Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part III (Updates in First Post)

[Pokecheque]

We'll probably never really know who was responsible for what bad decisions the first four years, but managing a professional sports team is a difficult job to do well and like anything else, a person can get better with experience. Fact is mistakes is how people grow and learn. It's kinda weird how in the sports world a segment has been conditioned to hyper scrutinize every mistake like it's unacceptable. It should be more common for fans to expect nothing more than learning from mistakes for players coaches and GMs. Not sure there's a GM who has clearly exhibited that more than Joe Sakic.

Well, we can attribute a few of them.

The decision to sign Francois Beauchemin was largely driven by Roy--apparently he negotiated the deal independent of Sakic, though to be fair, Sakic still had to sign off on it.

The decision to draft A.J. Greer is attributed to Roy as well.

HOWEVER, the decision to override Rick Pracey and draft Nathan MacKinnon in 2013 is also attributed to Roy, and really, that almost trumps everything else, doesn't it?

 

[Foppa2118]

We're not 100% sure who was the driving factor behind what, and how much the other party agreed. Sakic could have been in 100% agreement with whatever moves are attributed to Roy.

And we can just as easily attribute some positive things that Roy wanted but was prevented from doing, that would have made the team better. They're not 100% fact but they're just as solid as the negative possibilities mentioned.

- Roy clearly wasn't Duchene's biggest fan. Sakic waited until after Roy was gone to move him.
- Roy was reported to have received a phone call from Sakic while he was golfing the day before the ROR trade and was heard talking about ROR and was visibly unhappy afterwards. So we might have kept ROR over Duchene if it were up to Roy.
- Roy knew the defense was the Avs Achilles heel, but Sakic was unable to land key UFA's or finalize trades for one.
- Roy was rumored to want to trade up for Sergachev instead of drafting Jost.
- They were very reluctant to draft defenseman in the 1st round but then took two defenseman at #4 after Roy left, and have traded for two young defenseman in Girard and Toews since.
- Roy was a big Varly fan. It's not clear that either of Grubauer or Francouz are better or less injury prone.
- Sakic was rumored to have turned down a package involving Duchene (probably with a plus) for Chabot+Zibanejad.

Sakic has done a great job of late, possibly with help from MacFarland, but I think people wrongly assume most of the bad moves were Roy's idea. I think the assumption stems from the difference in their personalities, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[AnimalMother73]

All I know is the number of bad trades and signings dropped significantly after Roy left. Doesn’t mean Roy alone was responsible but it is telling. Also it would be interesting to know who influenced McFarland’s hire. Was it driven Sakic, Roy or both. If it was Sakic this all makes sense to me in that Sakic understood their limitations at the time and acted to improve them.

 

[5280]

One attribute of successful people is the trait of being able to surround themselves with people who they can trust and who make them better. On that front Sakic’s seems to have done a marvelous job.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Did you give him a 5? I haven't changed my mind from 4 to 5 quite yet.

No 5 until a cup

 

[Foppa2118]

One attribute of successful people is the trait of being able to surround themselves with people who they can trust and who make them better. On that front Sakic’s seems to have done a marvelous job.

And we're hearing more and more about MacFarland gaining notoriety around the league.

 

[5280]

And we're hearing more and more about MacFarland gaining notoriety around the league.

Right, exactly

 

[Avsboy]

And we're hearing more and more about MacFarland gaining notoriety around the league.

Especially around Columbus

 

[TheDangerBowen]

Wonder what the man could have gotten for ROR now that he has his super super gm skills

 

[McMetal]

Wonder what the man could have gotten for ROR now that he has his super super gm skills

He got Brandon Saad, that's not too shabby.

 

[MonsterMack]

I'm betting that Sakic and Roy just had very conflicting versions of the team they wanted to build, and the 50/50 (or whatever ratio) partnership for the time Roy was here led to compromises that made the overall team worse.

 

[McMetal]

I'm betting that Sakic and Roy just had very conflicting versions of the team they wanted to build, and the 50/50 (or whatever ratio) partnership for the time Roy was here led to compromises that made the overall team worse.

Yeah, the lack of consistent vision besides "get players we like together" was readily apparent in those years. Once Sakic took over, that was when we saw the #youngerfaster vision take hold and led us to where we are now.

I do kind of wonder what Roy would do if given a real NHL shot as GM somewhere. As I've said recently, the key to building a winner is having a consistent vision. We know going 50/50 with him and Sakic didn't work, but I do kind of want to see what kind of vision Roy had.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think what it really comes down to is both Roy and Sakic were a couple years late to realize how much the new rules changed the game, and the players you need to have success.

So they placed more value in one dimensional guys that were a little slow footed, like Stuart, Guenin, Beauchemin, and Wilson on defense, and guys like Tanguay, Iginla, Comeau, Gabe Bourque and Cliche up front.

They also used guys that could skate but were too one dimensional and played too high in the depth chart, like Holden, Redmond, PAP, and Mitchell.

Combined with poor drafting and an inability at the time to bring in top UFA's or finalize important trades, along with a terrible D core, and it was a recipe for the team staying mediocre.

In todays NHL, unless a guy is an elite scorer, you need to build your team around multi dimensional players that can skate well. I think MacFarland helped convince Sakic of this.

I don't think Roy necessarily was upset with MacFarland role, but rather that Roy didn't have control over the team to improve it, and was being turned down for trades to improve the defense, while being the first fall guy as the coach.

 

[Pokecheque]

I still say it’s impossible for the arrangement the Avs had with Sakic and Roy to work, doesn’t matter who is occupying the two chairs.

 

[PAZ]

I still say it’s impossible for the arrangement the Avs had with Sakic and Roy to work, doesn’t matter who is occupying the two chairs.

I think it could, if say it was Greg Sherman and anybody else.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think it could, if say it was Greg Sherman and anybody else.

Don’t agree there for two reasons.

1. I am assuming you mean for the “Sherman” role to be that of capologist while the head coach did all the heavy lifting. That’s not the arrangement the Avs had with Roy and I think the ambiguity about where that line was is what dooms any sort of setup like that.

2. Sherman never really proved to be any good at cap management.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I'm betting that Sakic and Roy just had very conflicting versions of the team they wanted to build, and the 50/50 (or whatever ratio) partnership for the time Roy was here led to compromises that made the overall team worse.

Knowing Roy’s personality I doubt he wanted to take a patient approach to team building lol.

 

[Richard88]

Avs rank 2nd overall in The Athletic's ranking of overall contract efficiency, up from 16th last year. Only Boston rank higher.

By the numbers: Grading every NHL team's contract efficiency, 2020 edition

 

[LostInMosEisley]

Saw this article linked in an Athletic piece briefly discussing Sakic's evolution to being considered one of the worst GMs in the league to being one of the best:
Pierre Lacroix interested in Avalanche return: Report

This rumor slipped by me at the time. All I can say is, thank goodness this did not come to pass. Not only because Sakic turned it around and now looks like a great GM, but Lacroix was not someone who adapted to changing times at all. He gets a ton of credit for being the GM when they won two Cups, but honestly it was a little like the Julian BriseBois situation in Tampa, where they essentially inherited a team loaded with talent and made the final moves to make them a Cup winner. But Lacroix's failure to adapt was a big part of the reason the Avs entered into a decade of futility shortly after the salary cap was instituted.

 

[95snipes]

I'm betting that Sakic and Roy just had very conflicting versions of the team they wanted to build, and the 50/50 (or whatever ratio) partnership for the time Roy was here led to compromises that made the overall team worse.

With the benefit of hindsight, that's all but confirmed

 

[Foppa2118]

With the benefit of hindsight, that's all but confirmed

It's not really clear they had different ideas of what team to build. They could have been on the same page for all the moves early on.

I think Joe started to be a bigger believer in speed at the expense of size when MacFarland came in, though it's not clear whether Roy was opposed to that idea either. I think he was just opposed to continuing on with stop gap moves, rather than sufficiently improving the defense.

Sakic was still in patient Joe mode, and Roy was being blamed for the team's failures as the head coach so he left, rather than go through another losing season where he'd most likely get fired at the end anyway.

 

[95snipes]

It's not really clear they had different ideas of what team to build. They could have been on the same page for all the moves early on.

I think Joe started to be a bigger believer in speed at the expense of size when MacFarland came in, though it's not clear whether Roy was opposed to that idea either. I think he was just opposed to continuing on with stop gap moves, rather than sufficiently improving the defense.

Sakic was still in patient Joe mode, and Roy was being blamed for the team's failures as the head coach so he left, rather than go through another losing season where he'd most likely get fired at the end anyway.

The Tanguay trade most likely. The MacKinnon pick I would believe. Once we start playing the tape after that, I'm not so sure.

The Stuart trade, the Berra trade, the Beauchemin signing, etc etc all scream Patrick Roy.

It's no coincidence that once Roy left, Sakic's moves almost look like a 180 in comparison to previous moves made and the Avs franchise started to take a turn for the better. Maybe I'm the one doing mental gymnastics here, but I'm convinced that Roy had a big say early on and given the (lack of) success with stated moves, he had less and less pull to the point that he decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

 

[Foppa2118]

The Tanguay trade most likely. The MacKinnon pick I would believe. Once we start playing the tape after that, I'm not so sure.

The Stuart trade, the Berra trade, the Beauchemin signing, etc etc all scream Patrick Roy.

It's no coincidence that once Roy left, Sakic's moves almost look like a 180 in comparison to previous moves made and the Avs franchise started to take a turn for the better. Maybe I'm the one doing mental gymnastics here, but I'm convinced that Roy had a big say early on and given the (lack of) success with stated moves, he had less and less pull to the point that he decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

The Berra trade was Allaire's idea. Sakic also played against Stuart and Beauchemin for a lot of his career, including three times against Stuart in the playoffs, and once against Beauchemin. He knew how hard they were to play against, and this was likely a big part of bringing them in.

Sakic also decided to extend Stuart immediately after trading for him. Which is more a move a GM would plan for than a coach.

Sakic was GM the entire time. Even if Roy came up with an idea, it was Sakic's decision on whether to go with it or not.

We've seen how Sakic will wait years and not make trades until he gets pretty much exactly what he wants. It's a stretch IMO to think that he could be that stubborn in getting what he wants, but would also just be a rubber stamp and do whatever Roy wanted.

 

[tigervixxxen]

They are still trading for third goaltenders.

It’s not just Sakic vs. Roy but there’s also the factor of the old school Quebec guys like Brad Smith’s influence as the head pro scout (let’s just call him what he really is director of player personnel) and then Billington’s influence as the GM of the AHL his priority is to win there so that also colors decisions.

Sakic has been able to stick to a more unified vision since Roy’s departure. I think they had similar ideas but a lot different thoughts on executing them.

Speaking of, Sakic was fairly candid in this interview covering pretty much all parts of his career and he does go into the differences with Roy a bit.

 

[LTC Pain]

Super Joe is getting recognition: NHL Power Rankings: Ranking the NHL general managers