Joe Sakic - Redeemed as an NHL GM?

[hooverdam]

Didn't they rebuild in a relatively traditional way? Sold off Duchene/ROR, got 1st/2nd overall picks, drafted well with the other top 10 picks, acquired extra picks/prospects

Not quite. The timeline was really:

- rebuild (resulting in Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnon)
- sign a bunch of older vets to compete after Roy's first season
- suffer vengeance from the PDO monster for a few seasons and miss the playoffs, getting top 10 picks
- historically bad 16-17 season that put them at a crossroads

ROR/Stastny were traded/let go because of contract issues, not because the team intended to take a step back and rebuild on purpose. Duchene was traded because he didn't want to be on the team anymore. None of those were trades that said "we can't win with this core, let's sell it off" like Edmonton did with Hall/Eberle or Buffalo keeps doing every 2 years or the Senators have been doing throughout 2018.

Sakic resisted that. He locked down MacKinnon, slogged through a contract dispute with Barrie and then kept him, backed off on trading Landeskog. Duchene was traded and that was pivotal, but he wasn't traded so the Avs could be a bad team and tank/save money the way Karlsson just was.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Sakic is the new Yzerman.

 

[Korpse]

tank/save money the way Karlsson just was.

Based on some of the comments made regarding Karlsson trade, there's probably alot more to it than that

 

[cgf]

Timmins is amazing, too. Avs are gonna go from one of the weakest defensive lineups in the league to one of the strongest.

Girard is showing he can be a #1.
Johnson, when he’s on, is definitely a top-pairing guy.
Barrie and Zadorov are great top-4 guys who perform separate special teams roles exceptionally well.
Cole and Nemeth are highly consistent and well-rounded players who I think would form the 3rd pair for pretty much every team in the league.
Cale Makar is an elite prospect. Timmins had an outstanding conclusion to his junior career.

The Meloche disrespect is real...

 

[hooverdam]

Based on some of the comments made regarding Karlsson trade, there's probably alot more to it than that

Well obviously Karlsson wasn't traded to tank, the Sens don't have their own first rounder. The Sens want to rebuild and get their youth in there, though, so it's still a "traditional" rebuild in the sense that they're selling core players off and replacing them with ELCs and cheap depth. It's just more financially motivated.

No team in their right mind trades a guy like Karlsson with the intention of making their team better and winning a Cup. Sakic was pretty much forced to trade ROR and Duchene; they weren't the kind of players you move heaven and earth to retain when you can sacrifice a bit of the present for bigger payoff in the future instead, which is what's playing out right now. Karlsson didn't have to be traded and wouldn't have been traded from a well-run, non-rebuilding team looking to compete.

 

[FlameChampion]

Yeah I got to say I was wrong on him. Avalanche are starting to look legit. Good chance they will be an elite team in 2 years time.

 

[easton117]

I really like the way they play.

Fast enough to give other teams fits.

Careless enough to give away scoring chances.

I’d hate yet love it if they were my team but fun to watch anyways.

Like another poster said give them 2ish years on this trajectory and they’ll be a terror out there.

 

[These Are The Days]

Sakic has bungled his way through the whole thing and has been saved by the grace of MacKinnon and Dorion being under orders to acquire Duchene as a stopgag to paying Turris.

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

 

[nightonthesun]

That 16-17 defense corp still makes me want to weep.

It’s remarkable how he bounced back from some weird moves and put this together. I remember thinking that the burning wreckage of his strange partnership with Roy was gonna consume him.

 

[AvsFan29]

Sakic has bungled his way through the whole thing and has been saved by the grace of MacKinnon and Dorion being under orders to acquire Duchene as a stopgag to paying Turris.

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

Lol

 

[Spilot23]

Two add up that got off the radar last season are probably Nemeth(waiver) and Kerfoot(college free agent). They both played amazing hockey over our expectation. Also Cole and Calvert are turning to be such great adds for defensive help. Right now we still lack of secondary scoring but I'm freaking happy how Sakic managed to build this team. I thought that the criticism he got was not deserved that much yes he did some bad moves adding aging vets along with those contracts but overall I'm glad that people are seeing him differently after that Duchene trade. Kudos Sakic

 

[Pilky01]

I assumed this was going to be a post about how Sakic was such a great player and doesnt get enough accolades for it. I skimmed the post very confused at the lack of stats from his era.

 

[cgf]

Sakic has bungled his way through the whole thing and has been saved by the grace of MacKinnon and Dorion being under orders to acquire Duchene as a stopgag to paying Turris.

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

And this isn’t even mentioning how lucky he was that the ROR trade fell into his lap, that he was gifted Rantanen in the draft, that Kerfoot / Andrighetto / Nemeth just showed up on his doorstep, & that they’ve accidentally drafted really well with their extra picks over the past 3 drafts since they upgraded the scouting staff & replaces Pracey...

Joe is soooooo good at being lucky

 

[MaxDummy]

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

The luckiest thing to happen for Sakic was Roy taking his shit and going home

 

[These Are The Days]

There were many who wanted Sakic out a year ago and now suddenly he's great? I'm pretty sure a user called Joe Sakic fan was the lone supporter at a point. So basically everyone over reacted then?

I'll just file those "He's gonna screw up the Duchene trade" posts into the "never happened box" along with the fact that he had to wait for Ottawa to demonstrate peak incompetence to salvage it along with Mack lugging the team on his shoulders.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Sakic has bungled his way through the whole thing and has been saved by the grace of MacKinnon and Dorion being under orders to acquire Duchene as a stopgag to paying Turris.

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

Huh ? As i recall, it was Dorion who asked Melnyk if he could trade for Duchene, not the other way around.

We can say he got lucky with the return, but he doesn't get it if he's not the most patient human being on the planet. Reality is waiting out the bidding war worked in his favor, and that's a credit to him. You also have to know how to negotiate.

And as far as MacKinnon goes, sure, nobody expected him to be quite this good, but at the same time he could've been traded when everybody was calling out for heads to roll and end up dominating somewhere else now.

Not sure what you mean by bungled, i don't recall many bad moves by him to be honest. Maybe things didn't start out that well, but considering his lack of experience as a GM he sure showed a lot of poise in turning things around.

 

[crazyliver]

Your talking it was magic to replace half their roster without losing draft pics.

Trades: duchene for a good haul (good job Sakic), Iginla (traded for a cond 4th and 50% retained salary,a meh trade), Martinsen (traded for Andrighetto, decent trade), and McLeod (traded for an AHLer who left in free agency)

Not signed: Grigorenko, Comeau, Borque, Mitchell, Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercoch, Goloubef, all left in free agency for no asset returns

Bought out: Beauchemin

Expansion draft: Pickard

All Sakic did was wait out his contracts, or bought/waived them out. He made a good Duchene trade and possibly a good Martinsen trade however you look at it. A GM is not a good GM due to 1 good trade. I guess you can give credit to him to not sign the guys he let go, but they are all pretty bad players that he likely signed himself!

 

[These Are The Days]

Huh ? As i recall, it was Dorion who asked Melnyk if he could trade for Duchene, not the other way around.

We can say he got lucky with the return, but he doesn't get it if he's not the most patient human being on the planet. Reality is waiting out the bidding war worked in his favor, and that's a credit to him. You also have to know how to negotiate.

And as far as MacKinnon goes, sure, nobody expected him to be quite this good, but at the same time he could've been traded when everybody was calling out for heads to roll and end up dominating somewhere else now.

Not sure what you mean by bungled, i don't recall many bad moves by him to be honest. Maybe things didn't start out that well, but considering his lack of experience as a GM he sure showed a lot of poise in turning things around.

100/100 times I would say you're right but the Duchene saga amongst other things dragged for a year. No one would give Sakic what he wanted and in any other situation his hands would've remained tied. He had to wait and it resulted in a bad season where everyone called for his head. The rest is going to have to play out.

 

[tucker3434]

Sakic has bungled his way through the whole thing and has been saved by the grace of MacKinnon and Dorion being under orders to acquire Duchene as a stopgag to paying Turris.

This isn't a job well done it's literally the luckiest thing to happen to a GM possibly ever

This could be applied to pretty much every GM.

Turns out, good players make GM’s look good. Bad players make GM’s look bad. Who’d a thunk it?

 

[hooverdam]

Your talking it was magic to replace half their roster without losing draft pics.

Trades: duchene for a good haul (good job Sakic), Iginla (traded for a cond 4th and 50% retained salary,a meh trade), Martinsen (traded for Andrighetto, decent trade), and McLeod (traded for an AHLer who left in free agency)

Not signed: Grigorenko, Comeau, Borque, Mitchell, Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercoch, Goloubef, all left in free agency for no asset returns

Bought out: Beauchemin

Expansion draft: Pickard

All Sakic did was wait out his contracts, or bought/waived them out. He made a good Duchene trade and possibly a good Martinsen trade however you look at it. A GM is not a good GM due to 1 good trade. I guess you can give credit to him to not sign the guys he let go, but they are all pretty bad players that he likely signed himself!

Trades aren't the only thing a GM can do to improve the roster. All of that garbage was replaced with good NHL players via waivers, free agent signings, and our farm team, in addition to trades. Also, deciding to let those players go as opposed to signing some because they would be cheap and "shelter" young guys was a good choice that not every GM would've necessarily made.

 

[Brobust]

The Duchene deal will go down as one of the all time great trades.

Shows that patience pays off.

 

[cgf]

Your talking it was magic to replace half their roster without losing draft pics.

Trades: duchene for a good haul (good job Sakic), Iginla (traded for a cond 4th and 50% retained salary,a meh trade), Martinsen (traded for Andrighetto, decent trade), and McLeod (traded for an AHLer who left in free agency)

Not signed: Grigorenko, Comeau, Borque, Mitchell, Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercoch, Goloubef, all left in free agency for no asset returns

Bought out: Beauchemin

Expansion draft: Pickard

All Sakic did was wait out his contracts, or bought/waived them out. He made a good Duchene trade and possibly a good Martinsen trade however you look at it. A GM is not a good GM due to 1 good trade. I guess you can give credit to him to not sign the guys he let go, but they are all pretty bad players that he likely signed himself!

How is trading a non-NHLer for a nifty middle-6 scorer just a decent trade? The Martinsen-Andrighetto trade was a steal...as was the Duchene trade...and the ROR trade. Even the Grubauer trade was a good value as well...using our cap space nicely to lower the cost of acquisition. And you're not including any of his good additions outside of trades, almost all of which came on the cheap; Soderberg, Kerfoot, Calvert, Nemeth, Nieto.

All while building a top 10 prospect pool that will be adding Ottawa's unprotect 1st to our own set of picks.


PS - getting rid of Iginla was a positive, he was washed on the ice & being a dick in the locker-room during that clusterf*** of a season.

 

[Silky mitts]

Didn't they rebuild in a relatively traditional way? Sold off Duchene/ROR, got 1st/2nd overall picks, drafted well with the other top 10 picks, acquired extra picks/prospects

I feel like he deserves credit for many good methods - trading for futures with a team with a bad owner, trading for an albatross contract in Orpik to plug a hole without using a 1st rounder, signed free agents with some playoff production to short term contracts when they were ready to contend

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Your talking it was magic to replace half their roster without losing draft pics.

Trades: duchene for a good haul (good job Sakic), Iginla (traded for a cond 4th and 50% retained salary,a meh trade), Martinsen (traded for Andrighetto, decent trade), and McLeod (traded for an AHLer who left in free agency)

Not signed: Grigorenko, Comeau, Borque, Mitchell, Colborne, Tyutin, Wiercoch, Goloubef, all left in free agency for no asset returns

Bought out: Beauchemin

Expansion draft: Pickard

All Sakic did was wait out his contracts, or bought/waived them out. He made a good Duchene trade and possibly a good Martinsen trade however you look at it. A GM is not a good GM due to 1 good trade. I guess you can give credit to him to not sign the guys he let go, but they are all pretty bad players that he likely signed himself!

Sure, anyone can let bad players walk, that's not the point. The point is all the players he's brought in to replace those guys are contributing to the team, and the players he kept turned it around.

He could've easily go out and try to turn the ship around by trading all kinds of assets to acquire expensive players to play key roles. Instead he's done low-to-no cost moves like claiming people off of waivers (Nieto, Nemeth, Barberio), getting players for good value via trades (Grubauer, Wilson and Andrighetto for 2nd, 4th + Martinsen), signing players who are a fit on the team and fill specific roles (Cole, Calvert), trades where he gave up good players he got back players who fill a need on the team (Girard, Kerfoot), guys who were brought up from the minors are players who he drafted or acquired earlier and let's not forget every single player he kept on the team turned out to great.

You can't tell me turning practically AHL team with some NHL'ers to a good NHL team in like 1.5 years, and actually end up gaining value in terms of assets in the end is easy. If it was, we wouldn't have teams sucking for years.

I guess the point is Sakic hasn't made a bad move since people realized the Avs were going to suck in 16/17. That's usually the time when GM's are under the most pressure to make those bad moves, so the fact that Sakic has been awesome since then to me is impressive. Also he's used like every method possible for a GM to acquire players.

 

[cgf]

Sure, anyone can let bad players walk, that's not the point. The point is all the players he's brought in to replace those guys are contributing to the team, and the players he kept turned it around.

He could've easily go out and try to turn the ship around by trading all kinds of assets to acquire expensive players to play key roles. Instead he's done low-to-no cost moves like claiming people off of waivers (Nieto, Nemeth, Barberio), getting players for good value via trades (Grubauer, Wilson and Andrighetto for 2nd, 4th + Martinsen), signing players who are a fit on the team and fill specific roles (Cole, Calvert), trades where he gave up good players he got back players who fill a need on the team (Girard, Kerfoot), guys who were brought up from the minors are players who he drafted or acquired earlier and let's not forget every single player he kept on the team turned out to great.

You can't tell me turning practically AHL team with some NHL'ers to a good NHL team in like 1.5 years, and actually end up gaining value in terms of assets in the end is easy. If it was, we wouldn't have teams sucking for years. Sakic has basically used every methot possible to make the team better

I guess the point is Sakic hasn't made a bad move since people realized the Avs were going to suck in 16/17. That's usually the time when GM's are under the most pressure to make those bad moves, so the fact that Sakic has been awesome since then to me is impressive. Also he's used like every method possible for a GM to acquire players.

Only correction. Kerfoot was signed as an FA, not officially traded for. Though we signed him from NJ's system and they signed Butcher from ours, so we did end up swapping prospects, even if no trade officially happened.