point to that would suggest the Flyers are better off without JVR than they were with him.

 

[zeke]

Addition by subtraction applies to the leafs and schenn, actually.

Schenn was playing ahead of franson. Subtracting schenn meant adding more franson = addition by subtraction.

Subtracting jvr meant more talbot for the flyers...that's subtraction by subtraction.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

JVR for Schenn was a steal!

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Jvr looks dynamic with Kessel, they just seem to read each other extremely well. It seems like bozie is just there for the defense.

 

[JGuardz]

credit to /u/thefak on the leafs reddit

JVR is the best playmaker when he's on his back/stomach/on the ice

 

[Phion Keneuf]

credit to /u/thefak on the leafs reddit

JVR is the best playmaker when he's on his back/stomach/on the ice

Haha that's awesome!

JVR is magic near the net

 

[Leaf Rocket]

credit to /u/thefak on the leafs reddit

JVR is the best playmaker when he's on his back/stomach/on the ice

bahaha that's freaking awesome! i freaking love it though, the big man has smooth ass hands!